Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[Spock]

On 9/30/2015 at 1:10 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You know how Jesus was asked a question from time to time, and then said He would answer, if they answered a question first? Well, I am going to do a similar thing here. Can you explain why the word “church” is not mentioned in the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? 

Can you think of any other word, that is used of the church? How about the word "The Saints? Is the passage below, not a tribulation passage?

 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. 7And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

      8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

So, there is this beast, who was (alive) was not (dead) and is about to come out of the pit. Who would that be? What does he do? He wreaks havoc on those who dwell on the Earth and whose names are not written in the book of life. Question: Whose names are written in the book? Would that be Christians? So, perhaps the church is not there, but, some people whose names are written in the book are spared. So, who are the people who are sealed from harm?

What about this:

 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
      “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

      13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice the verse 14 there - note that is does not say that they came out BEFORE the tribulation, but came out of the tribulation.

You cannot come out of something, that you were never in!

Or in Rev 20:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

There you have people who were beheaded for being Christians, and clearly they were in the tribulation, no?

Do we really need to have the word "church"? Is not the church comprised of all who are called out from the world to be believers in the savior? Find a verse (since you are focused on things that do not appear) that says the believers in Jesus are the church, unless they are in the tribulation. The church, is believers in Jesus, no matter when and where they are, they are the called out ones, the ecclesia, the church.

You seem to think that there is some sort of powerful logic to the idea that the word church is absent in tribulation passages. That is known as an argument from silence, and arguments from silence are considered as logical fallacies, and you have a problem with post-tribbers, because we refuse to commit logical fallacies?

Let's pretend though, that this form of logic is valid, let's apply it to other verses.

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and

  1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 

Those seem like possible rapture passages to me. However, the word "church" is not mentioned. Therefore, by your logic, the church will not be in the rapture.

Can you see why this line of reasoning is faulty?

The word “church” is also missing in Rev 19 and 20. So, I guess, according to your logic, the church not be there to rejoice in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Additionally, the bride of Christ is found in Rev 19:7 but the word “church” is not mentioned. So, I guess then that they cannot be the church?

A lawyer/apologist, once pointed out to me, that a lot of bad evidence, is not the equal of good evidence. That describes the pre-trib position. It is a lot of bad evidence, arguments from silence, un-merited assumptions and inferences, added ideas not from the Bible.

I have laid out, numerous evidences from scripture, for my beliefs in this area, and not one has been refuted by anyone on this forum. I have pointed out many things that pre-tribbers believe, that have never been stated in the scriptures, and no one has refuted my allegations there either. Every thing I have stated, has evidence for it, harmonizes with scripture, and has no contradictions, and not really any difficulties.

I have never used the "well, it doesn't say that it is not" or "the word X does not appear" arguments. The reason for that, is that I do not need to resort to desperate measures to defend the position that has been demonstrably in church thought for 1900 years. Franky, I distrust modern interpretations over older understandings.

I think Bopeep, if you are honest with yourself, you will note that you raise questions, and say things like "the problem I have is", Then, when someone answers your objections, you then go on to say "yes, but" and you find some other objection. You, in my opinion, do not have an issue with post-tribbers, you have a problem accepting that we might just be correct, and you do not want us to be correct. I think, that hinders you from accepting what the Bible says, so you cling to those 13 ideas that the Bible never says. Is that not a fair observation?

No amount of evidence or refutation, can be enough to satisfy your objections, your desire for the way you want things to be, over powers you objectivity.

Hopefully, some of the things in our conversation, are benefiting others and go toward the questions of the O.P.

You also said: "Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally."

That is a broad statement about post-tribbers. This post-tribber (me) thinks, just to be clear, that there will be believers and unbelievers in the tribulation. Both believers, and unbelievers, can be victims of the efforts of the anti-Christ and his minions, with believers especially, being the subject of his persecutions. Believers are not immune, and just as throughout history and to the present day, persecution, even to death, is the lot of the faithful. Perhaps even, the more faithful one is, the more persecuted one will be. On the other hand, believers will not be subject to God's wrath, He is, after all, not mad at believers, He forgave believers. and rewards those who die on His behalf. 

"12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Let it never be said, that I am a dispenser of ear tickling doctrine.

Wow O........you da man on this post. 

