Things the Bible does not say about the End Times

[pomegran]

I agree that these topics are not spelled out explicitly in the Bible. I have seen compelling arguments for some of them for opposing interpretations. Speaking from my own experience, I have not been to able to reach a solid belief on the existence and nonexistence of some of these "theories". I do agree that we should all examine any presupposed beliefs we have that have been taught to us and are not explicitly stated in the Bible.

 

I find that you'll come across many different motives in people believing these things. Some are positively convinced they see in various scriptures that these things are true. Concerning the "rapture", perhaps some believers are "escapists", and yet I don't think it's fair to apply that label to all pre-trib believers. I believe many sincerely see the "rapture" in scripture as some of the verses concerning it are ambiguous. Bottom line is that yes it's important for us to be aware of the beliefs we hold and their scriptural support, yet we should also not judge others on their beliefs when the Bible is not entirely clear on a subject. Labeling pre-tribbers as escapists is saying you know the intents of the heart, which only the Lord knows. Some of them very well may be escaping the idea of wrath, and yet some may be convinced it is in scripture, etc. etc. I'm saying this from a neutral position, because I'm still unclear on whether I believe in the "rapture" and likely won't know until I meet the Lord. Though I know He justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies us whether we believe in the rapture or not as we strive to understand His Word.

 

1 Corinthians 4:5

⁵ Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 Labeling pre-tribbers as escapists is saying you know the intents of the heart, which only the Lord knows. ome of them very well may be escaping the idea of wrath, and yet some may be convinced it is in scripture, etc. etc. 

 

I don't think I disagree with anything in your post pomegran, but I might object to your assertion, that I refer to pre-tribbers as escapists. If I did, then you are right, I should not label them such. However, just knowing how I tend to think, it is more likely that a referred to the theology or eschatology as escapism. It certainly is that, since it teaches some will escape the time of tribulation altogether. If that is what that belief system maintains, then it is escapism.

That being said, I am not convinced that my own beliefs rule out escapism of a different type.

It is possible, that beleivers will be present (aside from the so-called tribulation saints) during the great tribulation, and protected from Antichrist and his minions, are at least some may be, and I certainly believe, that to the degree than the wrath of God existed during that time, they the believers will not be victims to that. 

In the time of the Egyptian captivity, the Israelites were protected from the plagues. In the time of Noah, while the world was being destroyed around Noah and family, they were safe in the ark. The Hebrew young men in Daniel, were protected from the firey furnace, Daniel from the lions, Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah . . .  you get the idea. Certainly we can see, that God has a pattern of protecting His people, when that is what He chooses to do.

In non of the above cases, were those under His protection, removed from the nearness of danger, just protected. Perhaps that is how it will be at the end, but since the bible does not spell it out in detail, I take no position there that I have confidence in.

I have no quarrel with the idea that God may protect people, I kind of hope He does. I just do not like the idea that people see things that are not expressed in scripture, and then teach it as though it was a Biblically established fact.

Thanks for your contribution to the topic, even if it still, is not to the point of the O.P.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman 3.0.

 

Now in your opening presentation you said -
 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?

Following is a short list:



1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

 

 

God`s word does actually say that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is.

 

Marilyn. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Hi Omegaman 3.0.

 

Now in your opening presentation you said -

 

 

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?

Following is a short list:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

 

 

God`s word does actually say that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is.

 

Marilyn. 

 

I suppose Marilyn one could as easily say:

 

"God`s word does actually say that Jesus wants the Body of Christ to wear only purple, every Thursday. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is."

 

It is one thing to make a claim, another thing to prove is scripturally. If you have gathered the verses which demonstrate that it is very obvious that God's plan is that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation, then please, by all means, start a thread on that topic and demonstrate your claim. 

 

Once you have gathered these verses and developed a thesis which demonstrates that we can know that there will be a pre-trib rapture, come back here and post a link to that, so thousands of believers can know what you know, and end needless debate that has been going on since John Darby in the early 1800s.

 

I for one, will be very appreciative and also very impressed, that you have accomplished what John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight Pentecost, Hal Lindsay, Chuck Smith, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, Thomas Rice and hundreds of others have been attempting, and failing, to prove for nearly 200 years now.

