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Greetings in Christ, Love makes ALL the difference! We’ve perhaps heard that many times, yet I wanted to take a few moments to share this reminder with you that it truly does make ALL the difference, especially when it’s the love of God being referred to! I believe today if we are ever going to share God’s love with those around us, we first need to experience it in our own lives. As I was reading various scriptures having to do with the love God has for us, I came across the following which was actually a prayer the Apostle Paul was offering to God on behalf of the church at Ephesus while he was in prison for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 3:16-21 (NKJV) 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height– 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. While we may face persecution and challenge from this world we live in, there is something that will keep us through the storms and trials of life, and it is the unending, unfathomable, unexplainable love that God has for each and every one of us, and yes, even for this World. The primary purpose of this letter to the Ephesians was to talk about a “mystery”, and of course, this mystery was not intended to be kept that way. Paul’s purpose was to explain and reveal it by sharing about this thing called “the church” whose purpose it was to express the fullness of Christ on the Earth. One of the ways this would be done was by uniting both Jew and Gentile which of course was another aspect to this great mystery. (Eph. 3:5) It had never been done before like this; yet, God was maturing a people who would take the victory Christ won at Calvary and expand it further in reach and scope which would continue through today. So Paul’s heart’s desire was that these new believer’s would know the love of Christ, and in knowing that love, do their part in sharing it to anyone and everyone who would listen. He wanted to see that love both draw people into the family of God, and also unite the Church for more effective ministry and outreach. Our lives find completion as we love, and are loved in return. While being loved in return may seem less frequent than we had hoped for, let’s continue to reach out to this world with the love of Jesus Christ!

“Scripture is infallible; other teachers... are liable to lead into error. To place above Scripture and prefer to it, human traditions, doctrines, and ordinances, is nothing but an act of blind presumption." From John Wycliff's 'Of the Truth of Holy Scripture', 1378 A.D.” “Every great doctrine revealed in the Scripture has a balancing truth and both are necessary to a knowledge of the whole truth." p181” ― E.H. Broadbent- The Pilgrim Church “Zwingli's introduction of capital punishment for those who differed from him on points of doctrine..." p179” ― E.H. Broadbent- The Pilgrim Church

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357). Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy: God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects | Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body | | (HUGE GAP HERE!!!) | Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”) | Human leaders and governments | Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men) ==== Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew: 5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm: JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew) 5(6) kiy = 5(6) for yeled = a-male-child yulad = is-born laanuw = to-us been = a-son nitan = is-given laanuw = to-us vat-hiy = and-shall-be hamisraah = the-control/government/empire `al = upon shikmow = his-shoulders vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called shmow = his-name pele’ = a-wonder/miracle yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve eel = God gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful aViy = my-father `ad = vanishing-point/eternal sar = a-prince/winner shaalowm: = peace: Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship. I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines). Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names. ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme . I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse. To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this. God bless you Firestormx Joseph

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357). Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy: God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects | Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body | | (HUGE GAP HERE!!!) | Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”) | Human leaders and governments | Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men) ==== Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew: 5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm: JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew) 5(6) kiy = 5(6) for yeled = a-male-child yulad = is-born laanuw = to-us been = a-son nitan = is-given laanuw = to-us vat-hiy = and-shall-be hamisraah = the-control/government/empire `al = upon shikmow = his-shoulders vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called shmow = his-name pele’ = a-wonder/miracle yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve eel = God gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful aViy = my-father `ad = vanishing-point/eternal sar = a-prince/winner shaalowm: = peace: Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship. I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines). Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names.

Greenie, It seems like you are trying to get spiritual guidance from all and sundry. What you should do is sit down with the pastor and elders of your church and ask them for two things (1) someone from among them who is willing to spend time with you on a weekly basis to help you grow as a Christian and (2) at least two men from among them who would be ready, willing, and able to sit down with both you and your wife and openly and honestly discuss the spiritual conflict that exists in your marriage, in order to bring it to a resolution. The goal would be to share the Gospel with your wife and bring her to Christ. After that you both can be helped to grow through personal discipling. At the same time you should stop sharing your spiritual issues with just about everyone. Not all Christians have the spiritual maturity or the spiritual capacity to provide sound spiritual guidance, and that is why you have received a variety of views.

