Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure 

No one cares what you do in reality. 

I care when someone maligns the language.
I care when someone tries to change the Scripture with their contortion of the language.
I care when people purport to represent their thinking as being by the authority of God so as to support their changing Scripture through maligning the language.
And I don't care if you don't care if I care.

It helps to understand a word by studying its family and its root: its etymology.
However, etymology matters not a whit in determining -accurately- its unique definition.  

The definition of a word differentiates it from its family of like-minded words.
Its definition differentiates it from them - period.

GOOD SCHOLARLY WORK does NOT attempt to muddy the water of word definition by inference.
AND NO SCHOLAR AT ALL claims Holy inspiration for shoddy work.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the Theological Word Dictionary of the New Testament has this to say on p. 89:

apostasia. Based on apostátēs (politically a “rebel,” religiously an “apostate”), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I care when someone maligns the language.
I care when someone tries to change the Scripture with their contortion of the language.
I care when people purport to represent their thinking as being by the authority of God so as to support their changing Scripture through maligning the language.
And I don't care if you don't care if I care.

It helps to understand a word by studying its family and its root: its etymology.
However, etymology matters not a whit in determining -accurately- its unique definition.  

The definition of a word differentiates it from its family of like-minded words.
Its definition differentiates it from them - period.

GOOD SCHOLARLY WORK does NOT attempt to muddy the water of word definition by inference.
AND NO SCHOLAR AT ALL claims Holy inspiration for shoddy work.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the Theological Word Dictionary of the New Testament has this to say on p. 89:

apostasia. Based on apostátēs (politically a “rebel,” religiously an “apostate”), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)

 

And you think that the Church goes through the Tribulation.......Like my OP said, the first 7 English Translations had Depart. And the subject is not about the Faith, it is about the Gathering unto Christ before the day of the Lord. Just because you always thought something was meant, doesn't mean that is what it meant. If the Subject of the passage is the Faith and Depart is used, then you are OK, but if the subject is the Rapture (gathering together unto Christ) then Depart ,means to be Raptured unto Christ. It is really very simple. 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

It was the first post I read.  I read what you had about apostisia, but nothing on harpazo, which is what I suggested.  Don't take it personally, it's not about you.

I thought that was another post by O'R......I have studied Harpazo in depth. It was not a part of this passage so I didn't mention it. But here is my best understandIng of Harpazo, I have this BOOKMARKED...........

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

In the Greek New Testament, the word harpazo is found a total of 17 times in 13 different verses. Each time harpazo is used this verb refers to a quick or sudden often violently physical “snatching away” or “catching away” of a person, a thing, or an idea. More important is the fact that in 5 of these 17 times harpazo is used in the New Testament harpazo ALWAYS refers to the literal physical (bodily) removal of a faithfully righteous human being from one place to another, or from one sphere of existence to another. The 5 times harpazo is used involving faithfully righteous people are when:

1. Philip is harpazo’d from the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch to a different location miles away (see Acts 8:39, AKJV)

2.  Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2, AKJV)

3. Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven; second reference (see 2 Corinthians 12:4, AKJV)

4. Bride of Christ is harpazo’d from the Earth to the clouds to meet Her Groom (Christ Jesus) in the air (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17, AKJV); the understanding here is that the Bride will be taken to Heaven to be with Her Groom

5. Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

Each one of the above five supernaturally powerful acts of the Holy Spirit by which literal bodily removals of humans either from one place to another on Earth or from off of this Earth to Heaven proves that the Rapture is a biblically sound doctrine. In fact, the English words Rapture and Raptured actually are derived from the Latin verb rapio(catch up or take away), and rapio is used in the Latin Vulgate Bible (also referred to asThe Vulgate).

The point here is that many of America’s English words, like Rapture and Raptured, and etc., are derived from words found in the Latin Vulgate Bible—the most commonly used translation of the Holy Bible. St Jerome’s late 4th-century A.D. revised Latin translation of the old Latin Biblical Texts became The Vulgate, and The Vulgate was used over 1,000 years before the Protestant Reformation started! In essence, no other Holy Bibletranslation has been used longer than the Latin Vulgate Bible, and that includes the highly promoted Authorized King James Version (AKJV)!

So then, believers who doubt that the idea of a Rapture is in their English translations of the Holy Bible need to understand that it is from the Greek New Testament manuscripts that St. Jerome, scholar/translator, originally renders the Latin rapiemur (the first person plural future passive indicative tense of rapio) from the Greek harpagesometha(the first person plural future passive indicative tense of harpazo). Furthermore, in the English versions of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, rapiemur has been translated from Latin into English as either “we shall be snatched,” or “we shall be grabbed,” or “we shall be carried off,” and so forth. Similarly, harpagesometha has been translated from Greek into English as “we shall be caught up” or “we shall be taken away,” and etc. Moreover, as already mentioned, with every Latin and English translation of harpagesometha the meaning of this Greek verb always connotes a catching or taking that will be a violent, sudden event!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 the first 7 English Translations had Depart. 

That means NOTHING.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

17 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

And the subject is about the Gathering unto Christ before the day of the Lord. 

Well you're still in error because our being gathered up doesn't happen until the Son of Perdition is revealed, and that doesn't happen until the rebellion happens, which you want to say is the Rapture.  

So the Day of Christ AND our Rapture cannot happen until our Rapture and the Son of Perdition is revealed ~ is how you want to read 2nd Thessalonians 2.

And that is not logical.

I don't care if Ice and LaHaye would like to read apostasia as they do.
They do because they have a conclusion before they approach the text.
So they make the text agree with their position by changing the language.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Well you're still in error because our being gathered up doesn't happen until the Son of Perdition is revealed, and that doesn't happen until the rebellion happens, which you want to say is the Rapture.  

