The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Salty]

 

 

Montana Marv, whats the distinction between fine linen and white robes? Rev. 19: 14 says ... clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Robes are an outer garment or long jacket,  Fine linen is more of body covering.  Linen is based on number of threads, the higher the thread count, the better the quality of linen.

 

The NT saints are given fine linen.  All others seem to get white robes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv,

Is it possible this passage refers to ANGELS and not NT saints as you alluded to above?

14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

 

Look in Ezekiel 44 about the Zadok (the Just), I think that's where that linen clothing was described for those who reign with Christ Jesus. It includes caps too.

[Salty]

 

I have a challenge for those who believe in the Rapture I would like them to take in order to convince me of the Rapture

 

I challenge or dare anybody who believes in the rapture to actually tell me the weaknesses or flaws in their Rapture theory.

 

By now your thinking, yeh right, who would do that? Well firstly NO one has the perfect argument. In fact I'll be the first to admit, none of my theories are perfect, they all have weaknesses. In fact I'll go a step further, I don't know everything about the bible, in fact I'll never know everything about the bible, reality is I know less than what I think I know and I love it.

 

YOur not going to convince me of the Rapture by pretending that you can out argue me against the theory... 13 pages so far  and neither party has convinced the other party. When the reality of the situation is both parties failed in proper dialog.

 

In order to "sell me" your rapture theory tell me the truth...I want to hear from someone who believes in the rapture to tell me what the weaknesses are in the theory, so we can actually have a dialog and you would be in a better position to actually convince me and others of the Rapture theory. 

 

We should be vangaurds of truth, not vangaurds of our ego's, Are we debating purely to out argue the other person, or are we debating to convince the other person of our theory? 

 

if the Rapture theory is truth then you should have no problem in telling the truth, what is the weakness's or flaws in your Rapture theory?

 

 

Not sure what you're going on about, because if you're simply keying on the word 'rapture' itself, that word is not written anywhere in God's Word. The use of the word 'rapture' came from the Latin translation of the Greek NT of the Greek word 'harpazo' ("caught up" in KJV).

 

 

So are you asking to be convinced of one's views of that 'harpazo' ("caught up") event in Scripture, or what?

 

 

That harpazo event is not that difficult to understand in conjunction with God's Word. It was given in conjunction with the time of Christ's second coming and gathering of His saints and the resurrection. So it is linked with the "last trump" resurrection event Apostle Paul explained in 1 Cor.15, where he also exaplained about the change to the "spiritual body" type on that day for those still alive on earth. He was also pulling from the Isaiah 25 Scripture concerning that event. In 1 Thess.5 Paul gave more information on the timing when it will occur, and further linked the events of the "day of the Lord" with it, so that includes a lot more Scripture information in many other Bible Books, both OT and NT.

 

Whew! So in essence, to not believe the harpazo event... is actually to not accept quite a bit of God's Holy Writ.

[ENOCH2010]

Spock my interpretation of the 24 elders is, they have already been picked. I think they are the 11 disciples + Paul + 12 old testament saints. The 24 elders aren't going to be picked out of the pre-trib believers modern church.

[gdemoss]

The second advent will be much different than the first. He isn't coming to rapture but rupture. A lot of bubbles will be bursting in that day. The cloak for sin removed permanantly.

[Salty]

"Christ's Revelation follows that format like the Books of the OT prophets."

 

This is very  WRONG. In other words, a MYTH.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Not a myth at al, but a Biblical fact. That's why without consulting many of the events in the OT quite a bit of Revelation wouldn't even make sense.

 

Imagine if you didn't have Genesis about the tree of life in God's Garden and then only first read of it in Revelation? Same thing with many metaphors and symbols given in Revelation that point directly back to the OT prophets. The locusts of Rev.9 is just one of them. How many of those subjects don't appear anywhere in the Four Gospels nor the NT Epistles? quite a lot. So much for your "myth" affirmation without Scripture backup.

[Spock]

The second advent will be much different than the first. He isn't coming to rapture but rupture. A lot of bubbles will be bursting in that day. The cloak for sin removed permanantly.

I love this quote. Mind if I steal it?

First Rapture, then rupture.....love it

[Spock]

Spock my interpretation of the 24 elders is, they have already been picked. I think they are the 11 disciples + Paul + 12 old testament saints. The 24 elders aren't going to be picked out of the pre-trib believers modern church.

Thanks. Without me putting a lot of prior thought into this, your interpretation does make a lot of sense.

The 12 apostles plus the heads 12 tribes of Judah = 24

[ARGOSY]

 

Hey Salty,

You are not UNBIASED (like me), so quit trying to influence the "unbiased with no agenda" judge. Lol

 

 

 

I have no agenda except God's agenda per His Word. So if by that you mean I am biased, darn right I am biased with The LORD and no one else, which means not men's traditions from their religious organizations. If folks want to debate a Bible issue then they need to provide Biblical support and not just affirmations as if something were true without any Scripture backup.

 

 

Spock is a cool guy, but he is definitely biased towards the traditional dispensational view. Often when confronted with good scriptural points his response will favour the traditional view without much scripture to back it up.

 

As for repeated earthquakes that remove every mountain, or make them all disappear, and repeated comings of Christ, I just fail to see how anyone with any common sense can believe such a thing. Yes there will many great earthquakes but only that completely devastating one.