There not to many Kings left on the earth these present times. And some of them are Antichrist. But we should not make such a strict interpretation when we know that Jesus was declare to be the King of Kings, when he was Gloryfied in the heavens. Then we should include the kings from the bigining of the earth, not just after his Throned. He has died for all, and he has the right to rule over all. The rulers who had the authority to command their subjects go here, and go there and no one can tell them where to go, just about. But their time came and will come for the rest of us, and for all of us, when we will appear before him, for every one will appear irespectfully of their will before the King of Kings and he will RULE over them and tell them: go to Hell, ( to those who have denied him), and they have to obey him, no matter what, and to others (kings or not) who have believed in him, go to heaven, but not with the titles you had on earth, and your positions, you are going where I will put you, perhaps under the supervision of someone you have despised, and all of them have to follow. In that day every knee shall bow before the King of Kings. And he will rule over all. You have a lot to offer in the kingdom of Christ, don't be surprise if Jesus make you a teacher over many in the heavens. Thank you for your kind words my brother. And yes, I agree it would include all rulers of the earth. John's words were in the present tense to indicate it was happening right then and ongoing when he wrote those words. And yes, there are few who are called kings today. When we look at the words of John here in Revelation, we must be careful that we are not so literal as to think he meant only those who rule officially as kings, but that he is speaking of all rulers no matter what their official title is. Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,The word translated "kings" here is βασιλεύς basileús, bas-il-yooce'; probably from G939 (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (abstractly, relatively, or figuratively):—king. leader of the people, prince, commander, lord of the land, king So this does include all rulers in this world. And yes, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

There not to many Kings left on the earth these present times. And some of them are Antichrist. But we should not make such a strict interpretation when we know that Jesus was declare to be the King of Kings, when he was Gloryfied in the heavens. Then we should include the kings from the bigining of the earth, not just after his Throned. He has died for all, and he has the right to rule over all. The rulers who had the authority to command their subjects go here, and go there and no one can tell them where to go, just about. But their time came and will come for the rest of us, and for all of us, when we will appear before him, for every one will appear irespectfully of their will before the King of Kings and he will RULE over them and tell them: go to Hell, ( to those who have denied him), and they have to obey him, no matter what, and to others (kings or not) who have believed in him, go to heaven, but not with the titles you had on earth, and your positions, you are going where I will put you, perhaps under the supervision of someone you have despised, and all of them have to follow. In that day every knee shall bow before the King of Kings. And he will rule over all. You have a lot to offer in the kingdom of Christ, don't be surprise if Jesus make you a teacher over many in the heavens.

yea I can see what your saying, I hold on to hope that I will understand his answer but I can't help but to feel like I'm failing

God does not answer our prayers in our timing or the way we want him to answer.Maybe He is testing you to see how you are reacting in some situations or if you are being obedient to Him.

yea, bopeep I pray daily for my anger and I want to step out in faith but I feel like I fail at that too...I just feel like a whiner all the time about every subject in my life and I'm sick of it.

Have you ever prayed to God and asked Him to help you with your anger issues?It is all about faith.Giving God that drivers seat in your life.And then waiting to see what He will do.Give Him total control of your life.God does give us consequences for our falling out of step with Him.

@allthegoodnamesaretaken... or anyone else for that matter I feel like I'm the seed in the shallow soil or the one thats being choked out by the weeds. I really want to find the right way to have my relationship with JESUS, but I fail all the time. I'm constantly mad either at myself or everyone else and I cant seem to let go of my anger. sometime I even feel like the pharisees like I'm just putting on a show...but other people and books I read remind me that its a slow progression and JESUS is working on things within me. I repent daily and seek gods grace and look for the answers to my issues, but I'm a very impatient human and need to learn to rely on GOD and his timing and not my own. It is best said that I am my own worst enemy. sorry if that didn't give you the responds you may have been looking for but its the one I deal with day in and day out

Next time talk to your supervisor about this kind of issue. It is his responsibility to put the right person on the right job.

Well I have to say that the day after I posted this request I just got peace about it. On the day I posted this request I was crazy about it, I was completely hopeless, and and I was feeling that that it's gonna be so forever. I am not sure how to interpret this peace... That's probably an other thing. That's so true what You said. I need to change more in that than I could with my own strength.

