The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ENOCH2010]

That's a new one even for the pre-tribbers, to say that the 144,000 are demon worshipers. All I can say is wow !!!

[Montana Marv]

That's a new one even for the pre-tribbers, to say that the 144,000 are demon worshipers. All I can say is wow !!!

They are included in the  "Rest of Mankind", are they not.  The 144,000 do their work in the Mill., not the Trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

First part of Rev 9 is about the 5th Trumpet (locust creatures from the abyss)...  The last half of Rev 9 is about the 6th Trumpet (army from the East), killing 1/3 of mankind..  v20 - These rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Scripture and literal.

 

Having Gods seal on their forehead are the 144,000 (Rev 7: 3,4), only means the locust like creatures cannot harm them.  It does not state what state of mind they are in.  Yes these 144,000 are most likely demon and idol worshipers also.  For these 144,000 are not sealed for what they do during the Tribulation, but for what they do during the Mill.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song. (During the Mill).  They are witnesses to God's Greatness and Loving Forgiving Kindness.

 

Being sealed and coming to know the Lord may take years and sometimes decades.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I said, you have not properly understood that Rev.9 Scripture. The locusts is a metaphor for certain men, "a nation"; our Lord first covered it back in the OT Book of Joel.

 

Per Rev.9, it is those who are NOT sealed with God's seal that cannot be killed. You've got it backwards.

Rev 9:3-5

3    And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4    And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5    And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

(KJV)

 

The 144,000 of Rev.7 are sealed with God's sealing (the "great multitude" is included by inference). They can be killed during the tribulation (5th Seal of Rev.6). It's the ones NOT sealed with God's seal that cannot be killed by those locusts.

 

The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe starting signals the start of the "great tribulation". That army there is STILL a part of the locusts symbology given in the first part of the chapter. In Joel 2 God called those locusts "My great army which I sent among you." It's about Satan's servants on earth who take control over all nations and peoples for the tribulation. It is NOT... about a literal military army. God uses the symbols of an army to show how they destroy SPIRITUALLY. That's why the later Rev.9 Scripture about that army says this about where their power is...

 

Rev 9:17-19

17    And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18    By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19    For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(KJV)

 

What comes out of one's mouth? Words. This locust army are not real locusts, they are men. They are not a real military army, but they operate like one. Their power is not with military weapons, their power is in their mouths using words that kill spiritually, causing spiritual deception. When the Antichrist comes, they will be working along side him, to deceive the whole world into worshiping him instead of waiting on Christ Jesus to come.

 

Another way we can know that timing on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe is tribulation timing and not a literal war (which those like Hal Lindsey think) is by what Jesus forewarned about war in Matt.24. He said we will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but... what? That last part of that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors leave out of what Jesus said. He said to not be troubled, for those things must happen, BUT "the end is not yet." What did He mean by that?

 

It's simple. As long as wars and rumours of wars are going on, then the very end is not yet (i.e., the tribulation timing). What's the opposite of wars kind of time? A time of peace (and there is no real peace).

 

Per the Book of Daniel about the coming false one, he is to cause craft to prosper in his hand, and will destroy many using 'peace'. In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul forewarned that when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety", then... sudden destruction will come upon them. That time of "Peace and safety" is the "great tribulation" time, because the majority of the world will be deceived into believing the Antichrist is God having returned. This is how we as believers on Christ Jesus will be the main target of persecution in that time here on earth, because Christ's elect will NOT bow in worship to the coming Antichrist, just as Daniel and his fellows refused to bow in worship of the gold idol Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon setup.

 

So the Pre-trib Rapture doctors and their published students (like Hal Lindsey) have got the Rev.9 locust army metaphor all wrong. It is not about a literal war with military weapons. It is about a spiritual war, the kind that's been going on since that old serpent in God's Garden, only for the tribulation, the very end of this world, that spiritual war will be advanced more than any other time in this world's history. And the Antichrist establishing world peace will be one of the ways they deceive the majority.

 

What war then do those like Hal Lindsey and the Pre-trib Rapture school confuse this Rev.9 event with? They confuse it with the battle on the last 'day' of this present world, when Jesus returns to fight Satan's hosts on earth at the battle of Armageddon. That's the battle the Pre-trib Rapture school has confused with this spiritual type battle with the locust army of Rev.9. With Armageddon, real military armies will come upon Israel to destroy on the last day of this world. But that is not 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. Armageddon is 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing.

 

That tribulation time has been shortened by Christ for our sake (Matt.24:22). It is no longer 7 years like the Daniel layout. The events will still occur per the Daniel layout, but compressed. Christ shortened it. And He told you how long if you paid attention in His Word (but I will not reveal it to you, but I will tell you it's right in front of you).

 

 

Deeper for those interested:

 

Rev.9:19 reveals the locust army's power is in their mouths, and also in their "tails". That is pointing directly back to the first part of the Rev.9 chapter with the description of the locust's stinging those not sealed with God's seal. We are told their sting and torment is as a scorpion upon the earth for five months.

