Jesus' Return II

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Thanks wingnut

Thanks for those scriptures and for looking into it.  Maybe I am not explaining clear enough, but  I am trying to show you this;

Like I said before, the saints will be picked up to meet the Lord in the air, I am not refuting this, ....but it doesn't say that they will meet Christ in heaven, but in the clouds; 

1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The gathering of the saints is in the clouds.....not heaven.

 

Hello sister,

I agree completely on this as well, the gathering is in the clouds on the way to earth.

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

So my reasoning is this; how can Christ come out of heaven with his saints, when he is coming down to collect them in the clouds? 

He cannot come out of heaven with his saints before he has collected them?

 

Well, those who are already asleep are coming with Him, He brings them the scripture says.  Maybe the difference here is in our understanding of the group who are asleep.  The majority of believers will be dead as I see it, the great multitude John sees in heaven are all deceased people.  I don't think the number who are alive and remain will be very large, most likely it will be the 1/3 of Israel who come to belief in the wilderness that represent the group who remain alive.  The beast is going to kill most believers in his war against the saints, so the vast majority of the saints He will bring with Him.

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

So those armies he comes out of heaven with, must be the angels.

 

I agree that the angels will be coming with Him as well, no doubt.

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Now consider the order of this one;

 Mark 13:24   But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,   (after the tribulation)

 

Ok, here is where we differ on this part.  This verse states "after that tribulation", now you are defining this as the tribulation, which I am assuming you mean the great tribulation.  But what is it specifically that precedes this verse, which accounts for "that tribulation" Mark is speaking about?

It is all about the time of the beast that precedes this, which is the war against the saints.  Starting from verse 14 and the AoD, verse 19 lets us know that this is the great tribulation.  Verse 21 and 22 contain more warning about false christs and false prophets performing great signs and wonders, and verse 23 is that we have been forewarned.  Then we see the sign of His coming in verse 24, following the 3 1/2 years of the beasts war against the saints.  The Lord is not returning until the last of the martyrs have been killed, just as we are told back at the opening of the fifth seal.

 

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

This is the number we are waiting on to be complete, and note that they must be killed.  They will be killed by the beast in his war against the saints, as scripture tells us the saints will be conquered.  We are told this occurs in the exact same sequence given in the Olivet Discourse.

 

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

10 If anyone is to be taken captive,
    to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
    with the sword must he be slain.

Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

 

Verse 5 and 6 referring to the AoD.  Verse 7 tells us about the war and that the saints are ALLOWED to be conquered, in other words, killed.  Also verse 7 touches on the beast's kingdom and his GIVEN authority over the earth and the establishment of his worship.  Except for those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life, or, the elect.

Look closely at verse 9, if anyone has an ear, let him hear.  This phrase is used specifically in the New Testament, 7 times in the beginning of Revelation directed at each of  the 7 churches.  Verse 10, in regards to a very specific church.

 

Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

 

Even those who go into captivity will be killed.  The phrase "he who has an ear, let him hear" or similar versions of it, are all exclusive to the New Testament, the four gospels in particular as Jesus often said this in His parables, and John uses it often in the book of Revelation.  There is a reason for that, especially if you look where this is used and the topic of discussion.

I want to go back now and touch on this topic about who is following Him out of heaven and hopefully this clarifies things for you a bit on this.

 

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

Specifically in regards to the attire which I put in red above.

 

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
8 it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

 

In Revelation 6 and 7 we see the souls under the altar and the great multitude receive their white robes, and we are told that they were made white in the blood of the Lamb.  So these dead saints are definitely part of the army following Him out of heaven.  I agree with you that we most likely do not participate in the battle itself, but we will be following Him out.

God bless

[Marilyn C]

23 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Specifically in regards to the attire which I put in red above.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
8 it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

 

Hi wingnut,

Just popped in to clear up the `clothed in fine linen, white and clean.` This is revealing that they are `holy,` whether they are holy saints or holy angels. The wife of the Lamb is clothed in pure and white linen, however the army that comes with the Lord, as He said is His angelic army. The Lord is the Captain of the angelic hosts. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31,  25: 31,  Luke 9: 26  & 2 Thess. 1: 7) Angels are described as `holy,` symbolically  `clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 15: 5 And the seven angels came out of the temple,.....clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

regards, Marilyn.

