Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is clearly where the source of your problem lies. (Which refers to my comment about "simile" and "metaphor.")

Revelation 21:
16 And the city lies  foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with  the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof,  an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

"according to the measure of a man" is reference to Deuteronomy 3:11 the measurement of the temple.

...

Shalom, inchrist.

... IF indeed a "problem" even exists! That you PERCEIVE a "problem" suggests to me that you are taking Revelation FAR too liberally and are too cavalier about the allegorical interpretations you are making of the Scriptures!

"According to the measure of a man" simply means that the measurements he was making were measurements that any human being with the right tools would make! He was also making the point that the "messenger" (aggelos) who made these measurements WAS a human being sent as a "messenger." There is NO covert reference back to Deuteronom 3:11!

"Twelve thousand furlongs" is based on the SAME GREEK "stadion" that anyone would use at the time Yochanan (John) was on the Isle of Patmos. This measurement was equal to 660 feet. Thus, 12,000 stadia would be ..

12,000 stadios x (660 feet / 1 stadion) = 7,920,000 feet, and...

7,920,000 feet x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,500 miles.

Thus, the square area covered by this city will be 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles, or 2,250,000 square miles. THAT'S what "lieth foursquare" means; it means the city's footprint has four square angles! The Greek is "tetragoonos keitai." In mathematical terms, he called it a "tetragon," a "four-angled" 2-dimensional figure, like a "polygon" is a "many-angled" figure.

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Since God created human-kind on the 6th day, the number 6 is the number of a man. 

What this means is that each wall to this city is 144,000 cubits X 144,000 cubits. This means 144,000 people X 144,000 people.

"foursquare” means 144 X 144! This means to the second power. In other words too many to count.

The measurement of the city is immeasurable because it is measured in the cubits of man.

New Jerusalem is the fulfilled prophecy of the Double portion inheritance.

In Numbers 31:4 we see the same pattern, the English versions does not display the fact that the words "thousand from each tribe" is doubled

 

This argument is ridiculous and is beneath an intelligent person like yourself. First of all, "the number 6 is the number of a man" is a smoke screen; it's basic Cabalistic gematria, as bad as trusting the zodiac and astrology.

Second, the text says "12,000 FURLONGS by 12,000 FURLONGS (by 12,000 FURLONGS)!" The "144 cubits" are a TOTALLY different measurement, specifically, it's the THICKNESS of the wall and probably at the gate! And, NEITHER measurement suggests the number of PEOPLE! Where'd you get that crazy notion?!

Third, your math is atrocious! 144,000 x 144,000 = 20,736,000,000 or "twenty billion seven hundred thirty-six million." That's a large number, to be sure, but "too many to count?" I don't think so. We count numbers bigger than that for the world population or the United States national debt! "To the second power" is the same thing as saying "squared."

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Here is what it reads in hebrew:

Numbers 31:4 Send an Aleph Mattah (thousand branches) an Aleph Mattah (thousand branches) from each Mattah (tribe) of all the tribes of Yisrael for the campaign 

The formula here is "a thousand branches times a thousand branches." 

This again is to the power of two. Too many to count.

 

That's not the Hebrew of that verse.

First of all, the verse is...

Number 31:4
4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
KJV

It's a portion of this RECORDED HISTORY:

Numbers 31:1-8
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
KJV

The text is talking about a PORTION of the children of Israel, only 1000 people from each of the twelve tribes or 12,000 people (plus Phinehas) to go against the Midianites and wipe them out!

Again, your interpretation of that one verse is NONSENSE!

The Hebrew of the verse (transliterated) is ...

BMidbar 31:4
4 Elef lamaTeh elef lamaTeh lkhol maTowt Yisraa'eel tishlchuw latsaaVaa':
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

The duplication of the words "elef lamaTeh" simply makes it plural, individually for each of the tribes of Yisrael.

The rest is simply the "Two House" doctrine nonsense.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/14/2016 at 9:13 AM, inchrist said:

Firstly, let's deal with the Two House Doctrine. 

The erroneous held view holds elements of replacement theology where they claim US and Britain and the western counterparts are the "Literal Bloodline" of the lost 10 tribes.

Which agree is false, however this still does not negate that there are two houses.

Let me break this down for you.