[Larry 2]

Dear Brother Omegaman 3.0, I'll just give my thoughts I hope will give you some help.

 

Omegaman 3.0 -  1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 – The word “Rapture” is a coined word from Shakespeare meaning "to be transported by a lofty emotion or ecstasy" according to “Bible Food for Hungry Christians.”

Scripture uses the expression “Caught up” in the KJV such as we read in 1 Th 4:17.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 - Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do we get many of the times we profess? Scripture such as the following show how Israel was to count days of prophesy, and that at 360 days per year.

Ezekiel 4:6  . . . I have appointed thee each day for a year.  A week to them is 7 years of 360 days per year equaling 2520 days. Mid week would be at 1260 days such as we read of in Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 - You are correct; without the Holy Spirit would any be saved from that point?

But, we read in 2 Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

God will remove His bride before the temptation to come upon all the world. Rev 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

  

Omegaman 3.0 - 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

Larry2 - Correct again, but the second half of the tribulation includes God’s judgment and wrath.

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The first half of tribulation isn’t a picnic. Revelation chapter 6 is an index of things to come, and Matthew chapter 24 is very descriptive of that time.

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

Larry2 - 1 Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  A thief doesn’t advertise, thus probably the warning to His disciples.

 

Omegaman - 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

Larry2 - Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. We’ll sure know the results of Jesus’ coming for us when we are face to face with our Savior.   

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

[Omegaman 3.0]

OKAY Larry, to make this easy on myself, I am going to interject my reactions  just following your comment, you can recognize what I say by the text that looks like this.

Dear Brother Omegaman 3.0, I'll just give my thoughts I hope will give you some help.

 

Omegaman 3.0 -  1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 – The word “Rapture” is a coined word from Shakespeare meaning "to be transported by a lofty emotion or ecstasy" according to “Bible Food for Hungry Christians.”

Scripture uses the expression “Caught up” in the KJV such as we read in 1 Th 4:17.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

 

I am sorry that you think I might be ignorant of the word rapture. I am using it with the understanding that the people who are primarily viewing this thread, understand that in modern eschatologial circles, the word "rapture" is used to denote the event of the catching up of the church described in 1 Thess 4:17. We understand that the church will be caught up, I am just maintaining the the Bible does not state that it is before the Great Tribulation that Jesus referred to in Matt 24.

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 - Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do we get many of the times we profess? Scripture such as the following show how Israel was to count days of prophesy, and that at 360 days per year.

Ezekiel 4:6  . . . I have appointed thee each day for a year.  A week to them is 7 years of 360 days per year equaling 2520 days. Mid week would be at 1260 days such as we read of in Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

Again, you are taking me, it seems, to be a little less sophisticated than I might be, I know there is a 7 year period, mentioned in several places in several ways, described as a week as 7 years, and the equivalent number of days, and as a time, times, and half a time. Read my words carefully, and you will understand what I am saying, and what I am not. The term "great tribulation", as used by Jesus, in Matt 24 is used to refer to the period of time, which begins after the abomination of desolation mentioned in the book of Daniel (Matt 24:21). My point is that the Great Tribulation, as Jesus used it does not refer to a 7 year period, but a latter part of those years AFTER the desolation.

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

Larry2 - You are correct; without the Holy Spirit would any be saved from that point?

But, we read in 2 Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

God will remove His bride before the temptation to come upon all the world. Rev 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

Rev 3:10, never mentions a removal of any one, that is an interpretation, not the statement of scripture. To avoid a long explanation, to can go to if you choose.Similary I go into the in a video, or the essential text on the topic here.  Some like myself, fall asleep during the videos, lol, while other (like myself) hate to read.

  

Omegaman 3.0 - 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

Larry2 - Correct again, but the second half of the tribulation includes God’s judgment and wrath.

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The first half of tribulation isn’t a picnic. Revelation chapter 6 is an index of things to come, and Matthew chapter 24 is very descriptive of that time.

