Eternal Salvation – From the Perspective of Life

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Of course, it was God who had produced their transformed lives by the work of regeneration. Even though Paul rejoiced in the Philippians’ generous gift and their evidences of spiritual growth, his confidence did not rest ultimately on them but on God, who would preserve them and enable them to reach the goal. The “good work” refers to the salvation begun at their conversion. God not only initiates this salvation, but continues it and guarantees its consummation at the glorious coming of Jesus Christ, which will vindicate both the Lord and his people. Nothing in this life or after death can prevent the successful accomplishment of God’s good work in every Christian.^[1]

Those who stop believing in Christ forfeit the benefits available to those who continue steadfast.

(Heb 3:12)  Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
(Heb 3:13)  but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(Heb 3:14)  For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
(Heb 3:15)  while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
 

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

No faith = No access to the Grace of God, as per the illustration.

(Rom 5:2)  through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

(Eph 3:12)  in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

(Heb 11:6)  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
 

If a young boy hears an accusation that his father is not his biological father, he may BELIEVE IT or he may not. Either way his biological father is fixed forever. The things of God are shown by the creature (Rom.1:20).

Added to this, we do not discuss a man with "No faith". We discuss a man who once had faith, was forgiven, was born again, and partook of the divine nature, who turns from his faith. Faith saves and is a gift of God. Faith fading does not undo the work. It awaits confirmation in the day of judgment. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says all men will be resurrected. Lack of faith does nothing. the man will be resurrected. A man cannot undo what God has done. He does not have the power.

[AdHoc]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Those who stop believing in Christ forfeit the benefits available to those who continue steadfast.

(Heb 3:12)  Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
(Heb 3:13)  but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(Heb 3:14)  For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
(Heb 3:15)  while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
 

Yes. But the case given must be examined.
- Did the men of war have unbelief? YES
- Did the men in unbelief stop being sons of Abraham? NO
- Did the unbelief annul the Covenant? NO. Only non-circumcision can do that
- Will those in unbelief one day be restored to life? YES (Ezek.37)
- Will those in unbelief annul God's promises? NO
- Did the unbelief end in not being saved by the Lamb of Egypt, or did it end in no inheritance of the Good Land?

The sum of these questions results in Israelites staying Israelites, staying eligible for the promises, but achieving them at a much later date

[Michael37]

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

If a young boy hears an accusation that his father is not his biological father, he may BELIEVE IT or he may not. Either way his biological father is fixed forever. The things of God are shown by the creature (Rom.1:20).

Added to this, we do not discuss a man with "No faith". We discuss a man who once had faith, was forgiven, was born again, and partook of the divine nature, who turns from his faith. Faith saves and is a gift of God. Faith fading does not undo the work. It awaits confirmation in the day of judgment. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says all men will be resurrected. Lack of faith does nothing. the man will be resurrected. A man cannot undo what God has done. He does not have the power.

From cover to cover the Word of God speaks to the need to continue in faith or be cut off from God's mercy and grace.

Heb 6:4-6 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, Michael37 said:

From cover to cover the Word of God speaks to the need to continue in faith or be cut off from God's mercy and grace.

Heb 6:4-6 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

Not quite. We have a grand exception - Israel.

Romans 11 established Israel as hardend and in unbelief until the fulness of the Gentiles. WE take up at 11:25;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. Two meanings for this are advanced by scholars. (I) The full number of gentiles who will be taken for the Church is complete. (II) The time that the Gentiles will rule the earth, as per Daniel 2:35, is complete. But it matters not which meaning you take because in both cases the MERCY of God is administered WITHOUT FAITH (verse 32). The reason is clear. God made Covenants with Israel and He made promises to them via the prophets. Christ's expiatory work is not limited to the Church. It was for THE WORLD (Jn.1:29, 1st Jn.2:2). God may have mercy on whom He will.

@Vine Abider advanced the theory that a wayward Christian is like a son. He will either grow out of his childishness, or he will be chastised to make the way bitter. According to 1st Corinthians 10:1-11 this will happen to Christians. They are admonished to study Israel's walk because the same will happen to them. What happened to Israel? They were unfaithful, fainted at faith and did evil works. They were chastised and removed from their inheritance. But only for a time. After 2,700 years  they will be restored as one nation under Jesus Christ. Moses is a prime example. He served well but fainted at God's holiness. He is chastised and can "see" the Kingdom of Israel, but not "ENTER" it. But the chastisement is temporal because in Matthew 17 we find him in the Kingdom.