Praying that you find Jesus as the total friend you seek. I know people who are married and are lonely. A close relationship with our Lord is the answer and asking Him to fill the emptiness in your heart and life with what He wants for you and being content to wait on Him will ease your pain of loneliness. Try smiling at a people...everyone responds to a friendly smile and that may lead to a comment that may lead to a coffee and friends with whom you may share your love of Jesus. Who knows where that may lead.....but in all things let Jesus take the lead in your life and find contentment within yourself. Welcome to Worthy ....

Besides praying for you I can assure you we have all been in lonely places as you describe. But I do ask the Lord to free you from depression and self-pity as that will just make things worse. People most often are not drawn to those who don't show a marked interest in them. That is just the way it goes. You need to pray and ask the Lord to enable you to see the bigger picture and, believe me, He will do that. You can come out of this and flourish. But relationships don't come like the wind blows. They need work and nourishing. Trust God to begin connections as you pray. And take them slow and easy. The enemy of your soul would like to trip you up by connecting you with those who will not be good examples to you..whether Christians or not. Stay involved in your groups. Don't give up.

Thanks for advise. I dont know how good friends shall I be. For me, I can talk to them after service/youth night but they dont invite me to have fun with them or to other events they're taking place. Nor do I invite them. Many I have known about year or more but still it does not happen. Not sure what to make of it. Shall it happen while we are still just friends or shall I wait til it's time to get her to be girlfriend? For now 90% of my conversations with them is "Hi, how are you" and then answering to that question with few sentences and sometimes talk about today's service. I am not sure what girls like to talk about... Other thing is that I am kinda afraid to ask them out because I dont want to look like someone who is desperately looking to date someone. I am not sure if I am right or wrong with it... I am not exactly sure when it is right time for it. Should I already be spending time with her or is it fine to invite her cafee just with intention to get to know her better? To me asking girl out looks already like asking her to date me and that's what holds me back. Other thing is that I am kinda afraid to be ashamed by her rejection. Well I have not asked anybody to date with me yet so I dont actually know how stupid/silly feeling it would be but it doesnt seem good.

  Christmas is pagan and a lot of Christians know that yet they still celebrate it    You believe that celebrating the Birth of the Lord is pagan? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?

I personally do not see Christmas as demonic, although I do not celebrate it. For me, Christmas is not commanded in scripture so would fall under the category of a tradition. Jesus did practice some Jewish traditions, but called other Jewish traditions wrong. The ones that were called bad were those who either violated the law, or were forced onto the people as requirements when they were actually only traditions. So the question on Christmas is, does it violate any law? Or is it forced on others as a requirement... for pleasing God... for salvation... or to be considered a good or solid believer? I do not see Easter as demonic, but do see it as somewhat messed up. I also do not celebrate Easter as it is a name and practice designed to eliminate anything related to Jews or Judaism in it's origin. Instead, I celebrate Passover and recognize the first fruits wave offering (resurrection). During the first Council of Nicea, there was a decree for all Christians to cease celebrating Passover (Pascha), but instead to celebrate Easter, so as not to be doing anything 'of the Jews'. The date and timing of Easter was intentionally altered so it would be less likely to coincide with Passover, to keep the two separate. However, Easter actually celebrates the same thing as the First Fruit wave offering, with a different name, different date, and different traditions. I do not see 'not celebrating' Christmas or Easter as legalism. The biggest issue I see in churches is the use of statues. Scripture say not to make a 'graven or molten image'. That is a statue. So, the manger scene is usually composed of graven or molten images. Both OT and NT speak against such things. If I walk into a Church and see any statues, I turn around and leave.

Oh, goodie, another Christmas-is-demonic thread, and it's not even Easter yet (can't wait for the Easter-eggs-and-bunnies-are-from-hell screeds we'll be seeing then). Anybody else ever notice how close their thinking is to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses? In all seriousness, legalism kills, folks. And it does it slowly.

