Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:00 AM, Diaste said:

It's a great omission that pretrib refuses to acknowledge the 100,000 believers that perish every year at the hand of mankind for their belief in Jesus and their testimony of His Lordship.

Where is their 'rapture'?

They have not been taken before Rev 5. Another 11 will die for Jesus today. Why don't they get a rapture?

Be careful lest you find you fit into this verse....

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

That could well speak to those who would ridicule and make fun of the idea that the righteous that make up the church of Messiah are removed at the point before the Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.   Notice that Jeremiah 30 says it is the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Chruch's trouble.    

And there are differing saints.  OT saints, church saints, tribulation saints.  Yeshua even set some of that delineation in....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Operative, being "I will build".   That is future tense so it relegates the saints that came before Acts 2 as OT saints, not of the church.  Redeemed yes, but not the church proper which is also called the body of Messiah and also the bride of Messiah.

The parable of the pearl (Matthew 13) is a good illustration of the Church as it is today.    A pearl is from an oyster, which is non kosher.  The church is primarily of a gentile construct today, i.e. non kosher.  A pearl is created in the oyster as a response to irritation, the church grows as a response to irritation and persecution in the world.  The pearl, like the church, grows by accretion, and then then it is removed and placed as an item of adornment.  Much as the church / bride of Messiah is removed and becomes an item of adornment.   And Messiah paid the high price to purchase that pearl with His own blood.

That also ties into the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual which is a great study.  Yeshua was fond of alluding to the Hebrew marriage.    

When a potential groom would come to take a bride, they would agree to the covenant between them and a cup of wine would be shared.  Yeshua did that at the last supper.  Then the groom would pay the dowry or price for his bride.  Yeshua did that at the cross.   Then the groom would go back to his home to begin preparation of the wedding chamber.  Yeshua said He would be doing that in John 14.   The groom in not allowed to go retrieve his bride until his father approved of the wedding chamber.  So a potential groom, when asked when the marriage would be consummated, he would respond "only my father knows".   Yeshua said the same in several passages that only the Father knows the time.

When it came time, the groom went to gather his bride.  He would not enter her house, but call for her to come out to Him.  Paul stated as much in 1 Thessalonians 4.   The groom and bride would return to the wedding chamber and remain there for 7 days / one week (Daniel 9 comes to mind), consummating the marriage.   At the end of the 7 days, they would return and the wedding feast would begin.  The 7 day period would allow those who were invited to wedding feast to make ready.   

You can find a lot of info from some very good Jewish and Messianic scholars on the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual that supports this view.

Edited January 9, 2020 by OldCoot

[Alive]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Be careful lest you find you fit into this verse....

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

That could well speak to those who would ridicule and make fun of the idea that the righteous that make up the church of Messiah are removed at the point before the Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.   Notice that Jeremiah 30 says it is the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Chruch's trouble.    

And there are differing saints.  OT saints, church saints, tribulation saints.  Yeshua even set some of that delineation in....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Operative, being "I will build".   That is future tense so it relegates the saints that came before Acts 2 as OT saints, not of the church.  Redeemed yes, but not the church proper which is also called the body of Messiah and also the bride of Messiah.

The parable of the pearl (Matthew 13) is a good illustration of the Church as it is today.    A pearl is from an oyster, which is non kosher.  The church is primarily of a gentile construct today, i.e. non kosher.  A pearl is created in the oyster as a response to irritation, the church grows as a response to irritation and persecution in the world.  The pearl, like the church, grows by accretion, and then then it is removed and placed as an item of adornment.  Much as the church / bride of Messiah is removed and becomes an item of adornment.   And Messiah paid the high price to purchase that pearl with His own blood.

That also ties into the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual which is a great study.  Yeshua was fond of alluding to the Hebrew marriage.    

When a potential groom would come to take a bride, they would agree to the covenant between them and a cup of wine would be shared.  Yeshua did that at the last supper.  Then the groom would pay the dowry or price for his bride.  Yeshua did that at the cross.   Then the groom would go back to his home to begin preparation of the wedding chamber.  Yeshua said He would be doing that in John 14.   The groom in not allowed to go retrieve his bride until his father approved of the wedding chamber.  So a potential groom, when asked when the marriage would be consummated, he would respond "only my father knows".   Yeshua said the same in several passages that only the Father knows the time.

When it came time, the groom went to gather his bride.  He would not enter her house, but call for her to come out to Him.  Paul stated as much in 1 Thessalonians 4.   The groom and bride would return to the wedding chamber and remain there for 7 days / one week (Daniel 9 comes to mind), consummating the marriage.   At the end of the 7 days, they would return and the wedding feast would begin.  The 7 day period would allow those who were invited to wedding feast to make ready.   

You can find a lot of info from some very good Jewish and Messianic scholars on the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual that supports this view.

That was great, @OldCoot--thank you.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Be careful lest you find you fit into this verse....

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

That could well speak to those who would ridicule and make fun of the idea that the righteous that make up the church of Messiah are removed at the point before the Time of Jacob's Trouble begins.   Notice that Jeremiah 30 says it is the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Chruch's trouble.    

