The "Day of the Lord: Where in Revelation does it begin?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, SONshine said:

Don’t even agree.  The DOTL begins the millennium.

Please, show us scripture!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The DOTL lats 3.5 years, any student of the bible should know this via study. 

The Wrath of God can be said to have COME at the 7th Trump without STARTING at the 7th Trump. 

So, the National Championship Football game has come.............then in the Fourth quarter you can still announce the National Championship has come, even though it is i the Fourth Quarter. These are simple things that somehow get misconstrued. 

Good example. Please, show us in scripture that the DOTL lasts 3.5 years. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

7th Seal opens the Judgment book, the First Judgment is the First Four Trumps which all begin the Day of the Lord, they are all the same event. 1st Trump is the fire coming in of the asteroid which I think is the Apophis space rock heading our way on April 13, 2029. The Mountain is the the next Trump, but its the impact that comes after the fire, same event. The next Trump is the star that hits, well its just the Mountain/Rock shown coming in on fire this time because it poisons the waters, so the same rock is shown as producing Nuclear Fallout here, or coming in hot. 

Trump #4 is the after affects of the blast/impact, its the Sun and Moon going dark. So, this begins the Day of the Lord. Seals 1-6 is just Prophetic uttering's by Jesus. We know that because the first 5 are about the Anti-Christ and the 6th are about the First Four Trump events, it even shows us that with the Sun and Moon diminishing its light. 

they are all the same event I get your point: if the first trumpet is nuclear war, then the second and third trumpets are the result of that war. I would not have written as you did - causing the reader to imagine all four trumpeters sound together.

So, this begins the Day of the Lord.  Why doesn't it begin when the Day of His wrath begins - the 6th seal? Or why doesn't it begin with the first event AFTER the 6th seal: trumpet #1? If it is the disaster is sounds like, all the grass burned, and 1/3 of the trees, is not this the beginning of the destruction of the world and the sinners in the world: the Old Testament definition of the Day of the Lord? All the grass burned up is "destruction." Then we read this in Joel 1:

¹⁸ How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

What does Joel tells us about this?

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Does not this prove that the DAY starts right when John tellls us it starts: at the 6th seal and perhaps WITH the first trumpet judgment - so that first trumpet would be the first salvo of the Day of the Lord? If not, why not?

Then we have this in Isaiah 2:

 

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. [the 6th seal earthquake]

²⁰ In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

²¹ To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. [the 6th seal earthquake]

This is almost word for word what John wrote at the 6th seal earthquake. What else does Isaiah tell us about that day?

¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Is not this proof that the DAY starts right where John tells us the DAY starts - at the 6th seal? If not, WHY not?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, SONshine said:

In a nutshell, the "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.(7th Trump)

 

John was taken there in Revelation 1:10.

Revelation 1:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Christ’s return at the 7th trump (THE LORD’S DAY) will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.  

Matthew 24:15 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In a nutshell, the "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.(7th Trump)  Hmmm.  And John wrote that the Day of his wrath would begin at the 6th seal. Do you have a verse that tells us (bold won't turn off)

Is there a verse that shows CLEARLY that Jesus returns to earth at the 7th trumpet? I have never found such a verse.

John was taken there in Revelation 1:10. No.It was on a SUNDAY (the Lord's day - the day He arose from the dead) that Jesus appeared to John. John was not take to the future - He only saw visions of events in the future. This is proven because the vision began at a time when Jesus was still on the earth or under the earth (chapter 4 vision of the throne room).

Christ’s return at the 7th trump (THE LORD’S DAY) will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.   Sorry, but it is the BEAST (a man) that comes claiming to be God. Remember Paul said the man of sin would enter the temple and proclaim he was God? Where is this event in Revelation? It is at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet will sound marking the point in time that the man of sin declares he is God  

Finally, can you find at least ONE verses that shows us a "coming" at the 7th trumpet? Most people find His coming in chapter 19, after the week has ended.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

6th Seal. Same pattern as in Moses' and David's time. An examination of the term parousia in the New Testament makes this unmistakable. From my blog https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

Matthew 24:3 : …the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?” ... 27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in front of our Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia?

3:13 …may [Jesus] establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

5:23 …may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the above passages, Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture/catching up into the clouds of all the saints in Christ, will take place at His parousia.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now brethren, concerning the parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by word or by letter, as if through us, as though the Day of Christ [alt., of the Lord] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasia comes first, and the Man of Sin [alt., Lawlessness] is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god. … 8 … this Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His parousia.

