Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[Spock]

Marilyn, your point is noted.

however, John is trying to make a point here. The point is- this body of believers now wearing white robes in Rev 7 did not come from one location, but throughout MANY nations. In other words, all faithful believers from any NATION is caught up to meet the Lord.  

Im not sure how John would have given us that message if he had to leave out the word NATIONS and substituted another word to convey its meaning. 

Nevertheless, I believe Rev 7 shows the raptured saints.  Where is Revelation do you see the rapture mentioned?

thanks,

spock

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

I'm curious how people see just one coming that lumps both the rapture and the return to earth on the same day. This is so illogical to me, why isn't it illogical to everyone? (Shrugs shoulders.....)

Why is it illogical?  It follows the pattern of the ascension.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

It only makes sense to me that He descends to the clouds, and then to the earth.  That happened while the disciples were watching, on the same day.

It's also worth remembering that those who are raptured are immortal.

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

if God had planned for only those who are supposedly "worthy" to be caught up together with Christ, then we would certainly have some indication of that in these passages, as well as 1 John 3, John chapter 14, and others.  

Yet, it seems that's what you advocate with your second group, the "tribulation saints" B team.

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why is it illogical?  It follows the pattern of the ascension.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

It only makes sense to me that He descends to the clouds, and then to the earth.  That happened while the disciples were watching, on the same day.

It's also worth remembering that those who are raptured are immortal.

Honestly, this doesn't connect with me. Apples to oranges. Sorry.

spock

[Last Daze]

7 minutes ago, Spock said:

Honestly, this doesn't connect with me. Apples to oranges. Sorry.

spock

Not yet anyway.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

Marilyn, your point is noted.

however, John is trying to make a point here. The point is- this body of believers now wearing white robes in Rev 7 did not come from one location, but throughout MANY nations. In other words, all faithful believers from any NATION is caught up to meet the Lord.  

Im not sure how John would have given us that message if he had to leave out the word NATIONS and substituted another word to convey its meaning. 

Nevertheless, I believe Rev 7 shows the raptured saints.  Where is Revelation do you see the rapture mentioned?

thanks,

spock

Hi Spock,

Since you are a scholar & a gentleman,    I will write more details in answer to your question. I`ll start with the Rev. 7 Great Multitude.

 

THE GREAT MULTITUDE.

`After these things I looked & behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all the nations, tribes, peoples & tongues, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, & crying with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne & to the Lamb!”......

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, & washed their robes & made them white in the blood of the Lamb....` (Rev. 7: 9, 10 & 14)

The Holy Spirit gives us the details of these people to show us who they are.

 

All the nations – tribes, peoples & tongues.

White Robes – righteousness through Christ. (saved)

Palm Branches – representing the `Feast of Tabernacles.` (God with us.)

 

`you shall celebrate the feast of Tabernacles.....& you shall take for yourselves...branches of palm trees...& you shall rejoice before the Lord..` (Lev. 23: 39 & 40)

 

This is fulfilled with the `Feast` of Tabernacles when the Tabernacle of God comes down (Rev. 21: 3) & the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,..` (Rev. 21: 24)

 

THE BODY OF CHRIST.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, even as I overcame & sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

We see here that these people will be `overcomers,` & `sit with Christ on His throne` (with His authority). Then we are shown these people sitting with Christ around His throne.

`Around the throne were 24 thrones, & on the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting, clothed in white robes; & they had crowns of gold on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)

 

 

24 Elders – (2 x 12) Highest Government.

On Thrones – Kingpriests.

Around Jesus` Throne – Body of Christ.

Clothed in white robes – Made holy through Christ`s blood.

With Golden Crowns – Victor`s,  overcomers.

 

 

They sing the new song –

“You...have redeemed us to God out of every tribe & tongue & people & nation, & have made us kings & priests to our God,..` (Rev. 5: 9)

 

There are more than 24 tribes, tongues etc, so the 24 elders are representative of the whole Body of Christ. They have come out of the nations, but are shown in great detail as kingpriests, with golden crowns around Christ`s throne. This is their promised inheritance, to rule & reign with Christ on His throne,(seat of power & authority) far above all.

 

These overcomers are at Christ`s investiture seeing Him receive all `power & riches & wisdom & strength & honour & glory & blessings.` (Rev. 5: 12) This amazing sight is also recorded in Daniel ch. 7. There we see Christ as the Ancient of days & thrones being set up. This is the heavenly court that will judge the world system.

 

`I watched till thrones were put in place, & the Ancient of days was seated;....The court was seated.....& they shall take away his (A/C) dominion, to consume & destroy it forever.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10,  & 26)

 

The Body of Christ has been told that they will judge the world system.

 

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? (1 Cor. 6: 2)

 

The two descriptions – Great Multitude & Overcomers (24 Elders) are quite different as they show God`s different purposes for the Nations & for the Body of Christ.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

[Ezra]

22 hours ago, Spock said:

Ezra,

To just dismiss Laodicea as all unbelievers is too convenient and easy to do. I don't like easy explanations.

Well, think about it for a moment. It is Christ (who knows the hearts of all) who says that all of them were wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.  These words are describing the spiritual condition of unsaved people.

To be "naked" is to be without the robe of Christ's righteousness. To be blind is to be without the unction of the Holy Spirit.  To be poor is to be without the riches of Christ. To be miserable is to be without the hope of eternal life.  To be wretched is to be burdened with sin and guilt.

How do we know that all this is true? Well just look at the things which Christ then offers: (1) gold = eternal riches (the inheritance of the saints; (2) white raiment = the righteousness of Christ; (3) eye-salve = the gift of the Holy Spirit, who removes our spiritual blindness. All wretchedness is removed when we possess these things.

On top of that, and to confirm that Christ was addressing the unregenerate, He says that He stands at the door of this church (and every heart within that church) AND KNOCKS. This is the strongest evidence, since Christ need not knock on the door of a believer's heart.  He is already within (Christ in you, the hope of glory).

[Omegaman 3.0]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

however, John is trying to make a point here. The point is- this body of believers now wearing white robes in Rev 7 did not come from one location, but throughout MANY nations. In other words, all faithful believers from any NATION is caught up to meet the Lord.  

Im not sure how John would have given us that message if he had to leave out the word NATIONS and substituted another word to convey its meaning. 

nations, ethnous in Greek:

http://biblehub.com/greek/ethnous_1484.htm

The word occurs 6 other times

John 11:51 and 52
Acts 2:5
Acts 10:22
Act 28:19
Rev 5:9

[Ezra]

On 13/01/2016 at 8:12 PM, Spock said:

Anyhow, there is scriptural evidence to possibly show the rapture is not for all believers. Maybe you can entertain that possibility as you reread the scriptures. 

That possibility is ruled out be several facts (1) all must be transformed and glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture (2) all must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, (3) all must give account, (4) all must receive rewards (or not), and (5) all must become the Wife of the Lamb at the Marriage of the Lamb. This is also why the Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be on the same day.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

Not sure what happen to you post, I read it, but cant see it now. You asked `Why do the Great Multitude stand,` whereas the 24 Elders (B/C) sit?`

 

`Standing` refers to serving. `Therefore they (Gt. Multitude) are before the throne of God & serve in his temple.` (Rev. 7: 15)

`Sitting` however, refers to having authority. `To him who overcomes (B/C) I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,` (Rev. 3: 21) `The court was seated..` (Dan. 7: 10)

 

Marilyn.