 

I do not disagree. My point in this thread, is that there are things, that people believe, that the bible does not say. In a similar manner, people are responding to things, that I also, have not said. Even though you are not responding to what I have challenged people to examine, you are at least filling in with a "yes, you are right - but".  I like that you are at least paying attention to what I actually said, and responding with a nice tone, as though I am not your enemy - thanks.

 

Omegaman 3.0 - 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

Larry2 - 1 Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  A thief doesn’t advertise, thus probably the warning to His disciples.

 

Sure Larry, He will return like a thief in the night, but in the context that you just quoted, it is specifically stated, that the day of the Lord (not necessarily Jesus at the rapture, though I think that is a fair assumption) will not come upon believers that way, but upon those who are in darkness. So again, like many, you responded to something I did not say - can you show me where Jesus comes in a secret rapture for the church? Or are you like me, and only able to find that language specified as a surprise to those who are not ready for His coming? Revelation also has Him coming like a thief, but that at the battle of Armageddon, which as I am sure you know, is not at some pre-trib rapture.

 

Omegaman - 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

Larry2 - Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. We’ll sure know the results of Jesus’ coming for us when we are face to face with our Savior.   

 Once more, you responded to to something I never said. To get my take on this and why I think it is improper to use Matt 24:36 this way, you should  in this thread.

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Thanks so much for providing more opportunity to make clear what I am saying and what I am not saying, about that the bible does not say, and especially for the contructive way, and gentle tone in which you have done this.

It just goes to show, that it is possible to not share the same views, and yet just be interested in the bible, and not so interested in the prideful way, some of us can get combative in the defense of what we believe.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Omegaman 3.0.

 

Now in your opening presentation you said -

 

 

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?

Following is a short list:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

 

 

God`s word does actually say that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

I suppose Marilyn one could as easily say:

 

"God`s word does actually say that Jesus wants the Body of Christ to wear only purple, every Thursday. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is."

 

It is one thing to make a claim, another thing to prove is scripturally. If you have gathered the verses which demonstrate that it is very obvious that God's plan is that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation, then please, by all means, start a thread on that topic and demonstrate your claim. 

 

 

Once you have gathered these verses and developed a thesis which demonstrates that we can know that there will be a pre-trib rapture, come back here and post a link to that, so thousands of believers can know what you know, and end needless debate that has been going on since John Darby in the early 1800s.

 

I for one, will be very appreciative and also very impressed, that you have accomplished what John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight Pentecost, Hal Lindsay, Chuck Smith, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, Thomas Rice and hundreds of others have been attempting, and failing, to prove for nearly 200 years now.

Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

I am very glad that you desire to hear what I have been taught concerning the Body of Christ. I would love to start a thread but am not wanting to come over as `teaching.` Am working on that though. Just wanted to say that in your OP you only made statements & we can all do that, but what is needed is, to actually do the work, to back up what we say. Thus can you back up by scripture to show that God`s purpose for the Body of Christ is to go through the trib/wrath?

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegama 3.0,

 

Just wanted to add this as an encouragement. Now you said -

 

 

`I for one, will be very appreciative and also very impressed, that you have accomplished what John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight Pentecost, Hal Lindsay, Chuck Smith, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, Thomas Rice and hundreds of others have been attempting, and failing, to prove for nearly 200 years now.`

 

We know that Jesus said -

 

`However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;....` (John 16: 13)

 

And if you have been around awhile & studied history we know that the Holy Spirit has been leading the Body of Christ into more & more truth. Thus we can expect Him to bring clarity to these issues that are being discussed today. As I said I was taught this truth (I believe) in the `50`s & `60`s by godly men who came out of the Welsh Revival & those they taught. Thus it is not `my teaching.` However I realise that it needs to be looked at carefully by others.

 

People may well ask, `why hasn`t it come to light before`. And I would say that each truth that the Holy Spirit has been bringing forth to the Body has come in it`s own right timing -

 

- Salvation by faith in Jesus` finished work,

- Baptism

- Anointing of the Holy Spirit & His giftings,

- Jesus` ascension gifts - Evangelist, Pastor/Shepherd, Teacher, Prophet, Apostle,

- The Eternal Purposes.