A tree in the woods or forest is just that a living tree a creation of God he called good after he created it. It is when someone goes and chops that tree down and carves it out decorates it up and then takes it and sets it up as a literal idol to be worshipped. It's like the golden calf that had been fashioned or formed from the gold that the children of Israel came out of Egyptian bondage with. Things are just things mere material no matter what it may be. But when one takes or picks anything out of God's creation that he has created and sets it up as an idol to be worshipped is in the wrong. Because they worship the creation instead of the CREATOR who made everything there is both the visible and invisible things. That is what the people did that the prophet Jeremiah was speaking about. The people had went and cut down a tree and decked it out and erected it set it up and they worshipped the idol that they had made and fashioned out of that tree. They had turned their backs on God and turned back into idolatry. Idols are dead they are dumb for they cannot hear, see, think or even talk and cannot give life to anyone who falls down before them and worships them. There is only one true and living God and it is through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ that we have eternal life. For Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I decorate alot of things I have things hanging on my walls, over my windows on my floors in my kitchen at home but I do not worship those things for they are not God. So it is with me when it comes to a Christmas tree. I know the difference between the creation and my Creator and giver of life and I have no problem participating or celebrating Christmas. Because I know that my Christmas tree is not an idol.

  Is wine only fermented or are there non alcoholic wine ?   My opinion: the word for wine in the NT includes both grape juice and alcoholic wine. In a sense I don't think grape juice was invented. Was it Welch who invented pasteurizing it so it would not ferment?

we could just TRIM our post a little maybe even put some silver and gold on it

but what if the whole tree is dead... shouldn't they just cut the whole thing down oh! wait a miniute that's what were talking about here

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion. The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September). That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December. I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees. http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12 Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F. In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F. So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time. From the previous site for December: Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days. Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. How about August: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown. I like to get back to you on 2 issues, but you did not comment on the calling of the people by the Roman authorities to report to their cities for taxation from agricultural harvests and September with it's perfect weather conditions and fruitful bounty would be the ideal time for this undertaking and December would not because of the travel involved. Ok, let's look at the verses: Luke 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, Each person was to go to their own city. So, some had to travel very far and that could take very long. At that time, Rome was especially cautious as they did not want to stir up the people or cause issues. Especially in Judea which was volitile. Towards the end of September or early October was the Feast of Succoth(booths), which is one of three Holy days that the Mosaic law said they were to go up to Jerusalem. Rome would not require the Jewish people to travel for a census to their own cities if that interfered with the travel to Jerusalem for Succoth. For Rome, that would be a political cliff for whoever made that timing. I do not know of any historical records or scripture which put the census in September, but given the political climate, it is a pretty safe bet that Rome would not rock the boat like that. (As it was, there was a minor uprising as this was a census to evaluate taxation). The best time for a census would be a time when it did not interfere with either harvest or Judaism. The other time for travel to Jerusalem would be in the spring, for Passover and Shavuot (Pentacost). So, the middle of winter, or the middle of summer would be the better options. People, it's a real pain to scroll down through a mile of post just to read a one liner.. Lets prune our posts OK? Did I make my point ?

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion. The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September). That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December. I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees. http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12 Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F. In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F. So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time. From the previous site for December: Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days. Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. How about August: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown. I like to get back to you on 2 issues, but you did not comment on the calling of the people by the Roman authorities to report to their cities for taxation from agricultural harvests and September with it's perfect weather conditions and fruitful bounty would be the ideal time for this undertaking and December would not because of the travel involved. Ok, let's look at the verses: Luke 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, Each person was to go to their own city. So, some had to travel very far and that could take very long. At that time, Rome was especially cautious as they did not want to stir up the people or cause issues. Especially in Judea which was volitile. Towards the end of September or early October was the Feast of Succoth(booths), which is one of three Holy days that the Mosaic law said they were to go up to Jerusalem. Rome would not require the Jewish people to travel for a census to their own cities if that interfered with the travel to Jerusalem for Succoth. For Rome, that would be a political cliff for whoever made that timing. I do not know of any historical records or scripture which put the census in September, but given the political climate, it is a pretty safe bet that Rome would not rock the boat like that. (As it was, there was a minor uprising as this was a census to evaluate taxation). The best time for a census would be a time when it did not interfere with either harvest or Judaism. The other time for travel to Jerusalem would be in the spring, for Passover and Shavuot (Pentacost). So, the middle of winter, or the middle of summer would be the better options.