[Sister]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Just popped in to clear up the `clothed in fine linen, white and clean.` This is revealing that they are `holy,` whether they are holy saints or holy angels. The wife of the Lamb is clothed in pure and white linen, however the army that comes with the Lord, as He said is His angelic army. The Lord is the Captain of the angelic hosts. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31,  25: 31,  Luke 9: 26  & 2 Thess. 1: 7) Angels are described as `holy,` symbolically  `clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 15: 5 And the seven angels came out of the temple,.....clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn

Thanks for pointing all that out, ....Rev 15:5 is the bees knees!

Can I just ask your opinion on one thing?.....do you think that angels can be called saints also?  Just wondering.

 

Wingnut

I will get back to you later on your reply.  Thank you brother.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

How about the fact it is a made up term that doesn't exist in scripture?  For one so quick to throw condemnation out at others, you really should heed the warnings about adding to the book.

Still waiting for you to show where this is stated in the book of Revelation.  All I see are people refusing to repent outside of the one group in Jerusalem following the second woe.

We don't need to ask, it is rather obvious, they are unbelieving Jews which is why they require the seal being placed on their forehead.  Your guess would be wrong, if they were believers they wouldn't require the seal on the forehead, they would have the seal of the Holy Spirit.  They also wouldn't need to hide out in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years either.

Of course you're changing it, because you still have people dying after the dead are raised.  And the order Paul gives does not allow for that, only two resurrections of the living, the first one following Christ's resurrection, and the only other being at His coming.  You want to add two or three more resurrections in there, and that is indeed changing it by adding to it.

I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (past resurrection), then at his coming those who belong to Christ.  (Only other resurrection, the first resurrection as John calls it)

 

Nothing in between, nothing after other than the resurrection of the dead following the millennium.  When you add two or three more in there, you are in fact trying to change it.  No matter how many times you say it, it will not be true.

 

 

No one will survive the sudden destruction outside of the group in Jerusalem that give glory to God, when God gives a prophecy and says "they will not escape", you can take that to the bank.  Every single unbeliever is toast, as Peter gives a clear description of why.  Fire that melts the heavens and the earth and the elements.

 

The word first is fairly compelling.  The fact that Paul only gives one more resurrection as well makes two witnesses, no amount of talking around the scripture or adding extra events will convince me otherwise.

That's exactly what I said.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Sure looks like many of them were dressed like that since the fifth seal was opened.

The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected, they were resurrected when Jesus was.  They are in the first group from I Corinthians 15, the resurrection from the past, only one left, which would be the first resurrection from Revelation 20.

God bless

What do many people call that time of the 70th week? Mark shows us:

Mark 13:24

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 

John tells us there will be SAINTS on earth during the "tribulation" Luke tells us of:

 

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

 

Therefore it is NOT a made up term. It is a very scriptural term. WHERE do they come from? It is logic. And it is also scripture. Some of us know that it cannot be the Bride of Christ, for she will have escaped to heaven as seen in Rev. 7.

In Rev.  12, we see there is only a remnant left that serve Jesus Christ. And this is before the days of GT.

 

Why is it your theories always seem to conflict with scripture? You really should go back and read about these 144,000 again and again until you get it.  "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Does this sound like "unbelieving Jews?"  And you blame me for making something up? It is NOT the 144,000 that flee into the wilderness! These are two separate groups of people.

 

"Of course you're changing it, because you still have people dying after the dead are raised."  Sorry, but John SHOWS us people dying after the dead are raised. Did you not read about all those that die when fire comes down from heaven and burns them up - those that attempted to fight against Jesus at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ? That would be people dying after the "first" or primary resurrection John speaks of in Rev. 20.

 

"And the order Paul gives does not allow for that, only two resurrections of the living, the first one following Christ's resurrection, and the only other being at His coming." Sorry, but you make something very simply into a complex mess. Indeed, Christ rose, and some of the Old Testament saints rose with Him.  Matthew does not tell us all of the Old Testament saints rose: are you adding that - the very thing you blame me for. Read carefully:  " the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose..." There is a difference between "many" and "all."  They will indeed take part in "the first" or primary resurrection. But then, when the Bride of Christ raises, they too will be a part of that SAME RESURRECTION. When the 144,000 are raised, they too will be a part of that same resurrection. When those beheaded by the beast raise, they too will be a part of that first resurrection. This is a simple concept: I cannot imagine why you struggle with it. John sets NO TIMING for this first or primary resurrection; he only writes of it in chapter 20. But the truth is, all the righteous up to this time will take part in it. To say that no one can die after this first resurrection is just making up nonsense that is not scriptural. There is no verse that says no one can die after the "first resurrection."