You have the Christian body on the one hand and you have the Jewish body on the other hand.

2 separate corporations or houses, both believing in the same God, however the one house  rejects the messiah.

Now why do I call the Christian body the House of Ephraim?

All the literal bloodline of Israelite tribes were under one kingdom first the House of Benjamite and then proper under the House of Judah until they split into two separate kingdoms, that being the Northern House of Ephraim and the Sourthen House of Judah.

During the time of the one kingdom of Israel proper until the time of seperation and divorce of the northern tribe, there were only Israelites and gentiles (being the rest of the world.)

When God divorced the House of Ephraim, was now counted as a gentile.

Hos 1:9
Then the LORD said, "Call him Lo-Ammi (which means "not my people"), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

However God had a salvation plan installed for the House of Ephraim who are now counted as amongest the gentiles.

Hos 1:10
Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'children of the living God.

We see the same salvation prophecy in Jeremiah 31:9

They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

In order for Ephraim to be called the firstborn sons of the living God,  one must be born of Christ 

When Christ walked the earth, the House of Judah rejected Him, in fact they traded Him for barabbas.

It is no matter of coincidence in the prophetic template or pattern of Jacob with Rachel, where Rachel traded Jacob to Leah for some of Leah's mandrakes.

Rachel recieved him not.

The Jews recieved him not.

We also find Christ proclaiming the following:

 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In order to fulfill Jeremiah 31:9 the gospel was destined to be sent to the House of Israel also known as the House of Ephraim.

While the gospel was sent out to the literal bloodlines of the House of Ephraim, where ever the gospel went gentiles who like myself who are NOT literal bloodlines of the House of Ephraim would pop up and accept the gospel accounts and proclaim Christ along with the literal bloodlines pf Ephraim.

Non literal bloodlines of Israelites who accepted Christ would then be called companions of the literal bloodlines of House of Ephraim

How else would the following be fulfilled:

Genesis 48:14-19
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head…. And he blessed Joseph, and said …his [Ephraim’s] seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Non literal bloodlines who have accepted Judaism are called companions of the literal bloodlines of the House of Judah.

This is why this still needs to be fulfilled:

Ezekiel 37:16-22
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For [the tribe of] Judah, and for the children of Israel [of the house of Judah] his companions -[non literal bloodlines who ha e accepted Judaism]: then take another stick, and write upon it, For [the tribe of] Joseph,the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions [gentile nations who are non bloodlines who have accepted Christ: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. …Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them[the house of Judah and the house of Israel] one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

The fact you object to the idea of two Houses is to reject the prophecy of God simply because you have believed some who teach the erronous concept that the two house doctrine teaches that the Britian and the US are the literal bloodline descendants of Ephraim is what the two house doctrine is about.

What I have presented corrects that erroneous teaching and presents the correct understanding of the Two houses.

Shalom, inchrist (and anyone reading this).

And, so I rest my case. It is NONSENSE! I was knocked down severely for even SUGGESTING that Yeshua` was the Son of God instead of God, and now YOU would have me believe that God is/will be a POLYGAMIST when Yeshua` said what He said about marriage?!

Matthew 19:4-9
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they TWAIN (TWO) shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness (fierceness) of your hearts suffered (reluctantly allowed) you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
KJV

IF Yeshua` the Messiah, the Incarnate Word, is God the Son, as so many insist, then to suggest that He is "married" to the Gentile believers while His Father is "married" to the children of Israel, and the two are separate "Houses," makes God a POLYGAMIST! Just because Ya`aqov (Jacob) was a polygamist (although he didn't intend on being one), and also had children by his wives' handmaidens as his grandfather did with Sarah's handmaiden Hagar, as well, doesn't make him a ROLE MODEL, let alone an analogy for prophecy!

Just DROP the "Two House" nonsense altogether! It doesn't FIT! The term "Israel" has to be read IN CONTEXT! After the revolt against RchaV`aam (Rehoboam), "Israel" MAY refer to either (1) just the ten northern tribes, OR (2) to the whole group of the children of Israel! CONTEXT must decide!

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There are three different cubits mentioned in the Old Testament which is the length of a human forearm about 18 inches, and another is from the base of the human hand to the elbow about 12 inches and the third one is the stature of a human being.