 

Since God is using the locust as a metaphor for men which their power is in their mouths, then how does the scorpion tails as a metaphor apply to those locusts as men?

 

It's about spiritual deception: and the way a real scorpion on earth attacks its prey is the symbolic method God is using to get His Message across. So it helps to understand how a real scorpion attacks and devours its prey. The main difference to keep in mind is that God uses the scorpion there in Rev.9 as a metaphor for how those men deceive. That's what that 'stinging' upon those NOT sealed with His seal is about.

 

The Stinging - a real scorpion stings its prey with its tail, numbing the victim. Since the scorpion has no digestive system, it uses the victim's insides. The scorpion regurgitates a fluid into its victim which acts like an acid, turning the victim's insides to mush. Then the scorpion sucks it back up as food. God used the way the scorpion attacks and devours its prey to show how those locusts (men) will work upon the earth upon the deceived. THAT... is how those locusts will kill (spiritually) a third part of men. The rest of the men that were not killed by those plagues represent another third of men, not Christ's elect. In Zechariah we were shown two parts will be cut off and die, with one third brought through the fire to be refined and tried that will call on God's Name and saved.

 

In the Book of Joel God refers to the way real locusts work to describe how those men will operate upon His people for the end of days. That's why it's important to go slow in His Word and catch these kind of metaphors and symbols He uses from natural things of His creation. And that is especially important in His Book of Revelation because there are so many of them.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Salty

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

How wrong can your position be.

 

Locust of the 5th Trumpet is a metaphor for fallen angels, who come up out of the abyss.  They torment people for 5 months.  Their sting is like that of a scorpion.   The 6th Trumpet consists of 200 million horses and their riders who come out of the East and kill 1/3 of mankind.  (Where is this 1/3 of mankind during their travel from the East).  The 2/3's of Mankind which were not killed continued to worship demons and idols.   This kills the Post-Trib rapture theory.

 

Why do you continue to bring Hal Lindsey up.  You must really hate him,  He is a published fiction writer.  You have probably read more of his books than I have.  I read about 3/4's of his book, "The late great planet earth" and this about 40-45 years ago.  Don't put a tag on me.  For much of what I believe does not correlate to what Hal has written.

 

I would never take your position of a Post-Trib rapture.  It does not add up.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

First part of Rev 9 is about the 5th Trumpet (locust creatures from the abyss)...  The last half of Rev 9 is about the 6th Trumpet (army from the East), killing 1/3 of mankind..  v20 - These rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Scripture and literal.

 

Having Gods seal on their forehead are the 144,000 (Rev 7: 3,4), only means the locust like creatures cannot harm them.  It does not state what state of mind they are in.  Yes these 144,000 are most likely demon and idol worshipers also.  For these 144,000 are not sealed for what they do during the Tribulation, but for what they do during the Mill.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song. (During the Mill).  They are witnesses to God's Greatness and Loving Forgiving Kindness.

 

Being sealed and coming to know the Lord may take years and sometimes decades.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

This is really wrong.  The 144,000 are Gods elect, and not demon worshipers, as you claim.  Revelation 7 and 14 argue against your statement.

[Salty]

Salty

 

How wrong can your position be.

 

Locust of the 5th Trumpet is a metaphor for fallen angels, who come up out of the abyss.  They torment people for 5 months.  Their sting is like that of a scorpion.   The 6th Trumpet consists of 200 million horses and their riders who come out of the East and kill 1/3 of mankind.  (Where is this 1/3 of mankind during their travel from the East).  The 2/3's of Mankind which were not killed continued to worship demons and idols.   This kills the Post-Trib rapture theory.

 

Why do you continue to bring Hal Lindsey up.  You must really hate him,  He is a published fiction writer.  You have probably read more of his books than I have.  I read about 3/4's of his book, "The late great planet earth" and this about 40-45 years ago.  Don't put a tag on me.  For much of what I believe does not correlate to what Hal has written.

 

I would never take your position of a Post-Trib rapture.  It does not add up.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I see, so forget the Zechariah Scripture then I guess. Forget also what God's sealing of His servants for the end is about too. Let's also forget about Christ's saints still alive on earth that remain until the day of The LORD when Jesus comes to gather them too!

 

Why don't we also just move that 'day of The LORD' up to the time of Christ's 1st coming too, instead of His second coming? Afterall, that's what the Pre-trib Rapture has done by moving the time of His coming and gathering of the saints up to before the tribulation.

 

Let's just forget these too in bold and say they worship demons in the end, just because they are here for the tribulation...

Zech 13:8-9

8    And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

(KJV)

 

 

Let's just forget all about these too, the "very elect" of Christ's servants -

 

Matt 24:21-24

21    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23    Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(KJV)

 

I'll stop there, because if I kept going I'd have to practically quote about 1/4 of God's Word on how Christ's elect means His Church, and how we are still here on earth through that "great tribulation", all the way up to the very last day of this present world, when He comes to defeat Satan's hosts on earth and immediately taken reign over all kingdoms upon this earth.

