Jesus' Return II

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

So why bring them up? What purpose did that serve for you? You claim is biblical truth, yet you have no evidence.

 

Your methodology remains inconsistent, you treat the Philadelphia letter as prophetic for end times, yet you cant provide a single slice of historical evidence the other 6 letters were fulfilled......That is the point. 

 

Your bases of the words great tribulation in Rev 2 and Rev 7 to be set apart in meaning has no scriptural or historical support. 

 

 

 

 

You not getting it, my argument with you is NOT whether the greek grammar specifically the tense we are discussing can never be used as a single action for  one time event as apposed to a continual progressive action of being one by one.

 

If the context does not dictate the grammar, the natural use of the grammar is to be applied being continual action. That is the greek rule

 

So my argument with you is very simple, which tense is being applied in Rev 7:14 is it:

 

A) a continuious one by one action?

 

Or is it

 

B) a single one time event?

 

The ONLY way you are going to determine that is by the CONTEXT of Rev 7:14

 

Since you accuse everyone here of unable to stay in CONTEXT, show us how you determine a single one time event staying in CONTEXT of Rev 7

 

If you can not show a single one time event in CONTEXT of Rev 7, then you are forced to admit to greek grammar rules that the natural greek tense of continuous action must be applied

 

I disagree: the context can go either way, depending in preconceptions. So we are right back to where we started: there is little in this verse to prove one way or the other that they arrived simultaneously or arrived one by one.

However, I think the very number, or really lack of a number because this group is said to be too large to number, eliminates the theory that these are saints beheaded by the Beast.  The fact that these are seen in heaven in chapter 7 and John does not get to the beheaded saints caused by the Beast until chapter 15 is the second proof. Of course, for someone that can rearrange at will to fit a theory, this probably would carry no weight.

In fact, my guess is, the entire church would believe this large group was the raptured church if John had not written "out of great tribulation."  My argument is, these two words together is not enough to convince me that in this one instance God chose to bypass chronology and show something out of sync with the rest of the book. These two words, great and tribulation were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus. He went on to say that there would never be another time where tribulation would be so great.  This tells me that in the mind of God, there have been days of great tribulation OTHER than the last half of the 70th week, but they were not as bad in some way or another.  Say for example when Jerusalem was under seige in 70 AD. Was that not great tribulation for those in the city? How can "tribulation" be any greater than when people are murdered. They cannot be killed twice. For them "tribulation" was a great as it can get.

This is a list from many different translators:

who have come
1  coming out
who have come
2  coming out
who come out
which came out   KJV
3  coming out
4 are coming out
who have come out
who came out
who came from
5 who are coming out
who come out
who came out
who came out
which came out
that come of
who are come out
who come out
which come out
who came out
who have just passed through
who came out
6 who are coming out

Ancient translations:

Wycliff:  that camen fro

Tyndale:  which cam oute

Coverdale: which cam out

Matthew's: (1537) which came out

Great Bible: (1539) whych came out

Geneva bible:  which came out

Bishop's Bible: which came out

It is interesting, all the ancient translators puts it in the past tense.

We have only 6 that chose the 'ing" ending.

I still believe, when we consider all these things together, that this crowd must be the raptured church.

There is even another alternative: many people say that they were raptured "ek" or out of GT meaning before the GT could begin. If this was John's meaning, then it would certainly be the days of GT Jesus spoke of.

On your side of this discussion, the definite article "THE" is there in the Greek. It is not just any great tribulation, it is THE great tribulation.  I am surprised you did not bring this up. It may be the strongest part on your side.

[Daniel 11:36]

And Revelation 3:14-22 are those who missed the Lord's action to immortalize them and are found on the other side in the tribulation .... the Lord admonishes then to repent and if they do He will save them as well

Edited June 29, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, Sister said:

The woman is Satan's City, and consists of all the kingdom's of the world, called Babylon spiritually.

Sorry, I don't buy it. John told us it was "that great city," and previously had written that the "great city" was Jerusalem. Why would John and the Holy Spirit behind John change the meaning of a word or phrase in the same book?

 

50 minutes ago, Sister said:

This is that great City, all the kingdoms, and the nations of the earth....Babylon, where our Lord was also crucified (He wasn't crucified in Zion)

Jesus was the JEW'S Messiah, coming from the tribe of Judah of ISRAEL. He was crucified outside the city walls but still in the outskirts of Jerusalem. For most purposes we could say just as John did, He was crucified in Jerusalem. Jerusalem was not AT THAT TIME called Babylon. But the city will be "Babylon the Great" during the time the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world from that city.

