Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[ghtan]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

You don't, and that in itself is a clue. Some try to squeeze the Rapture out of Revelation 14:14-20, but that is totally incorrect and misleading.  That section deals with wrath ("the great winepress of the wrath of God").

This means you realise the pre-trib use of John’s ascension in Rev 4:1 to symbolise the rapture is untenable. That is an important admission. On the other hand, would the only book in the bible fully devoted to the end time give no indication of the timing of the rapture? I doubt it.  

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, Ezra said:

You don't, and that in itself is a clue. Some try to squeeze the Rapture out of Revelation 14:14-20, but that is totally incorrect and misleading.  That section deals with wrath ("the great winepress of the wrath of God").

Those are two separate reapings as you have previously stated.  Now you try to lump them together and stir them up so they both come out "wrath"?  You've yet to substantiate the first reaping as having anything to do with wrath or judgment.  Rightly divide.  Don't mish-mash.

[WilliamL]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Get to know and to hear the Shepherd very, very well. And then do what he says as soon as he says it. Starting now, not sometime down the road, when things suddenly get dicey. Because

"that Day ... will come as a snare [i.e., will spring quickly] on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth." Luke 21:35

 

20 hours ago, simplejeff said:

sure,  that's 'easy' for sheep who know the Shepherd's voice,  ((even though the vast wickednesses and evil around every one in the world is  vexing every day;  i.e. it's not a comfortable place to live))

but what can those who have no peace nor joy do ? TODAY, most people on earth depend on their family and those around them - how can they ever hope to find the Shepherd Jesus ?   Who can they turn to ? 

 

You come close to the Lord by reading his Word -- "when you get into the Word, the Word gets into you" -- and by "praying without ceasing," and by separating yourself from the world, even if need be from relatives who follow in the ways of the world. These are the primary tests every true disciple of Christ enters into.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Matt. 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

[SINNERSAVED]

33 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

 

You come close to the Lord by reading his Word -- "when you get into the Word, the Word gets into you" -- and by "praying without ceasing," and by separating yourself from the world, even if need be from relatives who follow in the ways of the world. These are the primary tests every true disciple of Christ enters into.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Matt. 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

Amen to that brother.

[Retrobyter]

On August 8, 2015 at 3:31 AM, firestormx said:

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

 

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

 

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

Firestormx

Shalom, Firestormx.

No, these are not two different comings; they are two different STAGES of the one coming at the beginning of the Millennium.

When He is gathering His elect (His chosen ones) in Matthew 24:29-31, He is gathering His army to fight with Him, the Son of man or the true Human Being, in the Rescue of His people, Israel. (And, they ARE "His people," because they are His FAMILY.)

By the way, the translations are often out of sync with the Greek as a translation of the Hebrew. The Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta, and pronounced "gay") is translated as "earth," but it is also a translation of the Hebrew word "erets," which is most often translated "land," in the OT, specifically the "Land of Israel." Thus, the phrase "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn" can also be translated "then shall all the tribes of the LAND mourn," and since "tribes" means "families," it could also be translated "then shall all the families of the Land mourn." This is a quote of Zechariah's prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

In Matthew 25:31-32, the key phrase is "then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory." This is AFTER the Rescue of His people, and it is at this time that the war tribunal will be called.

All of the nations who participated in that war of the Rescue shall be represented as the "sheep," those who sided WITH Israel, and the "goats," those who sided AGAINST Israel. Those who sided WITH Israel shall be brought into the Kingdom as tributary nations and inherit the rights of His Kingdom, the Kingdom from the Sky. Those who sided AGAINST Israel shall be IGNORED by the King, and as a NATION, they shall be resigned to the future punishment (but they are not AT THAT TIME thrown into the fire)! They may still side with the King INDEPENDENTLY, that is, against their own nation's doom on a one-by-one basis, but it will probably cost them their homes, their friends, and their families to leave their countries.

One must remember that the Millennium, which occurs BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment, is different than the Eternal State after the Great White Throne Judgment. AFTER the GWTJ, there will be no more tears, death, mourning, crying, or pain. However, BEFORE the GWTJ, the King of Israel, in the process of becoming the King of Kings or World Emperor, will be subduing all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:20-28). It is only the LAST of His enemies (death) that will be subdued at the END of the Millennium just after the GWTJ. Thus, the Millennium is a time of CONFLICT and SUBJUGATION! It will be a time of ALTERCATIONS and SQUELCHED REBELLIONS! (See Psalm 2:1-12.)