I don't know if you convinced peep ( in fact I'm sure you didn't)  in the error of her thinking, but you probably convinced anyone else who was wondering about this.  I know the pre TRIB camp really emphasized this point from Hal Lindsey on, but like you just have shown, it is refutable.  Nice work. 

Ok, what is next....

[Spock]

8 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

what is important:

It was never intended nor planned to make sense logically to the world, to most of the chruches, nor to the mind of man;

and it is not not able to be grasped nor comprehended by man that way. ... ... To understand requires the same as 

how Yahshua told Peter how he knew He was the Messiah, 

and how Yochanan the immerser also had said "no man may receive anything unless it is freely and graciously revealed  and granted to him by and from the FATHER IN HEAVEN......

 

Jeff,

i love you bro, but if I can be candid with you on this post, you made no sense here to me. But you do sound profound, so that is good.....I think. 

 

Spock running

[rollinTHUNDER]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2015 at 3:31 AM, firestormx said:

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

 

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

 

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

Firestormx

 

 

Hi firestormx,

I believe we discussed this many moons ago in a PM late one night (early morning).

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

I see these as two different comings.  The reason there are two comings given in Christ' answer is because of the way the question was asked.  His disciples asked Him a three part question: 

.................Tell us, (1)when will these things be, (2)and what will be the sign of your coming (3)and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3)  

Christ went on to answer the last two.  Most people ignore chapter 25, assuming chapter 24 is the physical second coming, but it is not.  It's the gathering of His elect (rapture for those who are ready = faithful servants.) 

Chapter 25 is His second coming, when He comes to judge the nations, separating the sheep from the goats or those who survive the tribulation.  But before He can judge the nations, scripture says that He must first judge the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18).  And this is what we see in chapter 24:29-31 thru 25:30.

Many assume that the entire church will be ready and go in the rapture, but I believe that is nothing more than wishful thinking.  There are three types of believer (hot, lukewarm & cold).  Many will fall away before the Lord comes in the clouds, as the love of many will grow cold (Matt 24:12).  This will leave two types of believer when He comes, those who are on fire for the Lord, and also the lukewarm.  Unfortunately, the lukewarm will be vomited out of the Lords mouth, and I believe these will be martyred in the end.  But those on fire, these are His faithful servants and they will be ready, while the lukewarm will be the unfaithful servants who are caught unaware of the Lords coming. 

So there we see the (hot - lukewarm & cold), but since the cold fall away before He comes, His parables mostly relate to the hot & lukewarm, until the end of chapter 25.

 

 

 

Cheers

[Pamelasv]

I never see anything that mentions pretribulation rapture in the scriptures. And nobody has ever been able to point anything out any scriptures that mention it. It makes me wonder about wishful thinking.  

[Ezra]

28 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Many assume that the entire church will be ready and go in the rapture, but I believe that is nothing more than wishful thinking.  There are three types of believer. 

The Resurrection/Rapture is most clearly described in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, and if God had planned for only those who are supposedly "worthy" to be caught up together with Christ, then we would certainly have some indication of that in these passages, as well as 1 John 3, John chapter 14, and others. But what we find is that all those who are "sons of God" or children of God are transformed, resurrected, and perfected, and taken up to be with Christ.  Please note (1 John 3:1-3): 

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So Christ first returns FOR ALL HIS SAINTS and then He comes to earth WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.  We should always bear in mind that it is always Christ's worthiness and righteousness which God sees.  

As to the "lukewarm" represented by the church at Laodicea, a careful reading of that passage shows that these are Christians in name only (without the New Birth and without the indwelling Holy Spirit). How do we know this?  Because the Lord says that they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. Anyone with the robe of the righteousness of Christ is not naked, and anyone with the indwelling Holy Spirit is not blind.

[Spock]

Ezra,

the message to the 7 churches in Revelation resonate in me. It really doesn't seem to me after reading those messages that all Christians are equal or to be treated equally.  To just dismiss Laodicea as all unbelievers is too convenient and easy to do. I don't like easy explanations. They make me think people are just trying to fit the word to meet their agenda. 

In addition, the parable about the 5 ready virgins vs the virgins who are not are pretty interesting. I know it's a parable, but I don't think you should dismiss the powerful implication of the exact words being spoken. 

