Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining?

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Can there be any doubt that the spirit of lawlessness is now diligently working to destroy Americaʼs restraining (but waning) power against lawlessness; that is, that this spirit is subverting the governmentʼs ability to hold fast to the order of U.S. law and world law?

 

Just a quick bit of history to consider, as far as America restraining lawlessness when in fact our government has been one of the biggest perpetrators of lawlessness on the planet.  I can offer you one simple example that was made known public in 1971 when Pentagon documents were printed by the New York Times, and then the Washington Post.  The classified documents revealed that the White House from the Truman administration, Eisenhower administration, Kennedy administration, Johnson administration, up to and including the Nixon administration, were engaged in crimes against the Constitution of the United States, as well as international war crimes that violated the Geneva convention.  This included government corruption, interfering with a sovereign nations election process (Vietnam), numerous counts of perjury, falsifying official documents, lying to Congress, as well as to the American people.

 

[Justin Adams]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

I guess we have conflicting versions of scripture.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I guess we will just have to wait and see who was correct in their translations.

It is not a 'he' in the Greek. Our modern translations are so poor in regards to the underlying tenses and verb forms. It is a NEUTER thing. Maybe a 'system' or something like that. It takes digging to find out the text structure. Much of the Greek implication is glossed over by our inability or unwillingness to understand Greek forms.

"So far, we have learned verbs in PRIMARY TENSES, meaning that the tenses refer to action in the present or future. We have also learned one of the SECONDARY TENSES (tenses that refer to past):  the IMPERFECT tense. This unit introduces us to the most common secondary tense: the AORIST. Both the imperfect and aorist tenses describe actions of the PAST TENSE. They differ in what is called ASPECT. Before discussing how to form the aorist tense, it is important to understand what we mean by the grammatical term, aspect.

Aspect

TENSE locates the action of a verb in time, relative to the time of the speaker. The basic tenses are:

Past

Present

Future

ASPECT is a grammatical term that expresses the relationship between the ACTION of a verb and the PASSAGE OF TIME. Aspect describes whether the action, regardless of its tense, is:...."

https://ancientgreek.pressbooks.com/chapter/31/

 

 

[Justin Adams]

The Greek word translated "he be taken" (KJV) and "he comes into being" (RPT) is the word γένηται (Gtr. genetai). It is a second aorist, middle, deponent, subjunctive, of the Greek verb γίνομαι (Gtr. ginomai) which has the basic meaning of "to come into existence", "to be created", "to be born", or "to be produced". The verb γίνομαι occurs 678 times in the New Testament, and is used with great latitude in the KJV. Translations include "be" (255x), "come to pass" (82x), "be made" (69x), "be done" (63x), "come" (52x), "become" (47x), "God forbid + μή" (15x) lit. "may it not come to be", "arise" (13x), "have" (5x), "be fulfilled" (3x) etc. It is mistranslated "being ended" (John 13:2), where a literal translation would be "having come into being", but nowhere does it have the sense of anything being "taken" away, unless there are other words with it to indicate it. The Greek verb γίνομαι (Gtr. ginomai) is translated in the sense of "arise" in the following scriptures:

(Matthew 8:24) "there arose a great tempest in the sea."
(Matthew 13:21) "when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word,"
(Mark 4:17) "when affliction or persecution arises for the word’s sake,"
(Mark 4:37) "And there arose a great storm of wind,"
(Luke 6:48) "and when the flood arose,"
(Luke 15:14) "there arose a mighty famine in that land;"
(John 3:25) "Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews"
(Acts 6:1) "there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews,"
(Acts 11:19) "the persecution that arose about Stephen"
(Acts 19:23) "there arose no small stir about that way."
(Acts 23:7) "there arose a dissention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees;"
(Acts 23:9) "And there arose a great cry;"
(Acts 23:10) "And when there arose a great dissention,"

In every one of these cases the word "arose" could be replaced by "came into being" or "came to pass" without and change of meaning. The word "arises" could be replaced by "comes into being" or "comes to pass" without any change of meaning. There is no thought of anything being "taken away" in any of these scriptures, and the verb "ginomai" should never be translated with any idea or thought of anything being "taken" away, unless it is clearly specified by other words, which in this case it is not.

https://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP355-9-2Thessalonians2v7.htm

Edited June 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[R. Hartono]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If the Holy Spirit was what Paul was alluding to, then why would he have not just said so??