The "Judgment Seat of the Messiah (the Christ)" won't just be a "few years" "in heaven" "before the Millennium." It will last for a THOUSAND YEARS because the King of Israel has always been a SUPREME COURT JUDGE, just like Solomon was (2 Kings 3:16-27). It will be right here on earth, namely, in the Land of Israel, and it will be DURING the Millennium. And, depending on our trustworthiness (our faithfulness), we shall be "kings and priests" who reign with Him, that is, we will serve as lesser judges, judging the simpler matters, escalating difficult matters to men of more wisdom than ourselves and ultimately, if warranted to the King of Kings Himself. 

That's the nature of the Millennium.

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...One must remember that the Millennium, which occurs BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment, is different than the Eternal State after the Great White Throne Judgment. AFTER the GWTJ, there will be no more tears, death, mourning, crying, or pain. However, BEFORE the GWTJ, the King of Israel, in the process of becoming the King of Kings or World Emperor, will be subduing all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:20-28). It is only the LAST of His enemies (death) that will be subdued at the END of the Millennium just after the GWTJ. Thus, the Millennium is a time of CONFLICT and SUBJUGATION! It will be a time of ALTERCATIONS and SQUELCHED REBELLIONS! (See Psalm 2:1-12.) ...

Good stuff, Retrobyter.

1 Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 1/13/2016 at 7:05 PM, Spock said:

I like almost everything you said Watchman. Nice job. Clap clap.

the one thing you said that made me frown was you said maybe the sheep and goat judgment happens 1000 years later.

i have not been convinced this judgment happens after the Millenium, and still believe it to happen just before it begins. In other words, I see this judgment occurring right after Armageddon, just before Jesus begins his Millenium rule. 

 

Hi Spock

 

Thanks for the Clap clap.

 

And I'm sure that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel that your frown will be turned upside down. I just can't think of a single reason for me to attempt to bring you over to my way of thinking. But I can think of many reasons not to even bother about it because it really doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things. This Worthy forum has the nicest people and I'd rather not cause them any consternation by becoming a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal..  

 

The one question I do have is that how can the sheep and goat parable take place before His Millennial rule?  Aren't the goats the rest of the dead who do not come to life until the thousand years are finished? Won't Caiaphas be included with this group? So if the high priest and even those who pierced Him do not come to life until after the thousand years are finished, (the only time every eye will be open to see Him), can Jesus be talking about a third coming?

 

In other words, aren't the goats going to sleep though the second coming, while the sheep are blessed and holy and therefore enjoy the first resurrection at the start of the thousand years? So IF Caiaphas does not come to life until the thousand years are finished, how can he be seeing the second coming?

 

 "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

 

If the writer of Hebrews mentions that even we are surrounded by such a great "cloud of witnesses", could these "clouds of heaven" that Jesus comes with not really be of the cumulus variety? Or will we and the angels actually become the 'clouds of heaven" that Caiaphas sees when he sees the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

 

Sound logical or just another drummer in a long line of percussionists?

[Dave Watchman]

On 1/21/2016 at 11:07 PM, Retrobyter said:

The "Judgment Seat of the Messiah (the Christ)" won't just be a "few years" "in heaven" "before the Millennium." It will last for a THOUSAND YEARS because the King of Israel has always been a SUPREME COURT JUDGE, just like Solomon was (2 Kings 3:16-27). It will be right here on earth, namely, in the Land of Israel, and it will be DURING the Millennium.

 

Hi Retrobyter

 

How can it be right here on earth, even in the Land of Israel, DURING the Millennium.

 

Like Peter said in Acts: "For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

Doesn't it sound like Jesus has to stay in Heaven until the time comes for "restoring all things"?

 

Isn't the time for "all things" to be restored to take place AFTER the thousand years of Revelation 20 at the realization of Revelation 21:5?

 

"And he who was seated on the throne said,

“Behold, I am making "all things" new.”

 

Isn't "the times of restoration of all things" from Acts 3 the equivalent of: “Behold, I am making all things new” from Revelation 21? And that doesn't happen until after the thousand years are finished and heaven must take Him in until that time comes. Although it doesn't sound like it would be a violation of Scripture for Him to do a Visitation 1000 years prior to that time. 

 

  "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also".

 

May by our good works, which they see, glorify God in the day of Visitation.

 

 

New International Version
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

English Standard Version
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

 

Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

 

Berean Literal Bible
whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.

 

New American Standard Bible
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

King James Bible
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

 

Hi Retrobyter

 

How can it be right here on earth, even in the Land of Israel, DURING the Millennium.

 

Like Peter said in Acts: "For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

Doesn't it sound like Jesus has to stay in Heaven until the time comes for "restoring all things"?