Anyhow, there is scriptural evidence to possibly show the rapture is not for all believers. Maybe you can entertain that possibility as you reread the scriptures. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Wow O........you da man on this post. 

I don't know if you convinced peep ( in fact I'm sure you didn't)  in the error of her thinking, but you probably convinced anyone else who was wondering about this.  I know the pre TRIB camp really emphasized this point from Hal Lindsey on, but like you just have shown, it is refutable.  Nice work. 

Ok, what is next....

LOL spock!

There are those who say that no one ever changes their mind on this topic. I know that is not true, as I was once a premie myself. Many here have gone from closemindedness of one view, to open-mindedness, to conviction of another view. IA few here have seemed pretty convinced and changed. Some, have messaged me, and let me know that they  have turned the corner, but are not willing to state so in an open forum. 

Time was, that if you admitted to being a postie here, you got no respect, I was even called a heretic for that stance, by an admin  no less. Times have changed. It seems that these protracted discussions, have had an effect on how some think on the topic, and how they view others who hold differing opinions.

In my case, I feel total freedom to express my view, largely because pre-tribbers have given me more confidence in my view, for which I am actually thankful to them, although I still hold, that in spite of my convictions, considerable study, and confidence, I can still be wrong. I want to stress that, if someone thinks anything I (or anyone else) presents, seems well reasoned and documented, to please avoid taking our word for anything. All of us are fallible, so people need to search the scriptures for themselves, not forming conclusions on a few verses, not  reading things into the scriptures, that are not there, instead limiting themselves to the texts, and not the comments of those of us who debate various views. The Bible (only) is the authority.

So, with that said, there are hundreds of verses that touch on this topic, if one has read a few of them, it might not be the right time to decide, hold off forming an opinion until you have really studied this out.

The topic is fascinating, at least I think it is. It can be a puzzle, but puzzles can be fun. One important thing that needs to be kept in mind, is that this is not a contest. It is not a struggle of egos, trying to prove themselves right, and others wrong. It is a search for information, we are all disciples (students, learners) and if we keep that in mind, and are willing to listen, and not just hear) we will learn from each other, and others reading these forums, will learn along with us.

We are brothers and sisters of one family, we are not enemies, though it might at times seem that way in passionate debate.

Thank youSpock, for your comment, it is encouraging.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

I like your thinking here storm. You definitely are using the gray cells in your brain my brother. It doesn't make sense to think all the nations got separated on at Matt 24:29-31 and then we did it again in Matt 25 at the sheep and goats separation. 

I know some people think Matt 24-25 is all about Jews but I ain't buying that line of thought. Matthew is not just a Jewish book. In fact, the church is mentioned a few times by Jesus. 

Someone is being gathered in Matt:24 29-31.  My money is on the raptured saints. I think this parallels Rev 6-7.

Hi Spock,

 

Now have you ever considered that the 4 gospels each show one aspect of our Lord`s ministry while on earth. And that the book of Revelation (the unveiling of Christ as He is known in the heavenly realms), & the 4 visions carry through to completion one aspect in particular of the fourfold ministry of Christ.

Matthew – Christ`s Kinship. He is the son of Abraham, & the son of David. (relatively)

Mark – Christ`s Heirship. He is the Son of God with legal authority. (legally)

Luke – Christ`s Mediatorship. He is the Son of Man touched with the feelings of our infirmities. (morally)

John – Christ`s Deity. He is the Son of God, Deity & Maker. He is omnipotent in both power & purpose. (judicially)

 

Christ is the centre of God`s word. Yet people do not realise this & place themselves at the centre of God`s word & try & make it fit towards themselves. Even when reading the word `church` in scripture – what do people think, “Oh that is us.” Let`s have a look.

 

Church – Gk. word `Ekklesia,` meaning `that which is called out.` (Jewish or Christian. Strong`s)

`This is that Moses.....who was in the `Ekklesia,` (called out ones, church) in the wilderness..` (Acts 7: 37 & 38)

That obviously is Israel, called out ones, Ekklesia, (from the nations), while the Body of Christ is also a `called out` Ekklesia group (from Israel & the nations).