So the Day of Christ AND our Rapture cannot happen until our Rapture and the Son of Perdition is revealed ~ is how you want to read 2nd Thessalonians 2.

And that is not logical.

I don't care if Ice and LaHaye would like to read apostasia as they do.
They do because they have a conclusion before they approach the text.
So they make the text agree with their position by changing the language.

I likewise could care less what you have to say and I am finished with you for good, I do not chat with people who are rude and seek confrontations. Please do not reply to me again. I do not need the static. Go do your own thing and confront others, I would not be cordial if I told you what I really think about your attitude. 

 

God Bless

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It is an error to read apostasia as "departing first".

Not only is it in violation of the actual definition of apostasia, which is directly imported into English as apostasy and carries its definition with it,

It makes the whole point of 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 completely nonsensical, setting the Rapture as a necessary prerequisite event for the coming of Jesus and our Rapture.

And people squeal just as loud as a pig when you "point" this out.

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I thought that was another post by O'R......I have studied Harpazo in depth. It was not a part of this passage so I didn't mention it. But here is my best understandIng of Harpazo, I have this BOOKMARKED...........

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

In the Greek New Testament, the word harpazo is found a total of 17 times in 13 different verses. Each time harpazo is used this verb refers to a quick or sudden often violently physical “snatching away” or “catching away” of a person, a thing, or an idea. More important is the fact that in 5 of these 17 times harpazo is used in the New Testament harpazo ALWAYS refers to the literal physical (bodily) removal of a faithfully righteous human being from one place to another, or from one sphere of existence to another. The 5 times harpazo is used involving faithfully righteous people are when:

1. Philip is harpazo’d from the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch to a different location miles away (see Acts 8:39, AKJV)

2.  Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2, AKJV)

3. Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven; second reference (see 2 Corinthians 12:4, AKJV)

4. Bride of Christ is harpazo’d from the Earth to the clouds to meet Her Groom (Christ Jesus) in the air (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17, AKJV); the understanding here is that the Bride will be taken to Heaven to be with Her Groom

5. Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

Each one of the above five supernaturally powerful acts of the Holy Spirit by which literal bodily removals of humans either from one place to another on Earth or from off of this Earth to Heaven proves that the Rapture is a biblically sound doctrine. In fact, the English words Rapture and Raptured actually are derived from the Latin verb rapio(catch up or take away), and rapio is used in the Latin Vulgate Bible (also referred to asThe Vulgate).

The point here is that many of America’s English words, like Rapture and Raptured, and etc., are derived from words found in the Latin Vulgate Bible—the most commonly used translation of the Holy Bible. St Jerome’s late 4th-century A.D. revised Latin translation of the old Latin Biblical Texts became The Vulgate, and The Vulgate was used over 1,000 years before the Protestant Reformation started! In essence, no other Holy Bibletranslation has been used longer than the Latin Vulgate Bible, and that includes the highly promoted Authorized King James Version (AKJV)!

So then, believers who doubt that the idea of a Rapture is in their English translations of the Holy Bible need to understand that it is from the Greek New Testament manuscripts that St. Jerome, scholar/translator, originally renders the Latin rapiemur (the first person plural future passive indicative tense of rapio) from the Greek harpagesometha(the first person plural future passive indicative tense of harpazo). Furthermore, in the English versions of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, rapiemur has been translated from Latin into English as either “we shall be snatched,” or “we shall be grabbed,” or “we shall be carried off,” and so forth. Similarly, harpagesometha has been translated from Greek into English as “we shall be caught up” or “we shall be taken away,” and etc. Moreover, as already mentioned, with every Latin and English translation of harpagesometha the meaning of this Greek verb always connotes a catching or taking that will be a violent, sudden event!

Then please tell me why you are trying to make apostasia to be the same as harpazo ?  You know the difference.  Apostasia means to turn away voluntarily from and harpazo means to be taken from by force.   To fall away from is not the rapture.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

27 minutes ago, OneLight said:

To fall away from is not the rapture.

Correct.

The word ‘rapture’ comes from the Latin word rapio.  It is just the Latin translation of the Greek verb harpázō which Paul uses in 2CO 12:2, 4 and 1TH 4:17.  Idiosyncrasies of translation confuse a search of the term Rapture in the English and from the underlying Greek.  It is only when an intervening step of translating the Greek into Latin and then into English can it be understood from where this word came into the English lexicon. 

harpázō. a. “To steal,” b. “to capture,” c. “to snatch,” d, “to seize,” e. “to take by force,” f. “to catch away” (in visions).
– Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p.80. 

apostasía. [apostasy] Based on apostátēs (politically a “rebel,” religiously an “apostate”), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)
– Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p. 88 and 89

Edited October 15, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Correct.

The word ‘rapture’ comes from the Latin word rapio.  It is just the Latin translation of the Greek verb harpázō which Paul uses in 2CO 12:2, 4 and 1TH 4:17.  Idiosyncrasies of translation confuse a search of the term Rapture in the English and from the underlying Greek.  It is only when an intervening step of translating the Greek into Latin and then into English can it be understood from where this word came into the English lexicon. 

harpázō. a. “To steal,” b. “to capture,” c. “to snatch,” d, “to seize,” e. “to take by force,” f. “to catch away” (in visions).
– Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p.80. 

apostasía. [apostasy] Based on apostátēs (politically a “rebel,” religiously an “apostate”), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)
– Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p. 88 and 89

Hi Marcus,

Now that is an interesting phrase. I have my thoughts but am interested in what it seems to mean to you -Eschatological apostasy.

regards, Marilyn.