 

" Christ the firstfruits (past resurrection), then at his coming those who belong to Christ. " This is a simple verse that is not hard to understand. Christ was the very first human to take part in this first or primary resurrection. Then later, the Bride of Christ will take part in the very same "first" or primary resurrection.  Then later those who have been beheaded will take part in the very same "resurrection." This is not a difficult concept. God Himself chose to name a resurrection for all the righteous UP TO THAT POINT IN TIME as the "first" or chief or primary resurrection. Why would anyone attempt to attach a DATE to this resurrection when God Himself did not?

 

Then after the 1000 years, there will be another resurrection. I count two. If God chooses to have yet another later, that is His business.

Edited June 28, 2017 by iamlamad

[Sister]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello sister,

I agree completely on this as well, the gathering is in the clouds on the way to earth.

Cool!

 

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Well, those who are already asleep are coming with Him,

Yes, but they will be coming from the clouds to the kingdom on earth.  They have to come down sooner or later for the millennial reign.

 

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Maybe the difference here is in our understanding of the group who are asleep.  

Yes I think this is where we differ.  I believe the dead are dead until the resurrection.  They don't know anything, and there is no "time" ticking in the grave.  There is one exception however, and that's the 24 elders.

Quote

The majority of believers will be dead as I see it, the great multitude John sees in heaven are all deceased people.  

The great multitude would be all of the saints combined....the dead and those alive picked up and quickened all assembled together.  The interesting thing is that they are shown after the 144,000 are sealed, but that's another topic!

Quote

I don't think the number who are alive and remain will be very large,

I agree with you there;

Quote

most likely it will be the 1/3 of Israel who come to belief in the wilderness that represent the group who remain alive.

I'm not too sure about that one.  The remnants of Israel will be brought into the kingdom "in the flesh", because they are not part of the resurrected saints.....but will be at the 2nd resurrection.

 

Quote

The beast is going to kill most believers in his war against the saints,

Yes, the scriptures are clear on that.

Quote

so the vast majority of the saints He will bring with Him.

...down to Jerusalem on the earth! 

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done "one earth" as it is in heaven.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Ok, here is where we differ on this part.  This verse states "after that tribulation", now you are defining this as the tribulation, which I am assuming you mean the great tribulation.  But what is it specifically that precedes this verse, which accounts for "that tribulation" Mark is speaking about?

It is all about the time of the beast that precedes this, which is the war against the saints.  Starting from verse 14 and the AoD, verse 19 lets us know that this is the great tribulation.  Verse 21 and 22 contain more warning about false christs and false prophets performing great signs and wonders, and verse 23 is that we have been forewarned.  

Then we see the sign of His coming in verse 24, following the 3 1/2 years of the beasts war against the saints.  The Lord is not returning until the last of the martyrs have been killed, just as we are told back at the opening of the fifth seal.

Amen, I agree with you.

I'll reply to the rest later.  It's so good that you are looking into this and taking the time to dialogue with me.  Thankyou.
 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (past resurrection), then at his coming those who belong to Christ.  (Only other resurrection, the first resurrection as John calls it)

 

Nothing in between, nothing after other than the resurrection of the dead following the millennium.  When you add two or three more in there, you are in fact trying to change it.  No matter how many times you say it, it will not be true.

Yes, indeed Christ was resurrected in the past. I agree. And at his 1 thes. 4 coming those who belong to Christ will be risen. You imagine these are two separate resurrections - and indeed they will happen perhaps 2000 years apart, but you totally miss the point: BOTH are a part of the "first" or primary resurrection. So will the next "wave" if you will permit me, of those beheaded during the days of GT. All of these will take part in this first or primary resurrection.

You are trying to attached a DATE to this first or primary or chief resurrection, when neither God nor the Holy Spirit did. The truth is, ALL the righteous, from Jesus to the end of the 70th week, will be included in this first or primary resurrection.

Please take note: These are verses using the very same Greek word translated as "first" in the "first resurrrection."
    
Matthew 20:27  And whosoever will be chief G4413 among you, let him be your servant:

Mar 6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief G4413 estates of Galilee;

Mar 10:44  And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, G4413 shall be servant of all.

Luk 15:22  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best G4413 robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Luk 19:47  And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief G4413 of the people sought to destroy him,

Act 13:50  But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men G4413 of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

There are many more: I just got tired of pasting.

You want this "first" to mean first in a sequence. that is not John's intended meaning. Yes, it will come first in sequence before the next resurrection John mentions, because that one will be after the 1000 years.

