The "Day of the Lord: Where in Revelation does it begin?

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is totally wasted effort to answer posts based on myth. DO have a nice day!

Yes, I know. You don't have an answer. You are stumped. What you are saying is not correct and you don't have a response yet. Maybe it will come to you. In the meantime I will post the problem again.

Well you have a huge problem. You are saying that the abomination of desolation is set up at the 7th trump which begins the great tribulation and yet we see the great tribulation in rev 7. Another problem is this proves the 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So you say the great tribulation happens at the 7th seal. Clearly you are in error. Instead of hiding, or imagining a way around the situation, have you ever thought about accepting the truth and trying to seek the truth? Or is the answer, Run Forest, Run?

Not to mention that you had no answer to Rev 12:5. It's just been a bad day for you.

Edited July 9, 2020 by The Light

[Revelation Man]

37 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Hi there, Revelation Man...  Okay, in 2 Peter 3:10, the way I understand it, the word “elements” refers not to elements such as gold, iron, oxygen, etc., but rather, it refers to rudiments, as in evil rudiments and sin.  These “rudiments” will be burned up.  The earth isn’t going anywhere.  After the millennium and the great white throne judgment, eternity begins and the New Jerusalem descends to a rejuvenated earth.

2 Peter 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No sir, you are looking at this wrong brother. Let me post the passage in full, then go to Rev. 20 and 21 for clarification.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So, this earth is a prime candidate for HELL.........The Lake of fire, the Sea even passes away, it says there is no more sea, that mans this earth burns and thus the sea evaporates. IMHO, this earth will be hell, Satan will have won his Kingdom, LOL. And all his minions will remain here with him so this earth will no longer be as it was, it shall pass away [ as we knew it], and we will get a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH that comes down from the Heavens unto us. 

So, all that happens after the 1000 year reign, in Rev. 20:7 the devil/Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, he goes to deceive the Nations one more time then is cast into the Lake of Fire, which IMHO, is on earth. 

So, we do indeed get a New Heaven and a New Earth, no one wants to live in this environment when we can have a pure environment. Amen. I think the Church is in the New Heaven and New Earth when it descends. Thus its called a Bride. Only the Martyrs who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast {Rev. 20:4} live and reign on earth with Jesus for the 1000 years. I think the Raptured Church are preparing the New Heaven and New Earth. 

[luigi]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Question: WHEN did this happen? WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down?

Why would you be quoting Rev 5:6 preceding the lamb (Christ) opening the seals in Revelation 6? To answer your question, the Lord was slain circa 32 AD, so Him opening the seven seals would have to be after 32 AD. What does the opening of the seven seals that tell us what is to occur during the end times have to do with the sequencing of events in Revelation 6?  Let's try to stay on topic.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by luigi

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

Why would you be quoting Rev 5:6 preceding the lamb (Christ) opening the seals in Revelation 6? To answer your question, the Lord was slain circa 32 AD, so Him opening the seven seals would have to be after 32 AD. What does the opening of the seven seals that tell us what is to occur during the end times have to do with the sequencing of events in Revelation 6?  Let's try to stay on topic.

 

I did not write it, John did. It was God showing John and then John showing us that Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Yes, of course AFTER He ascended. How could He get the book which was in the Father's hand while He was on earth? He ascended, got the book, and began opening the seals. That is John's God given chronology. 

You see, you have imagined that the first seals were end time, when God, John were in 32 AD. In other words, the endtimes do not arrive until the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord. This parallels Matthew 24 where Jesus spoke war wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc, and said "the end is not yet." In other words, all these things are church age and the beginning of sorrows. Most people just read right over "the end is not yet." And most readers read right over Rev. 5 and ignore the context of the first seals.

[luigi]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I did not write it, John did. It was God showing John and then John showing us that Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Yes, of course AFTER He ascended. How could He get the book which was in the Father's hand while He was on earth? He ascended, got the book, and began opening the seals. That is John's God given chronology. 