 

55 minutes ago, Sister said:

Rome was serving Babylon, Jerusalem was serving Babylon, all against God and Christ are spiritually serving the King of Babylon, ...the god of this world

I don't disagree with this. But these facts do not prove against Jerusalem being "the woman" and "that great city" in Rev. 17.

 

1 hour ago, Sister said:

  Jeremiah 50:39   Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.

Jerusalem will be inhabited again?

Your scriptures are of course truth, but they were prophecy about the Chaldean city of Babylon. Remember Nebuchadnezzar? 

John called "that great city" of Jerusalem as MYSTERY Babylon. After Rev.18, there will never again be another "Mystery" babylon great city of Jerusalem. Meaning, never again will Jerusalem be a city dispensing false doctrine at a level that would deceive the entire world. In fact, the city of Jerusalem (see Rev. 19) will be attacked and mostly overcome, and then burned. But Jesus will return just in the nick of time to save the Jews being held captive there.  

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, fixerupper said:

You mean just a few bad examples.  They're all taken WAY out of context. 

 

No, they are perfectly in context, as only one is coming and bringing judgement, and the passages tell us specifically whom that is.

 

Isaiah 41:4 Who has performed and done this,
    calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, the first,
    and with the last; I am he.

 

Psalms 7:12  12 If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
    he has bent and readied his bow;

 

Psalms 21:9 You will make them as a blazing oven
    when you appear.
The Lord will swallow them up in his wrath,
    and fire will consume them.

 

Sorry to tell you they are all in perfect context with the end times.  The main point in this, your claim that the bow is not associated with the Lord and only with wicked is simply not true, as anyone reading can plainly see.

 

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Just like the others, you fall for interpretations by mentors who are even more misled than you are.

 

Personal attacks are unbecoming, try to abide by the TOS in the future.  You know absolutely nothing about me, my mentor is the Holy Spirit, not men.

 

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

People aren't sure who Isaiah 41 is taliking about.

 

What people are you talking about?  Your mentors perhaps?  The passage plainly states that it is the Lord being spoken of, go with scripture my friend.

 

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Pslam 7:12 He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready:  This is talking about the readiness of God to judge the sinner.

 

Exactly, and when does that happen?  And again, the point is, God has His bow, making your claim that it is only associated with the wicked as false.

 

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Psalm 21:12 For you will put them to flight; you will aim at their faces with your bows.  This is talking about God's judgment against the enemies of God.

 

Exactly, and when does that happen?  And again, the point is, God has His bow, making your claim that it is only associated with the wicked as false.

 

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The bow is used of God's judgment and figurative of a counterfeit truth. A bow can signify a doctrine of truth, or a doctrine of falsity. This link written in the 17th century is very informative.

 

And what would you say is going on in the end times when the beast (satan) sets up his kingdom of false worship for himself and the Lord comes to judge it?  It's the whole point of the end game and what is happening on earth at that time.  Putting other gods before Him has been His chief complaint with humanity since the beginning isn't it?

God bless

 

[fixerupper]

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Can you prove that with scripture? Just making a statement does not carry much weight. My answer would be, Yes it is associated - at least ONCE in this scripture of the first seal.

Prove what with scripture?  That all those passages were taken out of context?  If you think the verses posted about the bow has anything to do with the first seal you need to look at commentaries and resource books.  

Quote

This seal was opened around 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book from the Father. We know this from chapters 4 & 5 that are the context for the first seal.

So John writes about Jesus opening the first seal in AD 90-95, but it opened in 32 AD?  You have no problem with that?  You don't know the purpose of a seal.   A seal isn't something that opens slowly or over a long period of time.  They open quickly for our benefit as signs that a greater course of coming prophetic events.  Seals can't be something or someone that existed prior to when it was prophesied as this would make any prophet a false prophet.  Seals are so Christians living in the time of their opening can recognize the season of their passing.  They are the opening events of the last days and bigger things are coming.  To say they opened centuries ago or even over a long pperiod of time renders the purposefulness of the seals useless.

"Seals are the opening events to a greater course of coming prophecy, a disclosure or, "unveiling" of END-TIME events 'previously unknown' to us."

Quote

John used the color white 17 other times to represent righteousness. Therefore it should go without saying that this white horse represents righteous conquering. To imagine that God would chose white one time out of 18 to represent something else than righteousness would be silly. It just would not happen.  The horse probably represents warfare or conquering.

There are six words for white in the NT. In Rev. 6:2. The word white or 'leukos,' would be better translated 'light' since it comes from the root word 'light.' Leukos is a "white light."  It's also used as the sign of innocence and purity of soul.  BUT! In Rev. 6:2 and a few other verses it indicates 'dead white'.  This 'light' is a counterfeit white and symbolizes the false religion of Islam. 