The truth is, this "first" or chief of resurrections is for all the righteous - no matter when they are raised - from Christ up to the last person beheaded during the days of GT.

 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

If one places this 1 thes. 4 coming after the days of GT, then all the tribulation martyrs would be included. But if one correctly places the 1 Thes. 4 coming before the 70th week, then Paul leaves out all the trib' martyrs. That is no problem because John includes them in Rev. 20. In fact, if one really studies Rev. 20 rather than just casually reading it, they would discover all the righteous up to that point in time are included in one resurrection - the chiefest or primary resurrection.

Therefore your "first" argument is meaningless.

" No one will survive the sudden destruction outside of the group in Jerusalem "  Your theories are amazing. Paul did not say this, and neither did anyone else in scripture. If I am mistaken, please show us this in scripture.  I can see that attempting to force Paul's 1 Thes. 4 coming with John's Rev. 19 coming ends up causing many other area of theory to be off also.  Now you have stolen the goats from the sheep and goat judgment. Now you have stolen the tares from the parable of the tares. The truth is, MANY survive, even though this will be a worldwide earthquake. For example, HOW MANY will be in airplanes at the moment of Paul's "sudden destruction?" Will the earthquake shake them?  Some may die later, because they cannot find a safe runway to land in, but the "sudden destruction" will not kill them.  When Paul said, "they will not escape" he was not saying they would all die! One can be in the epicenter of an earthquake and live through it. They did not escape it, for they felt the ground shaking: but they did not die. 

The truth is, NO ONE KNOWS WHEN "the elements will melt with fervent heat." A few people have seen visions of the earth burning, and people running into the ocean, and then even the water catching fire. Paul tells us our works will be "tried by fire." Was Peter speaking of this fire, or was Peter speaking of the days after the 1000 year rain when John saw a NEW earth? Does this earth get renovated by fire - or does God just do away with it and create a new one? No one really knows. I believe John when he tells us the old earth disappeared and no place was found for it. In any case, there is no proof whatsoever that Paul's "sudden destruction" will be fire. I believe it will be a worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

The word first is fairly compelling.  The fact that Paul only gives one more resurrection as well makes two witnesses, no amount of talking around the scripture or adding extra events will convince me otherwise.

I will agree if John wrote it in English. But the truth is, the same Greek word has been translated in different ways. It can mean first in time, but certainly does not have to mean this. It can mean first in rank or priority or influence or honor. The point you miss is, John did not attach a date to this primary resurrection. It is not something that is fixed in time. It is a title to cover all resurrections to a glorified body from Jesus to the end of the 70th week. 

Did it every occur to you that Paul might not have known anything about how saints that were martyred in the Day of the Lord would get resurrected - or when? He covered the saints (Jesus as the first fruits) and then covered the church. Did you not know that even Jesus in "firstfruits" does not convey the meaning of being first in sequence? Strongs tells us "persons superior in excellence to others of the same class." Your theory that this primary resurrection is placed at a certain place in time is bogus. In fact, it probably covers around 2000 years.

The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected, they were resurrected when Jesus was.  They are in the first group from I Corinthians 15, the resurrection from the past, only one left, which would be the first resurrection from Revelation 20.

Total myth.

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Just popped in to clear up the `clothed in fine linen, white and clean.` This is revealing that they are `holy,` whether they are holy saints or holy angels. The wife of the Lamb is clothed in pure and white linen, however the army that comes with the Lord, as He said is His angelic army. The Lord is the Captain of the angelic hosts. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31,  25: 31,  Luke 9: 26  & 2 Thess. 1: 7) Angels are described as `holy,` symbolically  `clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 15: 5 And the seven angels came out of the temple,.....clothed in pure and white linen.`

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

regards, Marilyn.

 

I agree that the angels are dressed in the same manner, but scripture says He will bring with Him those who are asleep as well.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Jezebal was a queen and Ahab's wife of the kingdom of Israel in the 9th century BCE ....did God keep Jezebel alive for a thousand years from the 9th century BCE to 96 AD just so Christ can send Thyatira a letter about Jezebel? 

 

We obviously dealing with the spirit of jezebel.

Sorry, missed it again: Jezebel was a WOMAN attending a church.
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

As usual, you sidestep the real question: can God use the two words together, "Great" and "Tribulation" to mean any other time but those days of GT that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24. And just to assist you, the correct answer is YES.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Jezebel was guilty of spilling the blood of the prophets - 1 Kings 18:3-4; 13

Your imagination is running wild! Do you imagine that that Jezebel of old is the ONLY WOMAN EVERY WITH THAT NAME? Wake up! John was writing to a woman alive in HIS TIME.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

These 7 churches are congregation "types", these letters were sent to be prophetic of their types in the end times. This is easily proven for example the church of Philadelphia no longer exists but its prophetic type does in order to fulfill its letter of a door being open to them, having the key of David, the historic philadelphia church never fulfilled this. 