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion. The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September). That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December. I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees. http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12 Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F. In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F. So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time. From the previous site for December: Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days. Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. How about August: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown. I like to get back to you on 2 issues, but you did not comment on the calling of the people by the Roman authorities to report to their cities for taxation from agricultural harvests and September with it's perfect weather conditions and fruitful bounty would be the ideal time for this undertaking and December would not because of the travel involved.

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion. The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September). That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December. I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees. http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12 Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F. In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F. So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time. From the previous site for December: Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days. Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. How about August: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown.

Fruitfull, the Bible clearly states that if we break one law we have broken them ALL. If we keep one law we have to keep them ALL. let's look at some other laws. the law of the Sabbath, original stated that no one was to leave their place on the Sabbath, their place being interpreted as their Home. this was then decided that place meant their city and not their home, so that people could go to the temple on the Sabbath, so the priest added a distance( 2000 cubits) that could be traveled on the Sabbath, Then one Priest said well if they can travel 2000 cubits to go to the temple then they may need another 2000 cubits to make it back home. ( 4000 cubits total) then on toward the new testament and cities growing larger. they added another 4000 cubits to make a Sabbath days journey 8000 cubits. now 6000 cubits is a little over a mile, so a Sabbath days journey would be over 1 and a 1/3 of a mile .now that was the last time the law was changed . so if you travel over that distance on the Sabbath to go to your temple/church, then you should not cast stones at people with Christmas trees, for you to have broken the law. now one more, assuming the church you attends preaches against Christmas trees, does the Pastor or leader of said church, shave the beard or head? for that too would defile a priest before God so I can see a well shaven preacher at your church preaching not to put up a Christmas tree, being well shaven or clean shaven would be a sin for a priest/ leader of a flock. in the eyes of God. note also here a woman couldn't be the leader unless they had a beard that is!!!! Lev 21:4-5 4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself. 5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh. KJV the law was not given as bondage but to teach( as a schoolmaster) that All stand in the need of the mercy and Grace of God!

Hi there; you do have a list of questions. You say, "I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ," Yes, there is one Body of Christ. As to going to Hell Fire, the only reason why men go there is that they are sinners. The wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is the 2nd death. You ask about Christmas celebrations. There is nothing advocating that in the Bible -- nor forbidding it. No scripture said that Mary of Bethany should put nard on the Lord's head. Judas objected. I find no prohibition in the Bible against drinking a little wine for the stomach's sake & the oft infirmity; indeed Paul gave Timothy that order. Drunkenness is another matter. The point is that Christianity is about loving God & neighbor, rather than concentrating on minor points.

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ. but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close. Clement picked November 18. If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following: An analysis of scripture shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date, First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8 Shepherds would not be in the fields during December. December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even) It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night. Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4. It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly. The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist. Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born. It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5 after learning John's birth would be sometime in late March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth. Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs. what do you think about them apples?

Hi Jerry, I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods. If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations. Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions. A lot of that is made up history revisionism. Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god. I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion. Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on. Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.- even the prophets warned the jews to avoid the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13, circa 500-600 BC that is complete nonsense. Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon. You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get. There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs. Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ. take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention. Christmas contradicts biblical facts. Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible. Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days. The choices you make will affect your destiny. Are you really making the celebration of Christmas and Easter a salvation issue? Do you really believe those who celebrate Dec. 25th as Jesus birthday are risking their salvation? Christmas is on Dec 25th. Saturnalia began on Dec. 17th. The winter solstice is on Dec. 21st. None of these dates match. A pagan practice involves the worship of pagan gods. Jesus is not a pagan god. As far as the OT Holy days, those were given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Not Gentiles. And not the Church. Neither Christmas nor Easter are pagan. And we are under the New Covenant, not the Mosaic covenant. You read too much really bad information which is usually written with an agenda to justify bad theology. I would suggest reading some genuine Messianic Judaism sites to get the real information. The UMJC has many papers written on these topics. So much to say and so little time. i;m not trying to make an issue here-that's your department. If we have prolific proof available as we do with the origins of christmas including even the catholic encyclopedias that xmas is ripe in pagan philosophy and we ignore it so as not to upset our comfortable way of celebrating than we could be at risk of sinning willfully. Christ was not born in the winter on or near December 25-there's Biblical proof. When it comes to the children of Israel we find that they were made up of 12 tribes-the tribe of Judah (Jews) being only one of them. The Israelites consisted of gentiles as well during the exodus. When God made His covenant with the children of Israel and their descendants it included all 12 tribes. Is it possible that some of us are part of the latter day Israelites? Paul brought the church and its teachings and observances of God's feast days to the gentiles. There is no mention of christmas celebrations in the New Testament. You won't even find a religious service or feast day held to commerorate Jesus birth in the NT. December 25th has a very dark and checkered past. Saturnalia began on the 17th but ran for 7 days to the 24 - our christmas eve, Dec 25 was the original celebrated winter solstice. It was changed later in history to the 21st. businesses were closed, parties were held, gifts exchanged-sound familiar? It is a fact that Dec 25 was the birthday for many ancient sun gods part of the winter solstice celebrations. During the time of the Apostles and the NT church Romans celebrated the feast of the saturnalia while the church kept the " feasts of the Lord " The Christian history books over the centuries showed an animosity to xmas because of their relationship to sun worshiping. Xmas was banned at one time in England and in New England. But another popular religious holiday, Easter has an even more deceptive past. Check out its origins. We all have the tools in our world of technology. A lot of bad information in your post. Actually too much of it is off topic for this thread so I will not respond so as not to disrupt. But, I will say to you that based on what you wrote, I would strongly suggest looking into some Messianic Judaism teachers, (not those connected to Two House or One law).