Well if that is the US & Trump why cant Paul just write it as a kingdom and its leader ???

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Just a quick bit of history to consider, as far as America restraining lawlessness when in fact our government has been one of the biggest perpetrators of lawlessness on the planet.  I can offer you one simple example that was made known public in 1971 when Pentagon documents were printed by the New York Times, and then the Washington Post.  The classified documents revealed that the White House from the Truman administration, Eisenhower administration, Kennedy administration, Johnson administration, up to and including the Nixon administration, were engaged in crimes against the Constitution of the United States, as well as international war crimes that violated the Geneva convention.  This included government corruption, interfering with a sovereign nations election process (Vietnam), numerous counts of perjury, falsifying official documents, lying to Congress, as well as to the American people.

You are absolutely right about that Mamarica.

Even what you knew is Not including the bloody conspiracy in history you never learn in American school text book.

[Justin Adams]

The FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES is a 'what', and 'event', not a he. See the Greek. So ask yourself, is constant bickering and theological diatribes contributing to the DELAY of the fullness of the gentiles?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

Can you say, "153 fishes"?

:-)

[OneLight]

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 - Greek

• 6 and now the detaining you-are-aware into the to-be-unvailed him in the of-him era.
• 7 the for secret already is-operating of-the lawlessness only the one-detaining at-present till out of-midst may-be-becoming

More of an English reading:

6 And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era.  7 For the secret of lawlessness is already operating.  Only when the present detainer may be coming to be out of the midst

Now, I don't remember ever doing any research on this, but maybe you have.  Can you show me scripture where man or anything physical has ever held back Satan or his demonic powers?  There is overwhelming scripture showing that only spiritual can withhold spiritual, but not physical withholding spiritual.

Who is restraining or detaining is not clear , so the best we can do is guess, the same as the timing of the rapture.  All just a persons best guess.

[seeking the lost]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:57 AM, WilliamL said:

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know the [thing] restraining [lit., holding down/fast; the Greek is neuter: ‛that which restrains/holds down’],

that he [the Son of Perdition] may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only the one now restraining/holding down [the Greek here is masculine: ‛he who restrains/holds fast’]

[will do so] until he is come out of the midst.

Matthew Henry (d. 1714): “This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time...” [The New Testament writers never openly spoke ill about the Roman authorities. If, as some claim, Paul here meant the Holy Spirit, then there would have been no reason at all for him to speak about it so obscurely.]

A. R. Fausser (1871): “...the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [OLSHAUSEN]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as "he who now letteth" refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [ALFORD]. The "what withholdeth" refers to the general hindrance; "he who now letteth," to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up. Romanism [papal Catholicism], as a forerunner of Antichrist, was thus kept in check by the Roman emperor (the then representative of the coercive power) until Constantine, having removed the seat of empire to Constantinople, the Roman bishop by degrees first raised himself to precedency, then to primacy, and then to sole empire above the secular power.”

 

Can there be any doubt that the spirit of lawlessness is now diligently working to destroy Americaʼs restraining (but waning) power against lawlessness; that is, that this spirit is subverting the governmentʼs ability to hold fast to the order of U.S. law and world law?

And that the current “he who restrains/holds fast” is the President of the United States, Donald Trump? (However incompetent to the task he may be.)

And that the Son of Perdition is waiting in the wings, preparing to step onto the stage as a deliverer during the coming time of economic and political chaos?

There is evidence for your argument of lawlessness.  The restrainer is the same in the day that this was written to the Thessalonians and this day.  There is not a person or a government that has endured for that period of time.  The Holy Spirit does have that role.  The Holy Spirit may work with and through people and governments but the Holy Spirit is the one that holds all things together.

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The restrainer is the same in the day that this was written to the Thessalonians and this day.  There is not a person or a government that has endured for that period of time.  The Holy Spirit does have that role.  The Holy Spirit may work with and through people and governments but the Holy Spirit is the one that holds all things together.

Very brilliant bro. ???

Edited June 25, 2020 by R. Hartono