In fact, they are both: there is no question they were written to speak to people living at that point in time, as in the woman named Jezebel. But I agree, they are also types that fit any time in the church age.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Oh but I do, see thats the difference between our two positions

They which come out of the great tribulation} (hoi erchomenoi ek tˆs thlipse“s tˆs megalˆs).

Present middle participle with the idea of continued repetition. 

If john wrote in English with an "ing" ending on a verb, I would say you have a leg to stand on here. But He did not. It is a Greek word.  I will admit, it COULD have a continuing action but does not HAVE to have a continuing action. I most certainly can mean a NOW action:

Notice, SAME word used other places:

Mat 2:11  And when they were come G2064 into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother,

There was a moment in time when they entered the house.

Mat 2:23  And he came G2064 and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

There was time when he was traveling, but there was a POINT in time when He entered Nazareth. He did not enter the city over and over again.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting G2064 upon him:

Perhaps there was a time when the Holy Spirit was descending, but there was a POINT in TIME when the Holy Spirit landed.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; G2064 and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Do you anticipate Jesus coming continually? I don't.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh G2064 with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Do you anticipate Jesus coming continually? I don't.

Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come G2064 unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Again it is NOT a repeated or continual coming. It is a ONE TIME coming.

Rev 5:7  And he came G2064 and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Again, showing us a ONE TIME event.

I could show many more but why? It is easy to see, if one removes preconceived glasses, that this Greek word translated as come or came can certainly mean a one time coming.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary states: "came—rather as Greek, "come"; implying that they are just come. "  (Emphasis added)

Gill's commentary adds:  " out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Hebrews 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel; and the persecutions under the Roman emperors, both Pagan and Arian..."  (Emphasis added)

Coffman Commentaries:

(This one at first seems to be on your side of this argument)

This verse is the principal proof-text for sponsors of the Great Tribulation theory; but the words "they that came are translated from the present middle participle, meaning they continue to come." ^F52 Bruce translated this, "These are the comers. ^F53 This positively identifies the "coming" of these white-robed saints w dispensation. "The whole history of the church is a time of tribulation. ^F54 "The Great Ordeal (tribulation) is a prolonged process, which from John's temporal standpoint was partly past and partly future." ^F55 Right here is the key to Rev. 1:19. Many of the scenes in Revelation mingle visions of things past, present, and future simultaneously. Any neat little scheme of making one section of Revelation past, another present, and yet another future, collapses in a careful understanding of the text. We agree with Beckwith that, "There is nothing here which points to any one particular distress." (Emphasis added)

Here is the truth: at the rapture, the church will suddenly be caught up. It will be a one time event that takes place at one point in time. But many of those caught up came out of their great tribulation at different times: that is the dead in Christ. Each generation had people who came out of their tribulation. But at this point in time, John saw the whole crowd there around the throne. Many of the dead in christ had already been there for centuries. They came out of their tribulation one at a time.  But now they are all there together.  They died one at a time, but there was ONE MOMENT IN TIME when they were raised to a new resurrection body.

So there is little agreement among the commentators. And there is little agreement between us. 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I agree that the angels are dressed in the same manner, but scripture says He will bring with Him those who are asleep as well.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

God bless

Preconceptions again: this argument has gone on for many years: WHICH COMING? You are hinting that this 1 Thes. coming is the same coming as Rev. 19. There is simply no proof these are the same.  Untold millions of believers are convinced they are NOT the same.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Quote

 Stephen to today

Stephen is not part of the martyred group in Rev 6:9 because he asked God to forgive not avenge. The souls under the altar are asking for venengence. John is focused on a specific group ina specific time of a multitude of dead martyrs.

 

This is a theory, but I don't believe it. There is nothing in John's text to show that they all want revenge: 100% of them.

If one actually studies a text, rather than just casually reading it, one can determine that the timing of the opening of the 5th seal was very soon after Christ ascended. It is impossible to find 2000 years between any of the previous verses: it is just not there. But at the fifth seal is the first hint of a long wait. Therefore, seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Whether or not Stephen forgave his murderers, he was a martyr.

Edited June 28, 2017 by iamlamad