 

All these for the equipping & building up of the Body of Christ. And each truth has come through much opposition till finally it is received across most of the Body. Just think of the `Holy Spirit` awakening of the `60`s & `70`s, & the uproar that caused, especially in traditional churches. Now however you don`t get put out of a position in a church for that belief. So it is with each clarification of truth there will be opposition. Yet there obviously needs to be discernment as the enemy would always bring in the counterfeit.

 

Marilyn.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Hi Omegaman 3.0.

 

Now in your opening presentation you said -

 

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?

Following is a short list:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

  

God`s word does actually say that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is.

 

Marilyn.

 

I suppose Marilyn one could as easily say:

 

"God`s word does actually say that Jesus wants the Body of Christ to wear only purple, every Thursday. How do I know? Well we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then it becomes very obvious why God has planned a Body of Christ & what it`s purpose is."

 

It is one thing to make a claim, another thing to prove is scripturally. If you have gathered the verses which demonstrate that it is very obvious that God's plan is that there will be a rapture, a catching away of the Body of Christ before the 70th week & the great tribulation, then please, by all means, start a thread on that topic and demonstrate your claim. 

 

Once you have gathered these verses and developed a thesis which demonstrates that we can know that there will be a pre-trib rapture, come back here and post a link to that, so thousands of believers can know what you know, and end needless debate that has been going on since John Darby in the early 1800s.

 

I for one, will be very appreciative and also very impressed, that you have accomplished what John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight Pentecost, Hal Lindsay, Chuck Smith, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, Thomas Rice and hundreds of others have been attempting, and failing, to prove for nearly 200 years now.

Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

I am very glad that you desire to hear what I have been taught concerning the Body of Christ. I would love to start a thread but am not wanting to come over as `teaching.` Am working on that though. Just wanted to say that in your OP you only made statements & we can all do that, but what is needed is, to actually do the work, to back up what we say. Thus can you back up by scripture to show that God`s purpose for the Body of Christ is to go through the trib/wrath?

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

Ah, I understand what you are saying about not wanting it to come across as a teaching, and to that I say, good for you, that is a good thing to be sensitive to. I think though, all you really need to do to make that works is to say:

 

I have done considerable research over the years, on the subject to the end times and the purposed God has for His church. My studies have led me to some conclusions which differ from those of many others. Among these are 1,2, 3 etc, and the reason I think this is a,b, c. I would welcome your comments on what you think about these ideas.

 

Something along those lines, makes it a sharing of ideas, and not the teaching of doctrine, don't you think?

 

Yes, in my OP I have only made statements, in fact, statements of some things that some others beleive, and the only thing I really had to say there, is that I do not see where these ideas are really scriptural.

 

So there, I did not give scripture to back up my beleifs, because I was not even stating what my beliefs are. In point of fact, that is not at all about what I beleive, it is about asking others to provide scripture for what they believe. I don't know why I should need to provide scripture for a view I am not even promoting.

 

Of course, the way various posters have gone off topic, and sort of forced my hand now and then, had led me to produce scripture, but for the most part, that is to show how the assertions of others who are not really here to debunk my claims about what the bible does not say, but are here to pitch their own belief system.

 

I see it this way, if they believe the things they do, and if those beliefs are on my list, all they need to do, is to show, with scripture that I am wrong on those claims. If they have a scriptural basis for those beliefs, how hard can it be to just back it up with scripture? My contention is, that those beliefs are not scripturally based, though I am certain that they are sincerely held beliefs, and most of the time, those who hold them likely think they are in scripture. I do not think that any of those who have tried to take up my challenge to prove me wrong, are attempting to deceive anyone.

 

However, the pre-trib rapture is a very seductive doctrine. To be truthful, I see it a lot like the doctrines of those who claim, God wants you to be financially rich in this life, and always healthy. I am sorry , but as appealing as those doctrines are, I do not think they are found in scripture either.

 

What happens is, that we hear them, and if we are not well versed in scripture, and that familiarity is not well seasoned with years of experience of rightly dividing the word of truth, then we tend to accept them. As I said, they are very seductive ideas.

