Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[hmbld]

 

I think it is pre trib and you think it is post trib.I am free to post my Scripture to justify why I believe as I do and you can post your Scripture to justify why you believe as you do.It is a standoff.It is a never ending go no where game.

So please do not brow beat me into taking your post trib position.It will never happen.

I am loving the factual points made by Mega in both threads, what the bible does not say, and what the bible does say.  I see no brow beating.  Just facts. These two threads would be immensely better if people set their beliefs aside and posted scripture to either agree or disagree with Mega, even though some are assuming he said more than he did lol.  Please do provide scripture, there are lots of threads with opinions, which does not help me arrive at the truth at all lol. 

[Montana Marv]

Omegaman

Matt 24:36 highlights the following verse Matt 24:37-39 which is - As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark, and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and killed them all.

Now let's look at today, now; people are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and know nothing about what is about to come.  Mankind is not in total chaos.

And compare to say the last 3 1/2 years.  3rd Seal - severe famine,  4th Seal - 1/4th of mankind killed,  6th Seal - people call for the mountains and rocks to fall on them and kill them.  1st Trumpet - 1/3rd of the earth is burned up, 2nd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the sea turns to blood, 3rd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the waters turn bitter, 5th Trumpet - those w/o the seal of God on their foreheads are tormented for 5 months, 6th Trumpet - 1/3rd of mankind are killed by the 200,000,000 army from the East.  1st Bowl - ugly and painful sores breakout on people, 2nd Bowl - the seas turn to blood, 3rd Bowl 1/3 of the springs turned to blood,  4th Bowl - the sun scorches people with fire, 5th Bowl - the beasts kingdom is plunged into darkness, 6th Bowl - the Euphrates River dries up, 7th Bowl - great earthquake, where all the cities of the world collapse.  Mankind in total chaos.

So "as in the days of Noah", which time frame is most appropriate.  Not the last 3 1/2 years.  Now let's look at Matt 24:36 - 38  in a different light - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but only the Father.  As it were in the days of Noah (people have severe famine, people called for the mountains and rocks to fall on them, men were tormented, sores broke out on them, living conditions were getting worse and worse, the land was chaotic).

And some say that the "As in the Days of Noah" refer to just before the Second Coming.  I say those conditions exist now.  So one must be ready now, not 7 years from now.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Logan]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.

Just wondering, but doesn't that actually mean that YOU will never change your mind, that no matter what anyone says or shows you from the bible that you have already decided what's correct?

[Ezra]

Those are not facts.  They are fabrications wrapped in wishful thinking.

The "rapture" in Revelation:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to apply this passage -- which clearly speaks of judgement -- to the Rapture of the saints.  What is this "harvest of the earth" and why is it being reaped? Rev 14:18-20 tells us very plainly, so let's look at that portion (which should have been included):

ARMAGEDDON

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Clearly "the vine of the earth" is a metaphor for all the ungodly and the evildoers who will be judged at Armageddon (see Rev 19:17-21) which is about 50 miles "without the city" (outside the city of Jerusalem).  This is "the winepress of the wrath of God" therefore blood will flow on earth like it has never flowed -- a river of blood.  All the armies of the Antichrist will gather against the Jews and Jerusalem, and Christ will destroy them with the breath of His mouth ad the brightness of His coming.  That is why the sickle is a symbol of God's judgement, not His grace to the saints.  So how can anyone who reads Rev 14-20 possibly claim that this is speaking about the Rapture?  As I said before, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE RAPTURE in Revelation.

[missmuffet]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.

 

Just wondering, but doesn't that actually mean that YOU will never change your mind, that no matter what anyone says or shows you from the bible that you have already decided what's correct?

That would be true.

[Ezra]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.

Just wondering, but doesn't that actually mean that YOU will never change your mind, that no matter what anyone says or shows you from the bible that you have already decided what's correct?

You could certainly interpret it that way.  I have yet to see one passage of Scripture that states that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are meant for the Church. This is a period of judgment and wrath on the unbelievers and the ungodly before the Second Coming of Christ.

[Ezra]

in fact, IN THE BIBLE, IN THE NT ,  MOST** OF THE DISCIPLES WERE THE SAME WAY,  and were lost because of it

. [/quote]

The very fact that they were disciples of Christ means that they were saved, not lost. Not sure what you are trying to imply here but this is not correct.

 

[gdemoss]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.

Just wondering, but doesn't that actually mean that YOU will never change your mind, that no matter what anyone says or shows you from the bible that you have already decided what's correct?

You could certainly interpret it that way.  I have yet to see one passage of Scripture that states that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are meant for the Church. This is a period of judgment and wrath on the unbelievers and the ungodly before the Second Coming of Christ.

The whole beginning of Revelation reveals that Jesus is not entirely pleased with the church and that they will suffer greatly for their error.  The New Testament is filled with warnings that God judges his people yet most don't believe God.  Christians are going to die in large numbers for their own personal failure to follow as they ought.  The tribulation and great tribulation are not for those who are obedient unto God through Christ.  It is not for those who love the truth but rather for they who have had pleasure in unrighteousness.  Their are billions of Christians.  Christ has revealed the warning.  We ought to take heed. 

[Last Daze]

Those are not facts.  They are fabrications wrapped in wishful thinking.

The "rapture" in Revelation:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to apply this passage -- which clearly speaks of judgement -- to the Rapture of the saints.  What is this "harvest of the earth" and why is it being reaped? Rev 14:18-20 tells us very plainly, so let's look at that portion (which should have been included):

ARMAGEDDON

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Clearly "the vine of the earth" is a metaphor for all the ungodly and the evildoers who will be judged at Armageddon (see Rev 19:17-21) which is about 50 miles "without the city" (outside the city of Jerusalem).  This is "the winepress of the wrath of God" therefore blood will flow on earth like it has never flowed -- a river of blood.  All the armies of the Antichrist will gather against the Jews and Jerusalem, and Christ will destroy them with the breath of His mouth ad the brightness of His coming.  That is why the sickle is a symbol of God's judgement, not His grace to the saints.  So how can anyone who reads Rev 14-20 possibly claim that this is speaking about the Rapture?  As I said before, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE RAPTURE in Revelation.

Please point to one aspect of the verse I quoted that clearly speaks of judgment, as you say.  The sickle is not a symbol of God's judgment.  Have you not read:

And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.  But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”  Mark 4:26-29

Do you see the sickle there being used to harvest?  It's even in reference to the kingdom of God.  You are mistaken.  There is no element of judgment there.  It simply represents reaping the mature crop.  It can obviously apply equally to the just as well as the unjust.

The part you quoted in red is subsequent to and unrelated to what I quoted.  They aren't talking about the same reaping.  Don't you see how one takes place from the cloud and the other on earth?  And you also conveniently left out verse 17

 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.  Revelation 14:17

The two reapings aren't even done by the same person so your attempt to connect them together fails.  The first reaping, which is the resurrection / rapture, is done by one like a son of man from the clouds....which is exactly where we meet Him.  The second reaping, which is the destruction of the wicked, is done by an angel who also has a sharp sickle.  It happens on earth.  The two reapings are clearly different and unrelated regardless of how desperately you need them to be connected.

Again, point out one aspect of Revelation 14:14-16 that "clearly speaks of judgment".  Its certainly not the mention of a sickle as Mark 4:29 points out.  Please use scripture and not rhetoric.  Prove your points, don't just assert them as fact.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Shiloh asked: " Yes, the Tribulation period concerns Israel and the Jews, not the Church.   The Church is not the focus of the anti-Christ's wrath;  Israel is.  Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.     If the Church were still in the tribulation, why send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to evangelize the world?   What's the Church doing?  Are they silent?   It makes no sense.   That's one reason I don't accept a Post Tribulation view.  "

 

Oh, did I miss that one in the list of things the Bible does not say? The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. I'll go check and maybe add that to the list! - Never mind, just checked, I already had that in the list!