No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? The Hebrew word ets is used which means tree. Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods. Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well. Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition. I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that? There is no warning from God that Christmas is a pagan practice. Some like to use Jeremiah 10, but it does not apply. Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. The work of the workman, is speaking about an artist, who is carving the tree. It is forbidding the Asherah pole. An Asherah pole is a tree, stripped of branches and the trunk is carved into the form of Astarte. Nothing can be clearer that a Christmas tree is not stripped of branches and carved into a figurine. A Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with Asherah poles. And if the use of a tree for decoration is forbidden, the the customary Succah, (booth), which is often decorated with various fruit, and tree branches would be in question also. Yes, ets means tree, it is not forbidden to cut down a tree. It is even not forbidden to strip branches from a tree. It is not forbidden to decorate a tree. It is forbidden to carve a tree into a figurine of a pagan god. Actually, Dec 25th is not necessarily the 'birthday of Mithra', as that is historically disputed. However, there was a very wide variety of pagan religions (those who worshipped false gods). Due to the large number of pagan beliefs, and some research into the holidays they celebrated, just about every single day of the calendar is a pagan holiday of some religion dedicated to a false god. Scripture does not forbid celebrating the real God on the same day that some pagan is celebrating their false god. As believers in Jesus, we are to celebrate and worship all days of the year, and agreed upon special days of gathering for worship, or worship in the home with family, are absolutely biblical. There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Dec 25th, but forbidding worship on Dec 25th because it coincides with an old pagan holiday is unbiblical.

No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? it doesn't say anything about the Christmas tree. It is talking about people who cut down trees and make idols out of them. They shape the idol into their god and then overlay it with gold and silver. You are trying to read "Christmas tree" into that passage. The pagans in that part of the world didn't worship trees. They worshipped idols they carved from those trees. It is also the word for wood. According to a lot of junk historians and conspiracy theorists. They also say that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus are just rehashing the stories of Mithra and Horus and other gods as well. They are wrong about that, too. Baloney. No basis in reality. More baseless garbage that as no root in real history or real mythology. You'll just believe anything, won't you. I've got some ocean property in Kansas I'll sell you dirt cheap. It came from post reformation Europe, many historians agree that it started in Europe. Encyclopedias -like Britannica and others use accredited historians and many contributors that are professors of modern and ancient history at renowned universities. Your sarcasm seems to be the only defense you are left with. What documented historical sources are you relying on? Because there are a lot of resources that beg to differ with your objections to the truth. If you don't believe antiquities at least believe God. If you are a Christian and follow the One who said " I am the light of the world " why would you believe the perpetuation of strange customs not from the Bible but from the dark, dim mists of mythology which is primarily driven by satan?