You see, you have imagined that the first seals were end time, when God, John were in 32 AD. In other words, the endtimes do not arrive until the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord. This parallels Matthew 24 where Jesus spoke war wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc, and said "the end is not yet." In other words, all these things are church age and the beginning of sorrows. Most people just read right over "the end is not yet." And most readers read right over Rev. 5 and ignore the context of the first seals.

Good morning iamlamad,

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD, and is so when John is shown the lamb opening the seven seals regarding the future. The Lord may have opened the seals upon His ascension circa 32 AD, only to show John again later circa 95 AD, when the book of Revelation was written, Him opening the seals to show John, but that does not mean the events under the seals were for that time. According to Revelation 4:1, John is called up to heaven to be shown things that shall take place thereafter. Who do you see as the four horsemen of the apocalypse being ancient events, and not end time events? What is your explanation for why the Lord would mix your hypothetical ancient events that represent the four horsemen that culminate with the wrath of God being poured out on the beast's worshippers? How do these mix? There has to be some sort of correlation. You don't just mix one series of unrelated events with another series of unrelated events. 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

Good morning iamlamad,

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD, and is so when John is shown the lamb opening the seven seals regarding the future. The Lord may have opened the seals upon His ascension circa 32 AD, only to show John again later circa 95 AD, when the book of Revelation was written, Him opening the seals to show John, but that does not mean the events under the seals were for that time. According to Revelation 4:1, John is called up to heaven to be shown things that shall take place thereafter. Who do you see as the four horsemen of the apocalypse being ancient events, and not end time events? What is your explanation for why the Lord would mix your hypothetical ancient events that represent the four horsemen that culminate with the wrath of God being poured out on the beast's worshippers? How do these mix? There has to be some sort of correlation. You don't just mix one series of unrelated events with another series of unrelated events. 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is called up to heaven to be shown things that shall take place thereafter. SO MANY PEOPLE imagine John wrote that God would show him ONLY things hereafter - as if putting God in a future box as if He could not include things of the past.  

Question: DID God show John events in his future? We would all have to agree YES. Many future events. Did God say anything that would make Him a liar if He included even one tiny thing that was history?  No, God did not put Himself into a future box. 

It is very simple: John was really "early church" compared to 2000 years. God started the visions at the beginning of the church and planned to cover from that time to the end - and He did. He chose to start with the Book while the book was in the hand of the Father. That would have been before Christ ascended. He did not have to - He chose to. But since that was in 32 AD and John was now in 95 AD, God HAD To include some history into the vision. It was HIS CHOICE. 

For that that can read Revelation with no preconceived glasses, they can see the panorama of the entire church age. but a concentration of the final 70th week.  God chose to show us the martyrs of the church age. He did not have to but chose to. This shows us Martyrs are very special people to God! However, martyrs stretch from James and Stephen all the way to the end of the church age to come. When we read what God told those martyrs when they were wondering how long it would be before judgment, it gives us a strong hint to the end: they are told that God will wait for the final number of martyrs (of the church age). I mediated on this for a good length of time. What would make the last of this group of martyrs? it would be the pretrib rapture that would end the church age. Any martyr after that would be in a different group: the 70th week martyrs, shows in Rev. 15.

In short, God was telling them they would have to wait until the rapture of the church and THEN judgment would come. Therefore, just in this one seal I see the entire church age. Why was it the 5th seal? Sending out the church was more important: so it was seal #1.   How the devil would attempt to stop the advance of the gospel was important, so that was seals 2, 3  & 4. 

So God takes the reader from the start of the church age (actually from Jesus getting the book from the Father) to the far future from us today. I strongly believe that the moment a seal is opened, that event takes place, right them, immediately. Every indication John could give us seems to back this up. 