 

Isn't the time for "all things" to be restored to take place AFTER the thousand years of Revelation 20 at the realization of Revelation 21:5?

 

"And he who was seated on the throne said,

“Behold, I am making "all things" new.”

 

Isn't "the times of restoration of all things" from Acts 3 the equivalent of: “Behold, I am making all things new” from Revelation 21? And that doesn't happen until after the thousand years are finished and heaven must take Him in until that time comes. Although it doesn't sound like it would be a violation of Scripture for Him to do a Visitation 1000 years prior to that time. 

 

  "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also".

 

May by our good works, which they see, glorify God in the day of Visitation.

 

 

New International Version
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

English Standard Version
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

 

Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

 

Berean Literal Bible
whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.

 

New American Standard Bible
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

King James Bible
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Shalom, Dave Watchman.

Not at all. See, the Millennium IS "the time for God to restore all things!" This isn't something that will happen magically or instantaneously. It will take a while for all things to be "restored." The sky indeed DID receive Him until He returns to perform this "restoration."

You have all these English versions of Acts 3:21, but you don't have the Greek. Let's look at the Greek in depth, first. See, this is a VERY interesting passage of Scripture in the Greek and apparently one with which translators have had some problems.

Praxeis Apostoloon 3:19-21
19 Metanoeesate oun kai epistrepsate eis to exaleiftheenai humoon tas hamartias, 
20 hopoos an elthoosin kairoi anapsuxeoos apo prosoopou tou kuriou (20) kai aposteilee ton prokecheirismenon humin christon Ieesoun,
21 hon ouranon men dexasthai achri chronoon apokatastaseoos pantoon hoon elaleesen ho theos dia stomatos toon hagioon ap’ aioonos autou profeetoon.
UBS Greek New Testament

19 Metanoeesate = 19 (you)-Repent/Think-differently/Reconsider
oun = therefore
kai = and/also
epistrepsate = (you)-twist-upon/revert
eis = into (pros = to/toward)
to = the
exaleiftheenai = blotting-out
humoon = of-you (plural)/your (plural)
tas = the
hamartias, = sins,
20 hopoos = 20 in-the-manner-that
an = anyhow
elthoosin = shall-come
kairoi = occasions/set-times/proper-times
anapsuxeoos = of-refreshing/of-recovery-of-breath
apo = away-from/off-from
prosoopou = [the]-presence
tou = of-the
kuriou = Lord/Master
(20) kai = (20) and/also
aposteilee = He-(God)-shall-send
ton = the
prokecheirismenon = appointed-One (a participle that acts as a masculine, singular noun in the accusative case = a gerund as the direct object)
humin = to-you (plural)
christon = Christ/Messiah
Ieesoun, = Jesus/Yeshua`
21 hon = 21 the-[One]
dei = it-must-be/it-is-appropriate-for
ouranon = [the]-sky
men = indeed
dexasthai = to-receive
achri = until
chronoon = times
apokatastaseoos = of-reconstitution
pantoon = of-all-[things]
hoon = of-which
elaleesen = spoke
ho = the
theos = God
dia = through
stomatos = the-mouths
toon = of-the
hagioon = holy
ap’ (apo) = away-from
aioonos = [the]-age
autou = of-Him/His
profeetoon. = prophets.

So, this will occur at "the time of the reconstitution" (of our bodies), at the time when we "recover our breath!" This passage is talking about the RESURRECTION! And, the first Resurrection occurs when our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns PRIOR to the Millennium.

[Dave Watchman]

On 2/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 2/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, Retrobyter said:

So, this will occur at "the time of the reconstitution" (of our bodies), at the time when we "recover our breath!" This passage is talking about the RESURRECTION! And, the first Resurrection occurs when our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns PRIOR to the Millennium.

 

 

Shabbat Shalom Retrobyter.

Thank you for your note. It sounds like you think "the time for the final restoration of all things" is equivalent to: "the time of the reconstitution" (of our bodies), at the time when we "recover our breath!"

I agree that the first resurrection occurs when our Lord Yeshua ` the Messiah returns PRIOR to the Millennium. But it doesn't seem like "every eye" will be open to see Him (even those who pierced Him) until after the thousand years are finished when the "rest of the dead" come to life and can see Him coming with the clouds again.

These throne room scenes:

Revelation 14

 

"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

 

Revelation 7

 

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

 

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.

 

Revelation 19

 

"After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

 

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
  for his judgments are true and just;
for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.

 

Are they BEFORE or After New Jerusalem comes down to Earth?

 

Or do you agree that the throne in Heaven is in New Jerusalem and that this Beloved City comes down to Earth AFTER the thousand years are finished?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Dave Watchman