Post-Trib, Post-Wrath Rapture = second coming

[BobRyan]

23 hours ago, Keras said:

Your case above for the Church to be taken to heaven, isn't that all Christians will be raptured to heaven at all, because such an idea contradicts the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

Our citizenship is kept in heaven, but we never go there. Escapism is not an option and to hope and believe in that is wrong. Hebrews 12:8

John 14 " In My Father's house...I GO to prepare a PLACE for you... I will come AGAIN and RECEIVE YOU to myself so that WHERE I am THERE you may be also"

--- yes that is right - all saints go to heaven

John 13: ”³⁶ Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.” ³⁷ Peter *said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You.”

 

-- Peter will be one of them -- that go to heaven

Edited September 7, 2017 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

20 hours ago, Keras said:

Thanks for your opinion. Which is all it is.  Interpreting the Words of Jesus to suit a doctrine is a serious matter. 

You use of John 14:2-3 as a rapture proof, just shows the sad lack of any real scriptural proof for that theory. It is plainly told to us in Revelation 21:1-2, that the city that those worthy will inhabit with Jesus and God, comes down from heaven after the Millennium. At no stage do we go to heaven; in the end, heaven comes down to us. 

You are not following the discussion... so then . numbered points for summary.

 

1. Tribulation and 7 last plagues - Rev 16

2. Second Coming and Rapture - Rev 19:20:5 (all saints taken to heaven to be "'with Christ" for 1000 years) 1 Thess 4, John 14:1-3

3. 1000 year  millennium starts with the "first resurrection" which takes place at second coming -  when all saints are raptured to heaven to be with Christ.

4. End of 1000 years (Rev 20, 21) New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven ... the wicked dead are raised and surround the New Jerusalem... Great white throne judgment - wicked cast into the lake of fire... earth burned up.

5. Rev 21 the New Earth - the saints and the New Jerusalem on Earth for all eternity Rev 21-22 - and God here as well.

 

--- steps 1-through-5 are in the view  I am promoting. Your argument is that you accept some part of 4 but not 2, is  your choice (you have free will). But it is clear to see how in this scenario - they do not conflict with each other.

Edited September 7, 2017 by BobRyan

[Keras]

Bob, you miss rather a lot of what must happen before the GT!

Here is a list of the end time events, supported by 30 scriptures:  

End times sequence:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3  It will be the Sixth seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5  It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

      The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.  Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected land, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of true Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31

The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and His resurrected saints.

                                             

 The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast    into the lake of fire.  Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10,    Revelation chapter 21

 

There is no rapture to heaven at any time, but at the end of the 7000 years decreed for mankind, God and therefore heaven come down to earth for eternity. 

[BobRyan]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

Bob, you miss rather a lot of what must happen before the GT!

Here is a list of the end time events, supported by 30 scriptures:  

 

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

 

The Ten horns of Daniel 7:24 and Rev 13 - are the ten divisions into which the pagan Roman empire of Daniel 7 split... a long time ago as even the Protestant Reformers knew.

 

Most study bibles will tell you that in Daniel 7

1. Lion -- Babylon

2.Leopard - Medes and Persians

3.Bear - Greece

4.Dragon - pagan Rome

5. Ten horns on the dragon -- division/split of pagan Rome

6. 11th horn that takes out 3 of the original ten -- papal Rome.

 

The entire sequence in Daniel 7 is depicted in composite form in Rev 13:1-8 since John looks back on that event and then describes what it will do in the future.

 

Historic events from the POV of our day... not future ones to our day.

Edited September 8, 2017 by BobRyan

[WilliamL]

On 9/6/2017 at 4:48 PM, Keras said:

Your case above for the Church to be taken to heaven, isn't that all Christians will be raptured to heaven at all, because such an idea contradicts the Words of Jesus:

Marv did a fine job of refuting your belief. I'll add the Scripture I keep quoting:

Heb. 12:22-24 But ye are come unto Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels [not on earth], To the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all [not on earth], and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...

Heavenly Jerusalem is ... in heaven. Duh. It is where God is, as Paul attests. The elect will be taken there long before the New Jerusalem descends to the newly-created earth 1000 years later.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This Jerusalem is there in heaven NOW. That is where the elect will be taken "to Jesus" when he returns in the clouds. To deny these things is to deny the plain witness of Paul's testimony.

Rev. 4:2 ...a throne was set in heaven, and one [God] sat on the throne.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne...and worshipped God... 14 These [the great multitude] are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

There they all are: the elect who will come out of the great tribulation: with Jesus, with God, and with the angels, just like Paul says will be the case in Heb. 12. The truth of these scriptural witnesses is inescapable.

[Keras]

The basic premise of a rapture removal to heaven is unsupported by any scripture. It is only by inference and supposition that such an idea is believed.  All of the prophesies that have been used to prove a rapture can be seen to actually mean something else altogether.

 

It is Written that we Christians are not appointed to experience God’s wrath. So it is assumed by the rapture adherent’s that this means removal, but they make this assumption without consideration of the many verses saying how God will protect His people during His times of wrath and judgement upon the ungodly.

 

We Christians have been told what we are expected to do:

 Matthew 28:19-20 Go to all the peoples, baptize them and teach them all that I have commanded you and I will be with you always, to the end of time.

Jesus is with us spiritually now and will be here physically after He Returns for His Millennium reign.

This does not in any way even hint that we leave our work on earth and go to heaven. Jesus comes down from heaven and eventually God too, will dwell on earth. Rev 21:3

[BobRyan]

On 9/7/2017 at 4:54 PM, Reinitin said:

Thess 2? doesn't it say dont believe people that tell you Christ has already come because the lawless one the anti-christ will be revealed first?

True - that makes it post-trib and allows for it also to be post-wrath given that 2Thess 2 makes the 2nd coming the point that fulfills the goal and focus of the church regarding Christ's return.

[BobRyan]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

The basic premise of a rapture removal to heaven is unsupported by any scripture.

Until you read John 14:1-3

[Reinitin]

27 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

True - that makes it post-trib and allows for it also to be post-wrath given that 2Thess 2 makes the 2nd coming the point that fulfills the goal and focus of the church regarding Christ's return.

depends. matthew (24 or 25 i forget which) is possibly tribulation we face but not the wrath of God poured out yet. remember there are most likely 3.5 years after the peace treaty with israel. I image Anti-Christ will be exposed to most christians. I can't nail it down but its possible we do have go through the labor pains.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Reinitin

[Keras]

57 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Until you read John 14:1-3

That prophecy proves a rapture to heaven?  You must be joking!  Heaven isn't even mentioned there. 

Jesus will come again:  His Return, and take you to Himself:  gather His people; those who have proved their faith during all that happens before Jesus Returns. Many mansions: the New Jerusalem, that will come down to earth after the Millennium.

A rapture removal to heaven, is a very critical doctrine. Why is there no specific scripture that plainly tells us about it?  Why is that idea so argued about among Bible studiers; pre, mid or post? 

But the clincher is the many prophesies that say it is the destiny and the privilege of us Christians to occupy all the holy Land,where we will be the people God always wanted there; His witnesses and the Light to the nations.  THAT will be like Heaven!