And there are differing saints.  OT saints, church saints, tribulation saints.  Yeshua even set some of that delineation in....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Operative, being "I will build".   That is future tense so it relegates the saints that came before Acts 2 as OT saints, not of the church.  Redeemed yes, but not the church proper which is also called the body of Messiah and also the bride of Messiah.

The parable of the pearl (Matthew 13) is a good illustration of the Church as it is today.    A pearl is from an oyster, which is non kosher.  The church is primarily of a gentile construct today, i.e. non kosher.  A pearl is created in the oyster as a response to irritation, the church grows as a response to irritation and persecution in the world.  The pearl, like the church, grows by accretion, and then then it is removed and placed as an item of adornment.  Much as the church / bride of Messiah is removed and becomes an item of adornment.   And Messiah paid the high price to purchase that pearl with His own blood.

That also ties into the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual which is a great study.  Yeshua was fond of alluding to the Hebrew marriage.    

When a potential groom would come to take a bride, they would agree to the covenant between them and a cup of wine would be shared.  Yeshua did that at the last supper.  Then the groom would pay the dowry or price for his bride.  Yeshua did that at the cross.   Then the groom would go back to his home to begin preparation of the wedding chamber.  Yeshua said He would be doing that in John 14.   The groom in not allowed to go retrieve his bride until his father approved of the wedding chamber.  So a potential groom, when asked when the marriage would be consummated, he would respond "only my father knows".   Yeshua said the same in several passages that only the Father knows the time.

When it came time, the groom went to gather his bride.  He would not enter her house, but call for her to come out to Him.  Paul stated as much in 1 Thessalonians 4.   The groom and bride would return to the wedding chamber and remain there for 7 days / one week (Daniel 9 comes to mind), consummating the marriage.   At the end of the 7 days, they would return and the wedding feast would begin.  The 7 day period would allow those who were invited to wedding feast to make ready.   

You can find a lot of info from some very good Jewish and Messianic scholars on the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual that supports this view.

Any advocacy for any other scenario of the return of Jesus that places that return before the A of D ignores real evidence. Any advocacy for a secret return of Jesus before His stated return manufactures evidence and ignores the written word. I presented the following:

 

It's a great omission that pretrib refuses to acknowledge the 100,000 believers that perish every year at the hand of mankind for their belief in Jesus and their testimony of His Lordship.

Where is their 'rapture'?

They have not been taken before Rev 5. Another 11 will die for Jesus today. Why don't they get a rapture?

 

Please deal with this and we can have a conversation. Otherwise I am not interested.

 

[OldCoot]

So you did a cut and paste and just reiterated what you said earlier.  Nice.  But repeating something twice does not lend more support. Unless you are following the Joseph Goebbels methodology that if one takes a falsehood and repeats it often enough that eventually it becomes the perceived truth.   Which seems to be the case here.  So I would concur..... I am not interested.

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So you did a cut and paste and just reiterated what you said earlier.  Nice.  But repeating something twice does not lend more support. Unless you are following the Joseph Goebbels methodology that if one takes a falsehood and repeats it often enough that eventually it becomes the perceived truth.   Which seems to be the case here.  So I would concur..... I am not interested.

Yeah, some people don't get it the first time or second etc.

Why not just show me where it is wrong? How many resurrections do you say? And does your count require "special" understanding, like redefining things, contradictions and colliding scriptures? C'mon Coot, I showed Jesus gathering the saints, the dead in Christ rising at virtually the same time, Jesus declaring that NO MAN KNOWS the day or hour, the bride getting her attire at the END, then they are in the air as Jesus comes....what mero do you want? 

Show me the Gobbels factor here. Which one of these things that I said is "a falsehood"? 

I showed that the number of resurrections required by the pre trib scenario doesn't match scripture. Is THAT false? 

[OldCoot]

At least 4 resurrections.  The first happened in Matthew 27.  There will be another in Revelation 11.   A third one in Revelation 20.   And the one I have tickets for is the one prior to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble as per Isaiah 26 and Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians.

[ENOCH2010]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

At least 4 resurrections.  The first happened in Matthew 27.  There will be another in Revelation 11.   A third one in Revelation 20.   And the one I have tickets for is the one prior to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble as per Isaiah 26 and Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians.

The Bible says 2, the first resurrection and 1000 years later the other one. Rev. 20

Edited January 10, 2020 by ENOCH2010

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible says 2, the first resurrection and 1000 years later the other one. Rev. 20

Well, you missed the other two.  I gave the scripture references.  

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible says 2, the first resurrection and 1000 years later the other one. Rev. 20

I can think of a 3rd - the resurrection of the OT saints that occurred ar the time of Christ's resurrection:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt.27:51-53)

[JoeMo]

I'm a newbie here; and I have not read all 150 pages of this subject.  Through my  study, I have come to believe in a "pre-wrath" tribulation.  There are places in Daniel and Revelation that indicate that the saints are still on earth until the harvest mentioned in Rev. 14:14-20.  Assuming Revelation is somewhat chronological, this occurs between the trumpets and the 7 bowls of God's wrath. This is just my current opinion.

I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time without notice!