The apostle Peter also prophesied about the parousia of the Lord:

2 Peter 3:3 …scoffers will come in the Last Days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His parousia? … 10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat… 11 Therefore…what manner of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the parousia of the Day of God…?

The parousia is the day of the Lord, when the dead rise at the return of Christ in the clouds to take up his elect, right after the great heavenly and earthly cataclysms at the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29-31.

If I understand, you are claiming a 6th seal rapture? Then a 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord?

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

6th seal - 7th trump. No, they cannot be together. The seals are sealing the book that contains the trumpets. There are two other possibilities: God gets angry and gets over it quickly, and nothing happens. Then gets angry again and stuff happens. I don't believe this scenario. The other possibility: God the Father gets angry and the Day of His wrath begins: 6th seal - and he is STILL angry at the 7th trumpet because after all the trumpet judgments people refuse to repent. See how simply this can be solved?

Wrath is said to come at both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. No. It appears that way in English. I will remind you again what Strong's tells us of he Aorist tense verbs:

"Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered
without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for
this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations."

John is just acknowledging that wrath exists at the 7th trumpet. Of course it does, because it comes INSIDE the Day of His wrath. Or, God got angry, then got over it quickly, then got angry again. I know someone that believes that.

is also the last trump from 1 Cor 15:52,  Some people believe this. I don't. One is the trump of God, the other is sounded by an angel. One is the last trump of one series, the other is the last trump of another series. On Paul's last trump the rapture takes place. On the other last trump or 7th trump the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus. This means TWO DIFFERENT "last trumps," one actually called that in scripture, for two different purposes and coming at two different times. Just because one finds similar words does not mean two verses fit together. We must consider TIME, and the the context of each verse. An example: someone saw "ten" virgins, and "ten" kings so they have to be the same thing. How silly is that?

 

Wow, after so many strike outs, you walk up and calmly blast a grand slam clean out of the park. It could still be going.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

What you are missing: any kind of knowledge of passing time in Revelation. the 6th seal is before any part of the 70th week. the 7th trumpet is the midpoint of the week. Just because of TIME, they cannot possibly be the same event. How is anyone (even God) going to read and bring to pass something written inside the scroll or book before all the seals are opened: it is impossible. You and I will continue to disagree.

Man, back to striking out. The 70th week is over before the wrath of God begins. Well, I enjoyed the grand slam. Well done.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

they are all the same event I get your point: if the first trumpet is nuclear war, then the second and third trumpets are the result of that war. I would not have written as you did - causing the reader to imagine all four trumpeters sound together.

 

Yea, I don't see it as a Nuclear War. Its an asteroid strike. It even has a name. Apophis is set to come within 20 k miles of earth on April 13, 2029, that is 10 TIMES closer than the moon, it supposedly has a 3 percent of hitting just off the California Coast. That is going to be the DOTL event, IMHO. The time is now, we see Pestilence, we see Lawlessness, we see Israel in her home country. 

Scientists say that with a huge asteroid the fire comes in first, then the Impact. Its not the same thing per se, but it is. One is the fire, one is showing John its a Space Rock {Mountain} and the other is showing John what a blast like this causes via it coming in on fire, Nuclear Fallout that poisons the fresh waters. Its never a star, that would consume our world to collide with a star, its just John describing a space rock/asteroid coming in hot. Then the sun and moon going dark is what killed of the Dinos over time. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So, this begins the Day of the Lord.  Why doesn't it begin when the Day of His wrath begins - the 6th seal?

Because the Seals are not Actionable, the First 5 Seals are Jesus prophesying about the coming Anti-Christs 42 month reign, the 6th Seal is Jesus Prophesying about God's coming 42 month Wrath. The reason they are intertwined is because the USA getting destroyed by the asteroid, IMHO, is what gives this man his needed room to achieve his goals, everything is in chaos, the 1/3 part of the world is put out of commission, the Pacific Ocean and the Americas. This leaves the E.U. Beast to do as he so pleases. He goes forth as God's Wrath goes forth, because that is his opening. The books of Judgments can not be opened until all 7 Seals are opened. 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Or why doesn't it begin with the first event AFTER the 6th seal: trumpet #1? If it is the disaster is sounds like, all the grass burned, and 1/3 of the trees, is not this the beginning of the destruction of the world and the sinners in the world: the Old Testament definition of the Day of the Lord? All the grass burned up is "destruction." Then we read this in Joel 1:

It does begin with Trump one, but Trump one, is just the fire off the asteroid, the asteroid plunges to earth at almost the same time, and the STAR {Trump #3 is the MOUNTAIN in Trump # 2, God is showing John its a space rock/mountain, then he shows him its on fire  and poisons the water. The Trump #4 is just showing what the impact will cause, of course there will be a huge plume of dust, debris and smoke that will blot out the skies around the whole world. 