 

Two called out ones. Two chosen, elect ones. (Two with the title `church.`)

 

`And so all Israel will be saved....concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable.` (Rom. 11: 26 - 29)

So we need to be careful to see which `called out ones,` ` elect`(Ekklesia, church – Israel or the Body of Christ) that God is talking about.

 

Now you said that Jesus mentioned the word `church` in Matthew a few times. This is true. So let`s have a look.

Matt. 16: 18 `Upon this rock (of belief in Christ) I will build my Ekklesia, (called out ones, church).

Clearly that is to do with the Body of Christ. However the Lord does not explain what that means. The revelation is not given until many years later when the Holy Spirit gives it to Paul, as we well know. All that the disciples know at that time is that Jesus will build His called out ones. As they are `called out ones.` They believe it is those Jews who believe in Jesus. This belief carries over into Peter`s thinking as he found it hard to understand what Paul was saying about the Body of Christ. The 12 disciples were never given that revelation.

 

 

Matt. 18: 17 `And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the Ekklesia, the called out ones, the church,...`

The Body of Christ was not even `born` yet. It was not known & therefore was not in operation for people to go to the Body of Christ. This is referring to the Jewish assembly, the Ekklesia, the church (Israel).

 

As I said we as self centred people read God`s word as all about us, whereas it is for us to read, but it is NOT all about us. Once that is clear then the `puzzle` of the Bible becomes a clear picture of our precious Lord, His ministries, His character, His purposes.

 

 

Hope that helps. Marilyn.

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi firestormx,

Interesting post you have here. And might I say very good questioning. Now we need to understand the word `elect.`

`elect,` Gk. word `eklektos,` chosen, elect.

Israel is an elect group of God, called, chosen out of the nations of the world. (Rom. 11: 26 – 28)

The Body of Christ is another group of God, elect, called, chosen out of Israel & the nations. (Eph. 2: 15)

 

So this is how I see the Matt. 24 groups.

1. The `elect,` Israel who have been scattered through persecution. Isaiah tells us that the Gentiles will bring the Jews back from out of all the nations. (Isa. 66: 20)

    

2. The  `sheep` nations. These are those people whom God says looked after the Jews while they were persecuted – in prison, hungry, thirsty etc. Many would be looking for the Messiah they were told about, to come.

    

The difficulty I see people have, is that they expect that people in the trib. will be like in the Body of Christ. However, we are a special group for a special purpose. Those people who go through the trib. will not be `set` in the Body of Christ, they will not be spiritually apart of the wonderful organism called the Body of Christ.

The people that go through the trib. & turn to God because of all the horrors, are called – the nations. They are believers in God of the nations. They will look to God for His Messiah to come & rule in Jerusalem, Israel. This is the revelation given to them. This is what God`s word calls them.

`Behold, a great multitude....of all the nations....these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

 

The Body of Christ is never called `the nations.` Whereas these people are labelled those of all the nations.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:51 PM, Spock said:

I do not believe there is only one coming. That seems very illogical to me to think the rapture and the second are both on the same day. 

I'm with you, Spockster,

Believing the rapture and second coming will be fulfilled in the same day is like believing Christ died, was buried and resurrected all on the same day as well.  Gentile believers today just don't get that Christ fulfilled each one of the spring feasts on there appointed times; Pass over, feast of unleavened bread and feast of first fruits.  And He will likewise fulfill the fall feasts when He returns as well. 

It is widely believed that the rapture will occur on the feast of trumpets.  Nine days later is the Day of Atonement, and two weeks later is the feast of Tabernacles.  These feast days point to Christ and are all about Him.  But they are mere shadows of things to come, as Christ is the substance, as He is the fulfillment of each one of them (Col. 2:17).  The main events that are future are: Rapture, Armageddon and Christ saving Israel (remnant), and the coronation of the King of kings (millennial reign). 

I think what trips most people up who believe this is when they read that Christ will raise them up on the last day.  They don't seem to realize that the last day here, represents the Sabbath Rest, the Day of the Lord and will last 1000 years.  Him raising them up speaks of the resurrection bodies of the righteous who will return to reign with Him.  So the saints will be resurrected and reign with Him during the millennium is all that it is really saying.  Yet so many times people use this as the timing for the rapture.  Oh well, I guess they'll find out eventually, one way or another.

 

 

Cheers.