Quote

So add it up: we have righteous conquering going forth, around 32 AD. There was only ONE ENTITY on earth God would consider righteous at that time, and that was the infant church.

I don't add things up the way you do.  Again.  You disregard the true purpose of 'a seal'.  A SEAL immediately precedes other opening events of the end-times. NOT 2,000 years prior to it.  You disregard that a TRUE prophet CANNOT PROPHESY about a seal opening in 90-95 AD that opened in 32 AD.    

Quote

If you can come up with something else around the time Jesus ascended that would be righteous and would be going forth to conquer or overcome, please show us.

The only reason you associate this seal with Jesus is because Jesus also rides a white horse.  You disregard the fact that this rider wears a 'stephanos' not a DIADEM!  "Conquering and to conquer."  Crossed swords signify 'conquest' in Islam.  

Quote

 

Strong's says for bow:  Toxon: (Where we get the word toxic):
"a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow. "

This is one time where I believe Strong's missed it completely. In English a "bow" can be fabric like a ribbon.  But "Toxon" comes from the poison put on arrow, apparently. To imagine this bow is like a bow made from a ribbon seems strange.

However, if Mr. Strong is correct, there goes fixerupper's argument.

 

I've seen some lexicons where BOUGH is used.  Probably means TURBANS!

                                    The Horseman's "bow" means to "struggle against much travail" in order to obtain a goal.

A bow is typically an article of war but most people have no answer why this rider has no arrows.  It's a bit unusual for a warrior or a hunter, even a jihad warrior, to carry a bow without arrows. 

I associate the four horsemen with Islam and the Arab's because of the bow. 

Bow from Strong's...
5115. toxon tox'-on from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow. 
At first it says a 'bow.' Then it mentions a simple fabric. 

I have seen some Greek lexicon's or root word translate bow as "bough." (Turbans?) 

The word bow comes from the base word Tikto #5088, 
notice...
1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
a) of a woman giving birth 
of the earth bringing forth its fruits 
c) metaph. to bear, bring forth 
The bow indicates the offspring of people that are out conquering and to conquer. It symbolizes the offspring of Hagar, Ishmael, and Esau.  Todaays Muslims engaged in JIHAD or HOLY WAY

I discovered that there are only a few people in the bible to whom a bow is personally attributed. (Elisha and Joseph)  They are Esau and Ishmael, they are the fathers of the Arabs. Islam is the religious offspring of Ishmael since Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael. Ishmael's descendants are today a mixture of the many Arabic tribes and clans that are symbolized by the iron and clay of Daniel 2, and the terrorism described in Habakkuk 1-2. 

This bow hints that it is the seed of Ishmael.  

The symbolism proves it.  

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Page semi-protected
Jihad (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād translates as a noun meaning "struggle."  Within the context of the classical Islam, particularly the Shiahs beliefs, it refers to struggle against those who do not believe in the Islamic God (Allah).[1] However, the word has even wider implications.

In the bible, the bow is symbolic of "evil conquest and designs," and a "struggle "against much travail in order to obtain a goal." 

Remember that jihad is "a struggle" and Islam's goal is world domination by abomination.

This seal describes holy war as a 'struggle' to conquer the infidel and ultimately conquering the world. 

The bow also denotes falsehood and deceit. (Ps. 64:3, 4; Hos. 7:16; Jer. 9:3).

Edited June 29, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

You can disagree all you want, I did not invent the greek language nor its rules.

Thats not how the greek language works.

Here is quick guide for you how verb tenses work

http://www.preceptaustin.org/greek_quick_reference_guide

If you can not through CONTEXT show a single one time event, the natural rendering of the verb tense takes affect to be continuous. End of!!!

this is your perception forced onto John, what constitutes a large amount that no one can count from JOHNS PERSPECTIVE, in otherwords, how long is a piece of string to John, not how long is a piece of string according to you.

one can not claim he is the bastion of truth when you break greek grammar rules, nor can one claim the bastion of truth when you just admitted you can neither prove your interpretation of Rev 7:14.

based on your own preconceived idology you have a chronological misfit of events in Revelation, and seem baffled why Christ only judges any dead in Rev 11.

i believe God is very much capable of bypassing your chronology.

You would have a better argument except for:

Many New Testament translators (some who have translated the entire bible) translate this verse as if it were a one time past tense event: The KJV translators for example. I would think that someone who has translated the entire New Testament would know what they are doing. I would think they would eat and sleep in Koine Greek. I would guess they would no more than you about Koine Greek. (I have never seen a "wingnut" translation.) Maybe you have: I don't know.

Since you seem to be the one knowledgeable of Greek here, if this was so cut and dried as you seem to make it, Why did all the first translations in to Greek Translate it as "which came..."  In fact, very few have translated as "coming."  (I found three translations with "coming.") This leads me to believe it is not as cut and dried as you make it to be.