So, it does start at the First Trump, but all Four are an asteroid striking the earth. Fire, Mountain, Star, DARKNESS...All from one event. That is why Apollyon is released basically on day 1260, this happens and the 5th Trump, which is the first Woe happens next. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What does Joel tells us about this?

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Does not this prove that the DAY starts right when John tellls us it starts: at the 6th seal and perhaps WITH the first trumpet judgment - so that first trumpet would be the first salvo of the Day of the Lord? If not, why not?

Yes, but the 6th Seal is Jesus DESCRIBING the coming Day of the Lord via the asteroid IMPACT seen in Trump #1-4. The Seals are not actionable. We can see the Anti-Christ/Beast is described in the first four seals as per his actions over the coming 42 month period of time, 1. Conquering 2. War {takes peace} 3. Famine 4. Death & Sickness. Then the 5th Seal is the Tyrant Beasts Martyrs over 42 months. If Joel Prophesied about the Day of the Lord why can't Jesus be PROPHESYING about it at the 6th Seal? Foretelling what is about to happen up in Heaven as he opens each Seal to this scroll, which can't be read until he opens all 7 Seals or think of them as LOCKS on a Book. You see, I though the Seals were actionable wrath for 25-30 years, but it became evident to me that the Seals are just locks on a book of Judgments that can not be read by Jesus until he opens all the Seals. Thus all the Seals are Prophetic uttering's about what is just around the corner, then we get the SILENCE because Judgment is falling. And Seal #6 matches up with the First Four Trumpets. The Day of the Lord describes all the EVENTS SEEN in Rev. 8. So, when God's Judgment starts, Satan and the Anti-Christ who is privy to DARK SENTENCES {Daniel 8:23-25} will understand, this is the time to strike, while everyone else's head is turned to the disaster going on in the Americas//Pacific Ocean. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is almost word for word what John wrote at the 6th seal earthquake. What else does Isaiah tell us about that day?

 

And its describing the Trumpet Judgments.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Is not this proof that the DAY starts right where John tells us the DAY starts - at the 6th seal? If not, WHY not?

John is DESCRIBING the coming 42 month Wrath of God. Which begins with an asteroid strike. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good example. Please, show us in scripture that the DOTL lasts 3.5 years. 

The DOTL is the same day the Beast goes forth Conquering, what happens with an asteroid Impact like the one that killed all the Dinos? Its a Great Earthquake, the sun and moon turns dark and he saw stars falling, either that is Satan getting cast out of Heaven or he saw the impact as a star, and in Trumpet #3 he calls it a STAR. Once I understood the Four Seals were the Anti-Christs coming 42 month reign on earth, and the 5th Seal was his Martyrs over 42 months, then the 6th Seal had to be a Prophetic utterance also, God's Symmetry is always perfectly aligned. That is why the 7th Seal is Silent, no more Prophetic uttering's, its Judgment time.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Wow, after so many strike outs, you walk up and calmly blast a grand slam clean out of the park. It could still be going.

Man, back to striking out. The 70th week is over before the wrath of God begins. Well, I enjoyed the grand slam. Well done.

One day, maybe after you arrive in heaven, you will find your prewrath theories were bogus all along. You COULD learn it now. But then you will know it for sure!  Thanks for the home run! I needed that. Continue on being LIGHT! ;-)

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, SONshine said:

@iamlamad  The 7th trump is the very last trump and the one where we will all be changed into our spiritual bodies.  This is the moment Jesus returns to the earth and the millennium begins.

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I have read what happens at the 7th trump many many many many times. Somehow I never read of the dead being raised at the 7th trumpet  - but I DO read that Satan loses the world and Jesus gains it - just as if it is a DIFFERENT last trump than Paul had in mind - you know - a different series of trumpets. But feel free to believe what you will. 

[missmuffet]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you are saying Christ comes WITH the Day of the Lord: it starts when He comes? Would that be His Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon?

Yes