 

Regarding Hal Lindsey, he is a writer FOR the Pre-trib Rapture movement. That's what his main themes in his books are about, just like the kind of thing Tim LaHaye does with his books.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Salty

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

The elect are the chosen ones (the remnant of Israel, the 144,000, others who did not receive the mark of the beast)  There are even elect angels. (1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels...)  OT saints and NT saints are also part of the elect.  Tribulation saints are also part of the elect.

 

One must also take into account that the 6th Trumpet happens to fall into place maybe 7 to 9 months before Armageddon. For they must travel from the East (maybe China) on horses across most of the East and Mid East to the Euphrates River, killing 1/3 of mankind as they made their journey.  About 1800 miles to the Euphrates River.  Then the 6th Bowl when the Euphrates River dries up allowing this army to journey another 700 miles to Armageddon.

 

The refining of the 1/3 of Israel  (Zech 13: 8,9) may happen during the last one or two months before Armageddon.  Demon and idol worshipers becoming God worshipers.  But not accepting Jesus Christ the Messiah until they see Him at the Second Coming.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Salty

 

The elect are the chosen ones (the remnant of Israel, the 144,000, others who did not receive the mark of the beast)

 

That's where you must stop, because you said those left per Rev.9 worship demons and such.

 

In Rev.7 the main subject at the start of the chapter is about God telling the angels that hold the four winds to not blow until God's servants are sealed with His seal. 2 groups are covered in that chapter, not just one like the 144,000 of Israel.

 

Because the 144,000 mentions a remnant from each tribe of Israel, that's an important clue. It's because only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and many of Levi actually make up the children of Israel called 'Jews' today. Per Bible history the majority of Israelites of the ten tribes were scattered and lost their heritage as being seed of Israel. No one can claim the ten tribes are those same Jews, because Bible history does not, nor does secular history from historians like Josephus. Because that 144,000 includes a remnant from each of the ten tribes also... that forces us to look closer at who all and where and what peoples that is pointing to.

 

If you really know your OT Bible history and prophecy about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes only after Solomon's days), then you will know they are involved in Apostle Paul's quoting from Hosea ("Osee") to believing Gentiles in his Epistle to the Romans involving Christ's Salvation The Gospel. That places those ten lost tribed "house of Israel" as being scattered among the Gentile nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as having in majority accepting Christ Jesus as The Saviour (there are of course other Bible prophetic references regarding that too).

 

Thusly -

A remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi = Jews ("house of Judah") - majority separation from The Gospel

 

A remnant of the tribes of Manasseh, Gad, Simeon, Ruben, Naphtali, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Aser = "house of Israel", in The Gospel of Jesus Christ among the Gentiles, but lost to themselves as Israelites.

 

Then Rev.7:9 - "great multitude" = Gentile believers on Christ Jesus in The Gospel.

 

All... of those, all those groups, are sealed by God for the end.

 

 

When Rev.7 says that "great multitude" came out of tribulation, having washed their robes in The Blood of The Lamb Jesus, that is not pointing to a pre-trib rapture. It is pointing to how they went through the tribulation and through Christ Jesus overcame, for to wash one's robes in Christ is go to through great persecution for Him in remaining a faithful servant.

 

When they are shown standing before the Throne with Christ, and then direct pointers are given of things related to Christ's Salvation AFTER... He returns, then that is a future look into Christ's Millennium timing ("thousand years" when His saints will stand on mount Zion with Him).

 

The Rev.7 Scripture does not tell you when that timing of those standing with Christ as the throne is, you have to know by understanding other Bible Scripture which covered those things, like when Christ stands upon mount Zion, which is on earth, when the sufferrings of this world are over, and when the "living fountains of waters" about God's River manifest on earth during Christ's future reign, etc. Even Rev.7:15 about the time when God will literally 'dwell with us' is a marker for the future Millennium reign and thereafter per Rev.21-22. So it's important to not just jump over all those time event markers given there.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Salty

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

Rev 7:9 - These are not Believers.  They are ones who did not take the mark of the beast, yet made it through to the end of the Trib.  These are to repopulate the earth so it becomes like the sand of the sea, when Satan deceives them again.  Rev 20: 7-9.

 

Why does Christ need to rule with a "rod of iron" if all who come out of the Tribulation are believers.  That is the point, He must rule with a "rod of iron" because they were all demon and idol worshiper at some point.  They need to be re-taught.  They need to follow instructions.  Zech 14:16,17 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain... v18 - The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts of the nation that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  This will be their punishment...

 

It is not all a bed of roses during the Mill

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

My words in BLUE -

 

Salty

 

Rev 7:9 - These are not Believers.  They are ones who did not take the mark of the beast, yet made it through to the end of the Trib.  These are to repopulate the earth so it becomes like the sand of the sea, when Satan deceives them again.  Rev 20: 7-9.

 

 

Now that's one of the wildest suppositions I've ever heard! Clearly I've wasted my time answering your posts, because you obviously have a lot of Bible study that needs doing.