[Salty]

Salty

 

After the Second Coming Christ is ruling on Earth not in Heaven.

 

So as in Rev 4 and 5, this scene is up in Heaven (the Fathers House)  God the Father is sitting in the center of the Throne in Heaven. This I even know.  There are only two options, Post Millennial view in Heaven, or a Pre Second Coming view.  No other choices.

 

We see 24 Elders who are from every tribe, language, people and nation, (the same as those in the Church, who are also to be priests) and they will reign on earth.  Oops, that leaves out the Post Mill view.   So this scene Must be pre - Second Coming, no other option.  Yet we see the Lamb opening the scroll which are the events which take place during the Great Tribulation.  (the time of Great Distress of Matt 24:21) or before.  So this leaves a time before the mid trib post; No other option given the facts as described in Rev 4 and 5.  The crown of glory has already been given to these 24 Elders, and they cast them back to Jesus.  The Church also receives their crown of glory when the 24 Elders do, for they are all part of the Body of Christ/Church/Bride of Christ.

 

John 14 - I am going to my Fathers House to prepare a place for you (a heavenly scene).  And a Second Coming gathering those in the Fathers House (from one end of heaven to the other).

 

We see the 24 Elders before the opeing of the Scroll and throughout the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments.  Sorry but the Church is in Heaven at this time (the Fathers House).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Where our Lord Jesus will rule when He comes will indeed be here on earth. But many are confused about the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word (earthly vs. heavenly). On the day of Christ's coming the Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed... upon this earth.

 

Look at the example of God's River and the tree of life in Ezekiel 47 and Rev.22, and then compare it with God's Garden of Eden in Genesis 2. Then note especially how God's River in Eden flowed out of His Garden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, of which two of those four rivers still exist today in Iraq (the Euphrates and Tigris).

 

In the Ezek.47 example, Ezekiel is being given a vision like John was, but is shown that River and tree of life at a specific location upon the earth in the Middle East. In the Rev.22 example no geographic association is given with it, so some men have created various traditions about it, placing it up in the clouds off the earth even, just because of how Rev.22 reads. Similar kind of thing in Gen.2 happens with God's River flowing out of Eden to those four other rivers. We aren't shown Eden and God's River in a specific location in Gen.2, but we know by its example it was upon the earth feeding those four rivers of which two still exist on earth today.

 

By that kind of Bible study don't you think our Heavenly Father means for us to fill in the gaps with those associations He gave? When all of it is put together in our mind we have more of a clue where God's Garden of Eden most likely was upon this earth, and also where His River and tree of life of Rev.22 will be after Christ's return. But leave out the Ezek.47 and Gen.2 examples and what do you have? Men's traditions with God's River of the waters of life and the tree of life up in the clouds off the earth somewhere, or some other kind of similar tradition.

 

After the sin in Eden, we are shown at the end of Gen.3 how God setup cherubim to guard the way to the tree of life, with Adam and Eve eventually being moved out of His Garden of Eden. Cherubim are Heavenly creatures God created to guard His Throne. That is when our Heavenly Father separated His Eden away from this earth, to another dimension, the dimension of the Heavenly. Wherever He is, that is where His Garden of Eden is.

 

My point? In that time of Gen.2 with Eden and His River in connection with the four rivers on earth being fed, that shows His Eden was once upon this earth. In Rev.21-22 He returns to this earth in final and dwells among us, with us, along with His River and the tree of life. That shows His Garden of Eden back... upon this earth in that future time.

 

So how... can He as SPIRIT live upon this earth manifesting those things of His Heavenly Abode on earth? It represents a joining of the two dimensions in the same time and space, upon this earth. Some might see it as a layer (Heavenly) folded on top of a layer (earthly), and I see no problem with that view. But the real question for that time is, where will the Heavenly be? Right here, upon this earth. And that's to begin with our Lord Jesus's second coming and the change at the twinkling of an eye on the day of the Lord.

 

Thus those crowns are for that time after... Christ Jesus returns with His future reign upon this earth, because that's when those events of His River and the tree of life are to manifest upon the earth too, per Ezek.47 and Rev.22. That is when His saints will reign with Him, upon the earth, with the Heavenly revealed here on earth also.

[Montana Marv]

 

 

Montana Marv, whats the distinction between fine linen and white robes? Rev. 19: 14 says ... clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Robes are an outer garment or long jacket,  Fine linen is more of body covering.  Linen is based on number of threads, the higher the thread count, the better the quality of linen.

 

The NT saints are given fine linen.  All others seem to get white robes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv,

Is it possible this passage refers to ANGELS and not NT saints as you alluded to above?

14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

Spock

 

I don't believe they are angels.  If one looks at Rev 5:11 - Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand.  They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

 

There seems to be an order.  The Throne of God, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, then all the angels.  These 24 elders are acting as priests.  Rev 5:8  -  Each one (along with the four living creatures) were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  1 Peter 2:9 10 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into this wonderful light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God.

 

Israel does not receive it's allotted inheritance until the 70th Week is finished as the Lord returns to the Mt of Olives.  I do not believe that angels receive crowns of glory .  So that only leaves one (the Body of Christ - the Bride - the cream of the crop).  Rev 1:6 and has made us a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father.  These 24 elders toss their crowns at the feel of Jesus.  Remember the song - Crown Him with many Crowns.  He gives us crowns of glory/Rewards, and we give them back to Him.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv