Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's NOT three "heavens" spatially; it's THREE SKIES CHRONOLOGICALLY! There's no such thing as a "3rd heaven = God's abode!" It was a first sky before the Flood, a second sky right now between the Flood and the Fire to come, and a third sky after the Fire to come! So, Paul was not "caught up" to a third heaven; he was "snatched away" to a third sky! HE SAW THE FUTURE (as any prophet would)! And, all three "skies" include both the clouds and birds that we see in the sunlight of the sky during the day and the starlight and moonlight that we see at night!

You base your whole doctrine upon a single passage from 2 Peter. A thin reed indeed.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Let God be true and EVERY man," even every one of the Hebraic teachers, "a liar!" Besides, when talking about "graded states of consciousness," you've obviously wandered off into Kabbalistic teaching, the later mystical teaching of the Rabbis!

This is an example of a consciousness upgrade:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, SOME physicists (Australian physicists) are making such a claim, but it is based on an observation by John Webb that a quasar is absorbing the wrong kind of photonic energy...

Actually, the original evidence comes from plots of the time it took light to reach earth after the end of occultations, that is, eclipses of stars by the moons of Jupiter, etc. All of all of these timed-events plotted on a graph, taken from measurements dating back to Galileo, show a small but significant and steady decline in the speed of light over the last four centuries.

You are welcome to your rationalizations, however.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You base your whole doctrine upon a single passage from 2 Peter. A thin reed indeed.

This is an example of a consciousness upgrade:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Actually, the original evidence comes from plots of the time it took light to reach earth after the end of occultations, that is, eclipses of stars by the moons of Jupiter, etc. All of all of these timed-events plotted on a graph, taken from measurements dating back to Galileo, show a small but significant and steady decline in the speed of light over the last four centuries.

You are welcome to your rationalizations, however.

Really? A "thin reed?" I would rather put my trust in information provided by Kefa than by some magical formula "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" for which we don't even have a good source as to who provided this viewpoint! His explanation for a third heaven - a third sky - is MUCH better by far! It would also explain a lot about Paul's reference to the "man" being snatched away to the "third heaven," again, a "THIRD SKY," explaining in the process being snatched away to "paradeisos," or the "park" of God! For with due confidence, we can say that "God's park" is or is within the New Jerusalem!

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Revelation 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Revelation 21:21
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
KJV

Revelation 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

But, I suppose you would find that just a "thin reed," too. Get your head out of the "spiritual" clouds, and your brain out of the "imaginary" theory of Evolution, and get back to the simple truths of God's Word!

[Ezra]

Retro,

While one can fly the friendly "skies" of United, "sky" is inappropriate for "Heaven" and you should know that by now. We have every reason to believe that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heavens are indeed progressively clouds, stars, and God's throne.

[MorningGlory]

i have to agree qith O.O.; I believe Heaven is in another dimension.  I don't know if there are  one, two or three Heavens but I DO know that all the phony book sellers who claim to have been there are either liars or delusional.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Until Holy Scriptures convince me otherwise, I see the first Heaven as the Earth and its atmosphere.  I see the second Heaven as the Heavens the stars and planets occupy, suspend by God's power.  The third Heaven, I see as God's home, outside of the dimensions He created and placed His creation in.  The new Heaven could be just a restoration of the God's creation back to His original plan.  I haven't studied this subject deeply, so nothing I'm saying should be taken as truth without detailed study.

[Kan]

As described by many contributors with supporting scripture, the third heaven is where God's throne is.

It is fairly easy to see that God's throne is in the main temple in the city called New Jerusalem, which, from what I have gathered, rests on another planet similar to ours.

You have heard of the Shepherd leaving the 99 to seek the one lost sheep, well once I read an article on the constellation Orion from esoteric writings of a Satanic society, who claimed that heaven was located in a system of about 100 planets. I thought it was interesting, even though I hold no regard for the source.

The Bible mentions Orion three times, and indirectly, it could be a few times. But at least it is the most mentioned star group, and associated with seeking God. Amos 5:8. Interesting.

The constellation of Orion, as far as tradition is concerned, has long been connected with the Creator and heaven. For example, in one Native American tribe, the creator "Spider woman" who taught weaving, was Orion. Nimrod is said to have built the Pyramids (of Giza) in order to reach heaven, and they are arranged in a pattern that matches the constellation.

So if Heaven is in that constellation of Orion, it is practically right next door to earth, as far as distances in space go. We are located about 2/3 out from the center of our galaxy called the Milky Way. The Milky Way is supposed to be a spiral galaxy, which typically have 'arms' of billions of stars. We live in the Orion arm, where heaven could be located.

It is not uncommon for people to say that heaven is in another dimension altogether. But we have to remember that the universe was primarily made for God, for His delight. Rev 4:11. And God is the maker of "things." "All things were made by Him" and for Him. God is the greatest materialist that ever was. God is not into deceptive and unseen gestures like the enemy. 

There is no doubt that God has made invisible things and powers, but these support the visible world, and are understood by the visible things, see Romans 1:20. They are not there to disembody people and float them around nether lands. People are resurrected bodily, in order to enjoy real life in a real world.

The first earth was a real material world, with real people. The new earth will be "all things restored" - a real earth, with real people, and the city of God, which is also material and real, will settle on the plains prepared on earth.

So ghosts, clouds, spooks, subtle dimensions and such, are pagan and Satanic in origin, to remove the reality and vision of salvation from the earth.

 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Really? A "thin reed?" I would rather put my trust in information provided by Kefa than by some magical formula "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" for which we don't even have a good source as to who provided this viewpoint! His explanation for a third heaven - a third sky - is MUCH better by far! It would also explain a lot about Paul's reference to the "man" being snatched away to the "third heaven," again, a "THIRD SKY," explaining in the process being snatched away to "paradeisos," or the "park" of God! For with due confidence, we can say that "God's park" is or is within the New Jerusalem!...

But, I suppose you would find that just a "thin reed," too. Get your head out of the "spiritual" clouds, and your brain out of the "imaginary" theory of Evolution, and get back to the simple truths of God's Word!

Since I believe in neither the view of the 3 heavens in the first paragraph, nor evolution, nor have ever stated so in this string, I can only presume you are unable to hold a rational discussion and debate. So I'm done here.

[enoob57]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2015 at 0:19 PM, other one said:

When I look at the scripture that John posted and a couple of other books and the "M" string theoretical physics book I delved into about 5 years ago, it all seems to me that the Third Heaven is actually a higher dimension....    it is actually around and among us at a higher level of existence.   It would make sense that a few people and a donkey would be able to see a higher dimension on occasion in which a lot of angels were around.

I don't think we actually have enough knowledge of it all to understand how it all could possibly work, at least I don't but little glimpses of possibilities are just mind boggling.   I don't think it's possible for us in our human bodies to transfer into the upper dimensions (second or third heaven).

Most people get uncomfortable with reasoning outside of the begin... we can know that your suspicions are well founded in this

Job 9:10-11

10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.

11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
KJV

defining for us this one reality that God In His Unbounded Fullness of Being, yet among us, and chooses to be unseen without
being restricted In His Person 'IS' indeed outside of known science of laws. Indeed with His Word and with the increase of knowledge
clearly His God Head 'IS' defined but exceeds our anything to which we may proceed in our reliance of 1^st born tethers to awaited 2^nd
born realities, pointed to, but held in tension of border... We see this in the demons and the pigs! They were terrified in being outside
of corporeal placement existing in the total reliance of being in spirit and infinite borderless exist in non created being where God
is enthroned. His Presence explained when He reveals His Being on The Great White Throne the first elements of creation will flee...
The Jewish children had 3 concepts of heavens atmosphere ( where the birds fly), space (the universe created), Where God dwells (the
infinite uncreated). All we can do is wait and in waiting do what He tells us- to live in fullness now and what will be Rev 22...  
Love, Steven

[Retrobyter]

On December 31, 2015 at 3:51 PM, inchrist said:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven  to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth : and it was so.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness : and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

Let's see, these lights have the following functions:

To divide the day from the night.

For signs

For seasons

For days

For years

To give light upon the earth

To rule the day

To rule the night

Now I wonder what lights those are?

 

Perhaps it's just best we allow scripture to interpret scripture

Psalms 136 : 7-10

To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

8The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day

9The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting

Genesis 1:16 ....and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also

But I guess these arnt objects either:

Ezekiel 32:8

All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

 

 

 

Well they actually do considering you seemed to be amused about God having to wait for the time it takes light to hit the earth. 

Considering God is outside of time and can manipulate time, that the very argument of God having to wait for light to hit earth would be instantaneous.

 

 

Well actually UK and US physicists and even a Canadian mathematician, Alan Montgomery. 

His model indicates that the decay of velocity of light closely follows a cosecant-squared curve, and has been asymptotic since 1958. That means the speed of light was 10-30% faster in the time of Christ; twice as fast in the days of Solomon; four times as fast in the days of Abraham, and more than 10 million times faster prior to 3000 B.C.

That means God again would not have to wait 8 mins for light to hit the earth or 4 years for a light from the "Dog Star" Sirius 

 

 

You tell me? You seem to think light has escaped the results of sin

 

 

Exactly hence why there is a decay of c, the slowing velocity of light, was one of the results of the upheavals of Genesis Chapter 3.

 

 

Shalom, InChrist.

Et tu, Brute? Oh, don't be a twit! I was WONDERING if I shouldn't have given the Hebrew for the rest of the 4th Day of Creation! There are two Hebrew words for "light" employed by the author, Mosheh (Moses):

B-reeshiyt 1:14-19
14 Vayo’mer Elohiym "Yhiy m’orot birqiya` hashaamayim lhabdiyl beeyn hayowm uwVeeyn halaaylaah vhaayuw l’otot uwlmow`adiym uwlyaamiym vshaaniym:
15 Vhaayuw lim’owrot birqiya` hashaamayim lhaa’iyr `al haa’aarets vayhiy keen:
16 Vaya`as Elohiym et shneey ham’orot hagdoliym et hamaa’owr hagaadol l-memshelet hayowm v’et hamaa’owr haqaaTon l-memshelet halaylaah v’eet hakowkhaaViym:
17 Vayiteen otaam Elohiym birqiya` hashaamaayim l-haa’iyr `al haa’aarets:
18 Vlimshol bayowm uwbalaylaah uwlhabdiyl beeyn haa’owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh vayar’ Elohiym kiy TowV:
19 Vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm rViy`iy:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

14 Vayo’mer = 14 And-said
Elohiym = God
"Yhiy = "Let-there-be
"m’orot = lights (feminine)
birqiya` = in-[the]-expanse
hashaamayim = of-the-skies
lhabdiyl = to-separate/distinguish
beeyn = between
hayowm = the-day
uwVeeyn = and-between
halaaylaah = the-night
vhaayuw = let-them-be
l’otot = for-signs
uwlmow`adiym = and-for-holidays
uwlyaamiym = and-for-days
vshaaniym: = and-years:
15 Vhaayuw = And-let-them-be
lim’owrot = for-lights
birqiya` = in-[the]-expanse
hashaamayim = of-the-skies
lhaa’iyr = to-give-light
`al = unto
haa’aarets = the-earth
vayhiy = and-it-was
keen: = yes/so.
16 Vaya`as = 16 And-made
Elohiym = God
et = (next noun is a direct object)
shneey = two
ham'orot = the-lights
hadgoliym = the-greater (plural)
et = (next noun is a direct object)
hamaa'owr = the-light
hagaadol = the-greater
l-memshelet = to-govern
hayowm = the-day
v'et = and-(next noun is a direct object)
hamaa'owr = the-light
haqaaTon = the-lesser
l-memshelet = to-govern
halaylaah = the-night
v'eet = and-(next noun is a direct object)
hakowkhaaViym: = the-round-objects [stars]:
17 Vayiteen = 17 And-set/established
otaam = them
Elohiym = God (subject)
birqiya` = in-[the]-expanse
hashaamaayim = of-the-skies
l-haa’iyr = to-give-light
`al = upon
haa’aarets: = the-earth.
18 Vlimshol = 18 And-to-rule/govern
bayowm = in-[the]-day
uwbalaylaah = and-in-[the]-night
uwlhabdiyl = and-to-divide/distinguish
beeyn = between
haa’owr = the-light
uwVeeyn = and-between
hachoshekh = the-darkness
vayar’ = and-saw
Elohiym = God
kiy = that-it-was
TowV: = good.
19 Vayhiy = 19 And-there-was
`ereV = evening
vayhiy = and-there-was
boqer = morning
yowm = a-day
rViy`iy: = fourth.

So, not only are their individual "lights" (m'orot) and each individual "light" (hamaa'owr) but there is also the whole spectrum of "light" (haa'owr). Each individual light is made FROM (min or the m- prefix) the spectrum of light! The Creation account is NOT talking about the making of the bodies first! This is a concept that is hard for us to grasp, because we are so atuned to thinking that light comes from a "source of light," but the photonic energy is a thing, too! And, the photonic energy was created BEFORE the objects that are said to be its source! The spectrum of "light" was created on day ONE! "And God saw the light (haa'owr), that it was good!" (1:4)

Quit trying to fit the Bible into your precious science! The Bible is truth. As usual, science just has to catch up!

And, about your claims of the speed of light, really?! So, at the time of the Messiah's first advent, the speed of light was between 329,771,703.8 and 389,730,195.4 meters per second? And, at the time of Shlomoh, it was 599,584,916 meters per second? And, at the time of Avraham, the speed of light was 1,199,169,832 meters per second? And, at the time just before Noach was born, the speed of light was 2.99792458 x 10¹⁵ meters per second?! At what point does the energy behind such speed burn out our retinas? And, just what, I might ask, is slowing the light down? Is it the magnetic field or the electric field? Or, are they ceasing to be at 90 degrees from each other? The nature of an electromagnetic wave is that a dying magnetic field gives rise to an electric field, and the dying electric field generates a magnetic field, and the wave perpetuates itself despite the lack of a medium in which most waves are propagated. So, WHY is this speed slowing down?

Let's get back to the basics: Wikipedia's article says,

Quote

 

The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its precise value is 299792458 metres per second (approximately 3.00×108 m/s), since the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time. According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all matter and information in the universe can travel. It is the speed at which all massless particles and changes of the associated fields (including electromagnetic radiation such as light and gravitational waves) travel in vacuum. Such particles and waves travel at cregardless of the motion of the source or the inertial reference frame of the observer. In the theory of relativity, c interrelates space and time, and also appears in the famous equation of mass–energy equivalence E = mc2.

The speed at which light propagates through transparent materials, such as glass or air, is less than c; similarly, the speed of radio waves in wire cables is slower than c. The ratio between c and the speed v at which light travels in a material is called the refractive index n of the material (n = c / v). For example, for visible light the refractive index of glass is typically around 1.5, meaning that light in glass travels at c / 1.5 ≈ 200000 km/s; the refractive index of air for visible light is about 1.0003, so the speed of light in air is about 299700 km/s (about 90 km/s slower than c).

For many practical purposes, light and other electromagnetic waves will appear to propagate instantaneously, but for long distances and very sensitive measurements, their finite speed has noticeable effects. In communicating with distant space probes, it can take minutes to hours for a message to get from Earth to the spacecraft, or vice versa. The light seen from stars left them many years ago, allowing the study of the history of the universe by looking at distant objects. The finite speed of light also limits the theoretical maximum speed of computers, since information must be sent within the computer from chip to chip. The speed of light can be used with time of flight measurements to measure large distances to high precision.

Ole Rømer first demonstrated in 1676 that light travels at a finite speed (as opposed to instantaneously) by studying the apparent motion of Jupiter's moon Io. In 1865, James Clerk Maxwell proposed that light was an electromagnetic wave, and therefore travelled at the speed c appearing in his theory of electromagnetism. In 1905, Albert Einstein postulated that the speed of light with respect to any inertial frame is independent of the motion of the light source, and explored the consequences of that postulate by deriving the special theory of relativity and showing that the parameter c had relevance outside of the context of light and electromagnetism.

After centuries of increasingly precise measurements, in 1975 the speed of light was known to be 299792458 m/s with a measurement uncertainty of 4 parts per billion. In 1983, the metre was redefined in the International System of Units (SI) as the distance travelled by light in vacuum in 1/299792458 of a second. As a result, the numerical value of c in metres per second is now fixed exactly by the definition of the metre.

 

The theory behind light moving slower through glass than in air is that the photonic energy still moves at the same speed as through a vacuum between atoms, but the energy is then absorbed by the electrons of an atom and the excited electrons jump to a higher energy level for a short time; then, the electron emits that photonic energy and drops back to its original energy level. The time that it takes for the electron to absorb the photon, jump to the higher energy level, and re-emit the photon increases the time for the light to move through the glass, and the light is then said to be slower through the glass.

So, are we saying that something is getting in the way of the original speed of light, making it APPEAR to slow? Or, is our meter (metre) lengthening?

[JohnD]

On 12/29/2015 at 5:43 PM, other one said:

Most of my friends think I'm nuts, but I'm really bothered by what they are doing at CERN.

 

Uh yeah... ! I am very concerned.

Every nuclear explosion was set off by a chain reaction in the small space of atoms. 

What they are doing at CERN is to try to go faster than the speed of light in the subatomic level, reproduce in that tiny realm the heat of the big bang, and possibly create a black hole. Any one of which could unleash a chain reaction that would quickly upend this fragile balancing act we call mother earth.