Deuteronomy 3:11 states  after  the cubit of a man

In otherwords out of the three types of measurement it is the third type of measurement we find in the bible being the measurement of the stature of Og.

It is the same cubit measurement of the Revelation 21:17, scripture must interpret scripture.

MORE nonsense! Anyone who used this measurement knows that any two, different people could have a different length "cubit" - the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger - because two different people could have two different heights and two different lengths of arm! That's why the "cubit" was typically based on the KING'S "cubit"  before it was standardized! 

Og was the king of Bashan (a city-state in the Land), not the king of Israel! They would NOT have used Og's "cubit" as a means of comparison to tell you how big Og's bed was!

And, I have NEVER heard of a "cubit" being called the length of the forearm "from the base of the human hand to the elbow!" Where'd you get THAT little chestnut?

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Lets turn to Ezekiel 40, the Temple dimensions there for another example.

Ezekiels Temple dimensions are being measured out in “reeds” and the Hebrew word for “reeds” is as follows:

#7070: qaneh: reed, stalk, bone, balances, stalk, water-plant, reed, calamus (aromatic reed), measuring-rod, reed (as unit of measure - 6 cubits), beam (of scales - for scales themselves), shaft (of lampstand),  branches (of lampstand) , shoulder-joint. 

This word has a variety of meanings that can point to a human being as Ezekiels temple measurement.

Christ likend the 7 assemblies to  “lamp-stands”  in the first three chapters of Revelation. 

The word  “branch”  has been prophetically used to mean “tribes” of Israel (Ezekiel 37, Romans 11)

Therefore, this word  “reeds”  as a unit of measuring the Ezekiel’s Temple can certainly pertain to human beings rather than building materials. 

Again, NONSENSE! The word "reed," or "qaaneh" in Hebrew, or "kalamos" in Greek, means a "HOLLOW TUBE!" It doesn't mean ANYTHING "pertaining to human beings rather than building materials!" Again, you're using allegorical interpretation; that is, suggesting that the analogy is more important than the thing itself!

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New Jerusalem in Revelation, are pointing to an eternal concept because this type of prophetic language pertains to a temple that is made  “without human hands.”  

A concept you been found wanting with your below statement.

New Jerusalem is Christ who is building a temple made up of “lively stones” (people):

1 Peter2:5 You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Elohiym by Yahuwshuwa Messiah

You're now not only using allegorical interpretation, but you're guilty of MIXING METAPHORS! In the first place, the New Jerusalem is NOT the "temple!" To the contrary, Yochanan (John) said this:

Revelation 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

Secondly, you're taking things said in Revelation and trying to compare them to things said in 1 Peter! They are two separate books, written by two separate people, who used their own analogies for the things they were writing!

Also, the name of the Incarnate Word of God is Yeeshuwa`! NOT "Yahuwshuwa`"! "Yahuw" is NOT part of His name! His name doesn't mean "Yahuw saves"; His name means "HE will save!" (See Matthew 1:21.)

I'll deal with the rest later.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

36 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

No 'rapture' word use there.

So.......they did not feel as you do.

It's not about "feeling."  It's about language.

Of course they don't.
They don't go from the Greek to the Latin to the English.
They go from the Greek to the English.

harpazo means to gather.
to gather in the Latin is rapio.
When earlier Christians centuries past heard the Bible read from the pulpit, they heard it read in Latin.

And thus we have the word: Rapture as their understanding of what was read.

Silly girl...

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, eileenhat said:

This is mainly a metaphor to describe an exalted state in the Lord (as in 'ascend to the Lord' also references).

Really?  At this rate we could classify all Scripture as metaphoric. Don't be deceived.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, eileenhat said:

So you are saying, as a fact, that every scripture is literal?

Almost all. And especially the one you tried to present as metaphorical.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, eileenhat said:

I can quote a dozen Bibles, none care to go as far as assuming 'rapture'.  They stick to the original intent 'gathered together'.  As in a body of believers are gathered together and will ascend unto the Lord's presence.

That's the Rapture.

Trinity isn't in the Bible either... so if you're going to go on your strict, ultra-literal word test: who isn't God?  Jesus?  Or the Holy Spirit?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, eileenhat said:

If you would stop pretending to know the length and breath of the Bible, perhaps you might open up to having God (of Abraham) interpret it for you versus man and his demented ways (as Satan has had a hand in it).   Because he will.