Did you ever stop to imagine the first readers of this book, in 95 AD? They had no idea the church age would go for almost 2000 years! By the way, I suspect the 4 horsemen are SYMBOLIC. I don't think there is a rider on a white horse advancing the gospel. of course there could be! I think these are symbolic. 

why the Lord would mix your hypothetical ancient events that represent the four horsemen that culminate with the wrath of God being poured out on the beast's worshippers? How do these mix? There has to be some sort of correlation.  They are all church age, from the beginning to the end. God chose to show us both. Many refuse to believe it, but its true anyway: John takes us a a STRAIGHT path through time: no flashbacks, only parentheses and prophecy. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by iamlamad

[luigi]

18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John is called up to heaven to be shown things that shall take place thereafter. SO MANY PEOPLE imagine John wrote that God would show him ONLY things hereafter - as if putting God in a future box as if He could not include things of the past.  

Question: DID God show John events in his future? We would all have to agree YES. Many future events. Did God say anything that would make Him a liar if He included even one tiny thing that was history?  No, God did not put Himself into a future box. 

It is very simple: John was really "early church" compared to 2000 years. God started the visions at the beginning of the church and planned to cover from that time to the end - and He did. He chose to start with the Book while the book was in the hand of the Father. That would have been before Christ ascended. He did not have to - He chose to. But since that was in 32 AD and John was now in 95 AD, God HAD To include some history into the vision. It was HIS CHOICE. 

For that that can read Revelation with no preconceived glasses, they can see the panorama of the entire church age. but a concentration of the final 70th week.  God chose to show us the martyrs of the church age. He did not have to but chose to. This shows us Martyrs are very special people to God! However, martyrs stretch from James and Stephen all the way to the end of the church age to come. When we read what God told those martyrs when they were wondering how long it would be before judgment, it gives us a strong hint to the end: they are told that God will wait for the final number of martyrs (of the church age). I mediated on this for a good length of time. What would make the last of this group of martyrs? it would be the pretrib rapture that would end the church age. Any martyr after that would be in a different group: the 70th week martyrs, shows in Rev. 15.

In short, God was telling them they would have to wait until the rapture of the church and THEN judgment would come. Therefore, just in this one seal I see the entire church age. Why was it the 5th seal? Sending out the church was more important: so it was seal #1.   How the devil would attempt to stop the advance of the gospel was important, so that was seals 2, 3  & 4. 

So God takes the reader from the start of the church age (actually from Jesus getting the book from the Father) to the far future from us today. I strongly believe that the moment a seal is opened, that event takes place, right them, immediately. Every indication John could give us seems to back this up. 

Did you ever stop to imagine the first readers of this book, in 95 AD? They had no idea the church age would go for almost 2000 years! By the way, I suspect the 4 horsemen are SYMBOLIC. I don't think there is a rider on a white horse advancing the gospel. of course there could be! I think these are symbolic. 

why the Lord would mix your hypothetical ancient events that represent the four horsemen that culminate with the wrath of God being poured out on the beast's worshippers? How do these mix? There has to be some sort of correlation.  They are all church age, from the beginning to the end. God chose to show us both. Many refuse to believe it, but its true anyway: John takes us a a STRAIGHT path through time: no flashbacks, only parentheses and prophecy. 

You did not answer the question as to why the Lord would mix ancient events alongside end time wrath events in Revelation 6. If you cannot provide a plausible answer for why the Lord would mix ancient data with end time data in regards to the seven seals, I will then continue to believe the more logical conclusion, which also corroborates the Lord informing John in Revelation 4:1 that the things he will then be shown after Revelation 4 regard the future. The four horsemen therefore represent end time events, which then lead up to the wrath of God commencing to be poured out upon those who love what is wrong. 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, luigi said:

You did not answer the question as to why the Lord would mix ancient events alongside end time wrath events in Revelation 6. If you cannot provide a plausible answer for why the Lord would mix ancient data with end time data in regards to the seven seals, I will then continue to believe the more logical conclusion, which also corroborates the Lord informing John in Revelation 4:1 that the things he will then be shown after Revelation 4 regard the future. The four horsemen therefore represent end time events, which then lead up to the wrath of God commencing to be poured out upon those who love what is wrong. 