It was the Holy Spirit that chose to tell us this group was too large to number.  Yet we find many large numbers in the bible.  this tells me this group is a very very large number of people. This seems not to fit your theory.

You are mistaken, MY Chronology is HIS chronology. I refuse to rearrange anything. For some though, it seems no problem at all.

I am not at all troubled: you cannot prove your theory either. It seems many translators disagree with you.

[fixerupper]

Quote

No, they are perfectly in context, as only one is coming and bringing judgement, and the passage.

Anyone can plainly see those passages are quoted way out of context.  Isaiah 41 is either talking about Cyrus or Abraham.  Isaiah 41 quoted out of context and fabricated to say Jesus as having a bow in Revelation 6:2.  Well done! 

Pslam 7:12 is a meditation of David, which he sang to the LORD concerning the words of Cush, a Benjaminite.  Another fabrication of the word BOW and Revelation 6:2.  Well done! 

Psalm 7:12  He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready:  This is talking about the readiness of God to judge the sinner.

Psalm 21:12 For you will put them to flight; you will aim at their faces with your bows.  This is talking about the wicked and God's judgment against the enemies of God.

I have to wonder what I'm doing here dealing with things that really are cut and dry, only to watch you so blatantly pervert the Word of God.

Quote

my mentor is the Holy Spirit, not men.

That's what they all try to pin their heresies on.

It just isn't a challenge anymore when people so blatantly pervert scripture to support a failed theory.

[Sister]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I don't buy it. John told us it was "that great city," and previously had written that the "great city" was Jerusalem. Why would John and the Holy Spirit behind John change the meaning of a word or phrase in the same book?

 

iamlamad,

The truth is written in plain sight, but hidden. 

 Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Because it only boils down to two great cities.  The kingdom of God, or the kingdom of Satan.

Two Cities only.

Zion and Babylon

All men spiritually dwell in one or the other.

Both cities are at war with each other.

It comes down to black and white,....night and day, darkness and light,

The kingdom of darkness, or the kingdom of light.

Both are referred to as Cities, because each one has a king over them.

What city was Jerusalem serving at the time of Christ's death? 

 

And after that, what city persecutes the children of God continually?

If we are hated because we dwell in Zion, and walk in righteousness, but suffer oppression and hate by the world, can we blame it just on Jerusalem?  Is Jerusalem responsible for the wickedness my neighbour did to me? 

Will God hold Jerusalem accountable?

This great city where our Lord was crucified is bigger than just Jersualem.

 

 

[wingnut-]

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

 Isaiah 41 is either talking about Cyrus or Abraham.

 

Isaiah 41:4 Who has performed and done this,
    calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, the first,
    and with the last; I am he.

 

So Cyrus or Abraham are the Lord according to you?

 

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Psalm 7:12  He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready:  This is talking about the readiness of God to judge the sinner.

 

Ok, so what part are you struggling with?  Surely you see the bow.

 

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Psalm 21:12 For you will put them to flight; you will aim at their faces with your bows.  This is talking about the wicked and God's judgment against the enemies of God.

 

Ok, and once again God has a bow, so what is the issue here?

 

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I have to wonder what I'm doing here dealing with things that really are cut and dry, only to watch you so blatantly pervert the Word of God.

 

Exactly how is pointing out scripture that states God has a bow perversion?  As to why you are here I can't say, but it appears from your posts it is to insult anyone who points out something you said is wrong.  You agree the last two passages are God judging people, and He has a bow.  As for Isaiah 41 I can't say how you draw your conclusion.

 

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

It just isn't a challenge anymore when people so blatantly pervert scripture to support a failed theory.

 

What theory is that?

[wingnut-]

On 6/28/2017 at 9:00 AM, iamlamad said:

Why is it your theories always seem to conflict with scripture? You really should go back and read about these 144,000 again and again until you get it.  "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Does this sound like "unbelieving Jews?"

 

Not that I am expecting you to address any of this, but here goes anyway.

 

II Corinthians 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

Now, if you read this scripture you should be able to see that believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  So a believer is already sealed, which means the 144,000 are not believers, as they require a seal.  They are sealed in chapter 7.

 

Revelation 7: 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

 

Now what you should note in the above, is that the 144,000 are not sealed on their heart, but on their forehead.  What else you should notice is that they are not referred to as virgins here.  And when we see them again in chapter 14 what do we see on their foreheads?

 

Revelation 14  Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

 

This is when we are told about their other characteristics.

 

Revelation 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

So, considering they are said to be blameless, do you think that is because these 144,000 were perfect like Jesus, or do you think maybe these qualities are described as a result of being MADE perfect?