 

Of course, if we hear these ideas early in our walk, especially from authority figures like parents, pastors, bible teachers, television and radio programming. seminary professors, theology books etc., we could easily make those things part of our personal beliefs. Then, whenever we read a passage of scripture, we read it through the glasses of what we think we already know to be true. Over time, these things are so ingrained, that to change our mind, is harder that changing our mind about the existence of gravity.

 

So, since I broke out of that mindset myself, and came eventually to see my own errors, I feel a bit of an obligation to try to help others, to rethink their positions, starting fresh from scripture, and not leaning to their own understanding, but let God do the talking, through the pages of His word. I don't really want to convert people to what I think, but I do want them to rethink, what they think, and see if it really aligns with scripture.

 

Personal experience, in spite of what some claim, is that people do indeed change their minds. I have had 6 people here on  Worthy, tell me over the last decade, that they have indeed changed their minds on this topic, not becuase of the fact that I had persuasive argument that they could not resist, lol, but because I did get them thinking about these things. Maybe there have been a few others as well, I do not know, but half a dozen have let me know that. It is a lot of effort, and not a lot of rewards for it in this life, maybe not in the next either. More often, I manage to get people a little mad at me, one has called me a theological liberal, two have called me a heretic for my efforts. I certainly do not do this because I enjoy those aspects of this. Other just brush me off as a conceited and arrogant, pushy advocate of wrong headed ideas. Gee, this is so much fun.

 

It is just as easy, to help atheists to become Christians (in my experience) as it is to get Christians to reconsider their ideas. Not just on eschatology, but all sort of things. We may have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, but we are still a stiff necked lot I think. 

One last thing, let me address your comment:

 

what is needed is, to actually do the work, to back up what we say. Thus can you back up by scripture to show that God`s purpose for the Body of Christ is to go through the trib/wrath?

 

In my opinion, it is not my task to show or to discover what God's purpose is for the Body of Christ to go through the trib/wrath. I think that approach is the wrong approach. If I try to start second guessing what God's purpose is, I will likely lead myself into error. I do not need to know WHY God does something, or WHY He says something. My task is to learn WHAT He says, and then to accept it. I have done quite a bit of work to learn that, but when someone asks my WHY God does something, I usually fail to answer the question, because much of the time, I think God has not said why. Frankly, He is sovereign and it is not my business to know all of His thoughts.

 

This different way of looking at things, may or may not be the right way to look at things, but it is my conviction that this is how I should look at things.

 

When a person approaches bible study with questions like:

 

What is the purpose of tongues, or what is the purpose of the tribulation, or why would a loving God, send anyone to Hell, I find they often come to different conclusions that I do.

I do not need to know why, I need to know what God says will happen, or what God says to do etc, if I go beyond that, I am way out of my league.

 

So, I have come to my conclusions not so much, becuase I can prove anything I believe in eschatology, but because I can eliminate some ideas as not scriptural, and therefore unworthy of my beleive, but probably more becuase, I choose the position, that I think has the least amount of problems with it. That position might be different tomorrow, I am still learning.

 

Sigh, side tracked again! Oh, and by the way, yes, I can back up my thoughts by scripture, on the terms I just suggested, not in determining His purpose, but just looking at what He says will transpire. Those thoughts are on this forum in lots of places, but mostly the are just a collection if ideas, that seem to be the most natural understanding of verse at least in the limited way I think, with the least amount of contradicting verses. 

 

In my opinion, obviously others strong ly disagree, if someone were to make a list of the 9 things, or whatever that I believe, that scripture does not say, they might be able to make a list as difficult for me to deal with as this list has been for others. That being said, I think if I were to post my reasons why I believe them, using scripture, mine would at least be (I think and hope) staying within the context of there passages.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, I imagine you all are getting a little tired of me by now, I know that I am tired of me. I think perhaps I will end the thread maybe about this time tomorrow, just to be a coward and bail myself out of any further trouble. So, if you have anything other to add, now would be a good time.

 

If I do not see you before then, thank you everybody for your contributions to and interesting thread, at least, I found it interesting.