Sure I did: God started with the book: while the book was still in the hand of the Father, before Jesus rose from the dead. In fact, He started before that in the first part of chapter 4: the throne room scene was before Christ rose from the dead. WHY did God choose to start there? You will have to ASK Him! I can only guess that He wanted to make sure the readers would understand that the vision of the throne room was a vision of John's past, from before Jesus rose from the dead, to WHEN He arose from the dead, to the time He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I can guess He did this for the CONTEXT of the first seals - so the readers would know those first seals were church age and not end times. It is only a guess. 

It is not "mixing," it is showing the ENTIRE CHURCH AGE. If you insist the four horsemen are end times, they you pull them out of the context of chapters 4 & 5. You may wonder WHY I believe what I do about chapters 4 & 5. 

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be?”

 

I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that question!” He continued:

 

“Why in the search for one found worthy to break the seals - that John watched end in failure, was ‘no man found?’ If you read ahead, you will see that I was found.”  Again I answered:

 

“Lord, I cannot answer that question either.” He continued:

 

“You will notice that in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is in the throne room, yet I said, ‘when I go up, I will send Him down.’ Why is the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, in chapter 4?  Again I said that I could not answer.

 

I spent perhaps another few weeks mediating on chapters 4 & 5, trying to find the answers to these questions. I prayed in the spirit, I meditated, I prayer more, meditated more, but could not answer His questions. Finally, the Lord took pity on my slowness, and spoke again: “Go study chapter 12.”

 When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

 

I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

 Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses!  

For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

 Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

 If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these.)

 We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure? Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

 The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

 NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

 Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

 Finally we come to the 5th seal, the ONLY seal with a hint of a long wait. Because many have misunderstood the timing, they have supposed these to be 70th week martyrs. No, they are CHURCH age martyrs, and Stephen was one of the first. If we understand what God said to them, we have a HINT to the timing of the rapture. Stop for a moment and think: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would have NO REASON to ask how long, for they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. But consider Stephen: he did not know how long the church age would be...and he has waited nearly 2000 years. They were told they must wait until the very last martyr was killed in the same manner they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (John could not have been speaking of how each one died, for they were all different: the one COMMON thing - they were all killed as church age martyrs.) So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age would cause the end of church age martyrs; anyone martyred after this would be classified as a 70^th week martyr. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church will end the church age!

I might add, if you disagree with my answer to the three questions, it will be what Jesus said: you will never understand this part of John's vision. 

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sure I did: God started with the book: while the book was still in the hand of the Father, before Jesus rose from the dead. In fact, He started before that in the first part of chapter 4: the throne room scene was before Christ rose from the dead. WHY did God choose to start there? You will have to ASK Him! I can only guess that He wanted to make sure the readers would understand that the vision of the throne room was a vision of John's past, from before Jesus rose from the dead, to WHEN He arose from the dead, to the time He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I can guess He did this for the CONTEXT of the first seals - so the readers would know those first seals were church age and not end times. It is only a guess. 

 

You deny the Word by claiming Revelation chapter 4 is before the Lord rose from the dead, when the Lord clearly indicates to John in Revelation 4:1 that what John is about to be shown regards the hereafter, which is after the 1st century AD. I keep pointing this fact to you, and you seem to constantly deny it and spin it to fit a contradictory narrative. Will you produce another two thousand word diatribe, rather than a simple, clear, and concise response?

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

You deny the Word by claiming Revelation chapter 4 is before the Lord rose from the dead, when the Lord clearly indicates to John in Revelation 4:1 that what John is about to be shown regards the hereafter, which is after the 1st century AD. I keep pointing this fact to you, and you seem to constantly deny it and spin it to fit a contradictory narrative. Will you produce another two thousand word diatribe, rather than a simple, clear, and concise response?

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

You are trying to REWRITE what John wrote: Here is your version:

I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter.

Sorry, John did not say that. You are putting God in a future box that He, God, never put himself in.

Is this part of Revelation future or past? Rev. 12:

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth....

Just to be sure you did not miss this:

"I might add, if you disagree with my answer to the three questions, it will be what Jesus said: you will never understand this part of John's vision. "

Edited July 11, 2020 by iamlamad