You voted for hilLIARy didn't you?

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, eileenhat said:

No, it is not the rapture.  We just fixate on that idea even though if you just think about it for one moment, it doesn't even fit into God's plan for mankind (ie. to live with him in heaven versus get on with living here.  There is work to do.).

Re. "trinity" topic.

And if you are looking for me to prove God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist and form some sort of 'trinity', then that is another topic you can begin on another thread and I'd contribute my first hand experience of all three.

God is tall by the way.

If you would stop pretending to know the length and breath of the Bible, perhaps you might open up to having God (of Abraham) interpret it for you versus man and his demented ways (as Satan has had a hand in it).   Because he will.

There is a rapture Sister, pray for understanding and God will show you this. I am not pilling on. The Church goes to be with Jesus, for a 7 year period, prior to the Anti-Christ coming forth. 

 

Even when something is metaphoric, it is Literal. I know that seems contradictory, but there is no Seven Headed Beast in Rev 13 and 17, but there IS A SEVEN HEADED BEAST, and it is Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Revived Rome/Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings............You see my point ? Even that which is metaphorical in scriptures is about real events, it is usually just a "CODE" for the real event. In other words when our Army sends an order in CODE and it says oftiar pmsu kklqpnd loapman, whatever those letters represent it is a REAL ORDER that has to be decoded. So both of you are correct. 

 

And just a reminder. Satan deceived Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane, he wanted to fight instead of listening to Jesus, and Jesus told him, Get thee behind me Satan !! So just because we hear something, doesn't mean we have always heard God. (Peter proves this) so just because you hear something about Christmas, doesn't mean you heard from God. I don't think God cares if we celebrate Jesus birth, as long as we celebrate his birth over everything else. The commercial side is to much for me, but it gives us a chance to reach unbelievers, so I use that chance.

 

 

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, eileenhat said:

God did show me two resurrections, but no rapture.

All you have to do is read John 14:1-3 and you will find the Lord Jesus Christ promising the Rapture EVEN BEFORE His crucifixion.

So if you can't find the Rapture in Scripture, you need to do some more digging.  There are several passages which speak about the Rapture, but I will let you discover them for yourself.  That is far more effective. And just because that particular word is not used, means nothing.  The doctrine is what matters.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, eileenhat said:

God did show me two resurrections, but no rapture.

 

So how does that nullify anything ? Everyone knows there are TWO RESURRECTIONS. the resurrection of the living and the resurrection of those headed to hell who are raised 1000 years later. God not showing you the Rapture doesn't mean there is no Rapture. There are a lot of things in the Bible God doesn't personally show us, that doesn't mean anything. Which makes it your belief.

8 hours ago, eileenhat said:

He did show me Beast out of the Sea and it isn't those countries, nor timeframe.

 

Well God has shown me who they are, and my explanation fits. Yours doesn't fit the scriptures.

8 hours ago, eileenhat said:

You can call anyone you like what you want and still.....be wrong about....well everything (you brought up here).

 

I don't even know what this means.

8 hours ago, eileenhat said:

I love Jesus, not man, ...thank God.  So critize all you want.  Won't ever score.

That is great, but we must still be in tune with the Holy Spirit, Satan doesn't stop trying to deceive us. A lot of times people get their ideas from other people, and don't even recognize where they picked up the ideas. I listen to all ideas, and form an opinion, then I study and pray until God shows me His truth, and a lot of times my formulated opinions were Wrong....For example, I wrote a blog 8 months ago and sated emphatically that Rome was the City mentioned in verse Rev. 17:18, without a doubt. Within 2 months God had showed me,it was not a Real City, it was not America, it was not the RCC (which I already knew) it was not Mecca and it was not Rome. It was an IMPRINTED WORD on the Harlots Head. THAT'S ALL. Just like the other three words imprinted on her head, Mystery, Abominations of the Earth and Mother of Harlots. 

It is a Metaphor for Gods Anger at the Nations which he defeats in Rev. 16. where the Seventh Vial is poured out in verse 16:17 then this comes to pass....Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

We have to put our on ideas to the side when God speaks to us. These Nations that come against Israel, are seen as Babylon and destroyed by Jesus at the Seventh Vial.