[AdHoc]

28 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Heb 6:4-6 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

Hebrews 6 lies within a context. The Hebrews who had embraced Christ were threatening to return to Moses because of the rigors of following Christ - like losing their goods in Chapter 10. Christ is presented as the once-for-all superior sacrifice. The Jew under Moses had multiple sacrifices. he could sin every other day and in the interim, offer an animal. The author of Hebrews shows this to be "impossible" (v.6) because if they could, it would shame Jesus' death - which was once-for-all. In this way they could be informed, and move on from the teaching of "repentance  from dead works" (v.1).

[Rockson]

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Departing from the faith does not mean that they cease to be God's children with His life in them - they are just misbehaving children who need correction.

I think you're failing to appreciate one thing. Eternal Life is in Jesus and we are In Him. Jesus said IF....IF....you abide in me and my words abide in you....." Can anyone choose to walk away from him and from abiding in him? Sure they can. That's what the story of the prodigal son was all about.

Lk 15 He departed and the Father said of the Son he had entered death. After he came back he said my Son which was dead is alive again...." Even walking in LIFE is by FAITH in the Son of God. Those embracing darkness that is in a committed to it way are not his children...they're dead. They can come back again like the Prodigal  did but they are spiritually dead. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Rockson

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Rockson said:

I think you're failing to appreciate one thing. Eternal Life is in Jesus and we are In Him. Jesus said IF....IF....you abide in me and my words abide in you....." Can anyone choose to walk away from him and from abiding in him? Sure they can. That's what the story of the prodigal son was all about.

Lk 15 He departed and the Father said of the Son he had entered death. After he came back he said my Son which was dead is alive again...." Even walking in LIFE is by FAITH in the Son of God. Those embracing darkness that is in a committed to it way are not his children...they're dead. They can come back again like the Prodigal  did but they are spiritually dead. 

I think that the context and grammar show a different story. But first we should define the "death" that is mentioned here. The Bible knows three deaths.
1. Physical death - the cessation of sensory reaction.
2. The Second Death - extreme lack of a sense of well-being of a living man (Matt.10:28 - the soul and body together indicates life)
3. A POSITION incurred by sins (Eph.2:1, 5, Col.2:13) "dead IN your sins"

To rightly understand point #3 we might turn to Ephesians 2:4-10

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead IN sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together IN heavenly places IN Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk IN them.

Although verse 4 says we are dead, we are not. Verse 6 says that we are IN heavenly places, but we are not. What is meant is that because we had our origin from with-IN Christ, God reckons our POSITION to be intimately associated with Christ. Thus, the fathers statement that the prodigal son was dead, but later alive does not mean death as in point #1 above, but rather as in pint #3 above - a position from the father's point of view. This is identical with our Father's point of view when we are IN sins.

The next point of importance is often never told in this parable. The original text does not have the Chapter break. From the grammar, 16:1, which starts with "but", or "and" (KJV), joins what went before in Chapter 15. Added to this, the sentence construction and meaning of 15:13 is the same as 16:1 - "he wasted his father's goods". That is, the Prodigal of Chapter 15 is the Steward of Chapter 16 and it is one narrative. The point of the narrative, the third parable on recovery, is not to show life and death, but to show that despite grace and mercy from God the Father, THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES of backsliding. The consequences for a Christian who has spent his portion on this world in this age, MAY NOT BE A STEWARD OF GOD'S THINGS IN THE NEXT AGE. His stewardship will be removed, and this removal is so inevitable, that the Father suggests that he use worldly methods to secure supplies for the next age.

To summarize;
1. Both were sons before the incident
2. Both were sons after the incident
3. The Prodigal's death and return to life was his position in the father's view
4. The Prodigal never stopped being the father's son
5. The older brother proved to be as evil as his brother
6 The older brother retains his stewardship and inherits all. God upholds the loss of the younger brother's portion
7. Though the younger brother is celebrated as a SON, he is fired as a RULER over his father's things
8. The loss of the younger brother is marked. He can expect no supply from his father in the future

[Rockson]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the context and grammar show a different story. But first we should define the "death" that is mentioned here. The Bible knows three deaths.
1. Physical death - the cessation of sensory reaction.
2. The Second Death - extreme lack of a sense of well-being of a living man (Matt.10:28 - the soul and body together indicates life)
3. A POSITION incurred by sins (Eph.2:1, 5, Col.2:13) "dead IN your sins"

Spiritual death means not having one's spirit in any measure in fellowship with God. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

To rightly understand point #3 we might turn to Ephesians 2:4-10

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead IN sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together IN heavenly places IN Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk IN them.