I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part. that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today. How about when I set up a plastic tree and decorate it in November? Even tho it sounds like you are mocking God's warnings it would only apply when you are doing the event surrounding the time frame around a recognized pagan holiday

Hi Jerry, I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods. If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations. Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions. A lot of that is made up history revisionism. Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god. I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion. Some of the early Christian writers tell us how the early pagans worshiped and some of those practices are used by Christians today. Celebrating New Years, giving of gifts at the mid winter festivals, etc. Which early Christian writers? Tertullian comes to mind but I could look for others. I read quite a bit of Tertullian. Can you direct me to the writings you refer to?

Fruitfull77, why are you ignoring my simple questions? You continue to argue against holidays, yet you refuse to tell us your stance on them. That is what a discussion is about, back and forth communication.

I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part. that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today.

No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? The Hebrew word ets is used which means tree. Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods. Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well. Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition. I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that?

having a tree with silver and gold and worshipping a tree with silver and gold is a big difference I hope some learn that difference, for by the same condemnation you judge so will you be judged by! as well as there is a bigger difference as to being under the law and being under Grace, I to hope that some can learn the difference before it is eternally too late. Gal 5:1-4 5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. KJV

Shameless bump ... I would like an answer.

Fruitful, what Christian denominations or groups adhere to the practices you promote?

No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it. although they have good intentions as we do today to honor God it is the type of application of worship he denounces. Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made? The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

Blessings enoob..... Wonderful,awesome,incredible,magnificent....Worthy is the Lamb of God! Oh ,the Precious Blood of our Savior,Praise & Thank You Jesus! With love-in Christ,Kwik

Isn't it wonderful to be in this light as Jesus is in... rejoicing in the freedom of the cleaness of HisLife while abandoning our own to the renewing into the desires and motives that are born out of Him Love, Steven

Blessings Everyone... Firstly,I would like to say "thank you" to enoob for posting God's Word on this matter,that should be the end of any question as this is final Authority.If any Christian wants to partake in the Jewish celebrations & Praise the Lord that is wonderful. It was never a question in my mind for the simple fact that I am not Jewish,nor can I ever be.....although I am grafted in as a child of God ,I am not from the root as it is Written.Take for example the Passover celebration,this is a time to give thanks to the Lord for passing over all the homes o-f the Jews with the Lambs Blood (sparing their 1st born)& rescuing the Jews from their bondage in Egypt,being freed from captivity ....the Exodus......this time was to always be remembered,Gods leading ,guiding,protecting & providing for His chosen people & passed down to each generation so they never forget Gods love for them......................this is not my celebration,my ancestors were not from Israel.These Holy Days were given to the Jews..... I was raised to celebrate the birth of Christ & His resurrection,these are the traditions of my ancestors(traditions of men,yes)but what is wrong with setting a specific day ,apart from the rest,to celebrate the arrival of the King of Kings upon the earth or the day my Salvation was made possible in His resurrection?Everyday is the Lords Day & everyday He is more than Worthy of all Praise,Honor ,Glory & our thanksgiving ...... With love-in Christ,Kwik

These verses say we aren't to despise or judge each other on account of these things, for God's able to make us all stand, regardless. This rules out the possibility that it's a salvation issue.

Yes that was my point in the Liberty aspect...

For those born in Christ this should be a relief Scripture to this whole waste of time... Rom 14:1-22 14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. KJV It is the perfect Law of Liberty... Love, Steven

You have to go deeper than a concordance to find the origins of birthdays and easter, and the likes of christmas. You have to to look into ancient history, encyclopedias, bible hand books, and the Babylonian practices. we can easily lose sight of the special meanings of God's holy days when we vary or alter the dates and times God instituted for us to observe. these days were meant.to be kept forever and ever, they were not temporary or part of Moses law. God said in Deut 12;32-do not add to what I command you to observe. Your duty is to " prove all things "-the problem with many of those man made holidays is they correspond with many pagan practices. We are to follow God's examples.not our personal reasoning. Christmas and easter were not celebrated in the bible although the OT refers to pagan customs that were adopted to those traditions we now keep with christ as the central figure. Jesus, and the apostles kept God's feast day years after the birth of the NTChurch-it wasn;t until hundreds of years later false teaches started to amalgamate local customs with God's festivals until they were nothing like the original Holy days God ordained. what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays? Other than eternal life. why the adversity to it all?