Although verse 4 says we are dead, we are not.

If you look at the vs 4 you quoted above it states, we were dead, yes really spiritually dead but we were quickened meaning made alive. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 6 says that we are IN heavenly places, but we are not.

It's more accurate to say that we are. It's not talking about geography but our true genuine position in the Spirit. Seeing we are we can operate and function and bring forth our rights as Sons of God, to a great measure now in this life. Even by declaring victory over fear, and to have God's peace and to have God's love and Spirit flowing through us that's born from our position of being in Heavenly places. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 Thus, the fathers statement that the prodigal son was dead, but later alive does not mean death as in point #1 above, but rather as in pint #3 above - a position from the father's point of view. This is identical with our Father's point of view when we are IN sins.

Agreed not from what you say in #1 but in #3. But the prodigal was still dead. He was out of fellowship with the Father. He left the place of being in LIFE or we could say he stopped abiding in Christ. Eternal Life is in Christ and it doesn't stay in us if we leave it. There can be reconciliation yes but like the Father said he is alive again. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The next point of importance is often never told in this parable. The original text does not have the Chapter break. From the grammar, 16:1, which starts with "but", or "and" (KJV), joins what went before in Chapter 15.

The KJV just says, "And he said also unto his disciples..." No indication there that he isn't talking about a variety of different subjects. Quite frankly I don't see you insistence as valid that the teaching in chapter 16 is somehow connected to chapter 15.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Added to this, the sentence construction and meaning of 15:13 is the same as 16:1 - "he wasted his father's goods". That is, the Prodigal of Chapter 15 is the Steward of Chapter 16 and it is one narrative. The point of the narrative, the third parable on recovery, is not to show life and death, but to show that despite grace and mercy from God the Father, THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES of backsliding.

Well like you said what you're saying is often never told. It's often never told for the reason people don't see the connection or the need to say that they are. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The consequences for a Christian who has spent his portion on this world in this age, MAY NOT BE A STEWARD OF GOD'S THINGS IN THE NEXT AGE. His stewardship will be removed, and this removal is so inevitable, that the Father suggests that he use worldly methods to secure supplies for the next age.

So let me put this strongly. It seems you're suggesting one can be a Christian, leave abiding in Christ, live like the devil as a continual pattern and all that takes place....no rewards in the next life. Granted the Bible says some will be saved so as by fire.....or saved by the skin of their teeth as the saying goes, but that would be more of a carnal Christian like one sees in Corinthians. But for one to leave abiding and Christ and act as a apostate no I can't see salvation for them....unless they repent. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

6 The older brother retains his stewardship and inherits all. God upholds the loss of the younger brother's portion
7. Though the younger brother is celebrated as a SON, he is fired as a RULER over his father's things
8. The loss of the younger brother is marked. He can expect no supply from his father in the future

Nope I still don't think you really have any grounds for marrying to two passages. When one seeks to overthink things one I believe can dream up connections with anything. In my estimation if the Prodigal  son was going to be penalized it would have been VERY CLEAR in 16 he was really still talking about the Prodigal. To put it simply he would have told him where we can all see, "Yes you can come back but sorry you don't get anything" 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Rockson

[enoob57]

16 hours ago, Michael37 said:

From cover to cover the Word of God speaks to the need to continue in faith or be cut off from God's mercy and grace.

Heb 6:4-6 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

The problem you have is that you have made faith a work...
Titus 3:5 (KJV)

[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This above is the foundation of faith, as it is a work of God done by The Son fulfilled in s/Spirit...
All that is here has been cursed by God... for it is satan's realm ... 

God has clearly defined what He is keeping and what He is throwing away:
keeping the regenerated souls of men and women forever with Him...
throwing away all first created elements and memory of...

Now all one must understand is what kept and what is not kept to understand what salvation entails...