Jump to content
Limey_Bob

Oneness claims that John 14:10 states that Jesus is God the Father

Recommended Posts

17 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

If we use the word our as being more than one, then the Holy Spirit has a body also.

 

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me”

Maybe see it all as when God uses a plural identity for itself that it is the best way an eternal and holy spirit chooses to communicate to itself from itself being we exist created from itself in the beginning. As is all things under the sun created too. 

We're not ever really separated from the totality that is I Am. Because that is where we came from first.Body, mind, and soul. We have our own trinity of sorts. Born from that which is creator soul, of an infinite mind, able to manifest itself in the body called God with us. So as to meet us face to face and tell us it isn't really a matter of faith HE exists. It is a matter of fact now that the faith has caused us to believe we can know the God in us. If we just face ourselves. 

Everything Immanuel Jesus did during his time on earth was to deliver a visual image behind a spiritual truth. How can we hear God if we don't know first where to look? We're visually predisposed as human creatures. 
Say, "Tree". What comes to mind? 

Say, "God". As a primitive having no concept of what that means human society has created a picture to fit that thought of God. the question of why this world is what is is. Ancient people put a stone there where our visual of Jesus lives today. Ancients put "tree" there. Buffalo there. Self there. 

God is everything. There really is no separation just power creating of itself, from itself, according to the infinite plan born of itself. 

You know, we're never going to arrive at a consensus as to what God looks like. Trinity, or otherwise. We're not going to reach an accord as one deciding among the billions of us what The One looks like . To meet our ideal of what it has to look like to satisfy our mind that that really is The God. 

That we breathe proves that God is. Jesus was too. Jesus was God showing people the potential people who connect with him in body, mind, and spirit, can achieve. If they just let go of thinking this flesh comes first. And often that's what divides the human family on earth. We all have this idea of what it is to understand the reason for being. And that is always born from the ego that first thinks it can achieve through itself what that human mind will agree and the consciousness accept the limits thereof, when we each believe we know what God looks like to us. 

Then we have this need to tell ourselves that in order to find the answer to that question of what is God? We have to lose ourselves. But that we frame limits and identity upon the answer that God must arrive at to meet our question to show proof God is, we use our self awareness. And to sustain that as being right, because we're selfish and self-absorbed, we set bars, criteria, milestones, that what we're led to believe is God must meet in order for us to believe we are worshiping the one true God. 

 

We're a riot when I think about it. We look to arrive at a consciousness that denies flesh. Then the products of flesh, mind,ego, sets an ideal for what it will look like when we arrive there. As "its" favorite. 

Chosen people. 
There is only one way......

God, from whence all that exists came to exist, has a favorite. 

Yeah, that's a higher consciousness. 

As long as we can think we can picture what it means to be the one true God we're always going to be wandering the desert and across generations following that voice that calls us forward and promises there is a shape to it. Just work a little longer, live a little longer, do a few things in faith, and you'll know it. You'll believe it. You'll see it for yourself. Something other that arrives to live sealed inside yourself. Does it come from without? Or is it actually activated from within? When all is God, so too are we particles of the body of God. 

Finding Jesus, the gateway, as he's called, the door, is opening to what is behind the door inside your awareness of those limits surrounding identity as "self". Behold God with us stands at that door and knocks. Even in the pictures of it in art do you notice? There's no door knob on God with us side of the door. 

We have to let him in. By letting go of what we think frames the question is there a God and that frame that says yes, and it looks like this....

Look in the mirror. Made in the image and likeness of God. Love God. Love You. Live for the higher awareness that is in the light. Cast off the comfort that is found living in the limits of the dark. 

God is light. 

Isn't it wunnerful? :) :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I didn't separate them, God did as clearly defined in the first two verses of the bible.  There is God in verse 1, and the Spirit of God in verse 2.

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 

Not God, but the Spirit of God, also known as the Holy Spirit.

God bless

Then again I agree 

God was in heaven and his spirit from him moved upon the waters. This spirit is God but not a separate being from him or another entity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

Then again I agree 

God was in heaven and his spirit from him moved upon the waters. This spirit is God but not a separate being from him or another entity.

 

Not entirely, I want to refer back to what you said in the previous post.

So God can only be in one place and he used his spirit to  make and to move things  for him, but that spirit does not have a mind of its own because it is just a spirit from him.

The Spirit of God didn't make things though, His Spirit hovered over what He had made.  Where we differ is that you have decided to set limitations on God, as far as what He can or cannot do.  Scripture offers no support for this claim, rather the opposite.  Example being, if I am a believer, and you are a believer, the Holy Spirit dwells in each.  We are not in the same place though, so God can be in more than one place at the same time.

God bless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

The Spirit of God didn't make things though, His Spirit hovered over what He had made.  Where we differ is that you have decided to set limitations on God, as far as what He can or cannot do.  Scripture offers no support for this claim, rather the opposite.  Example being, if I am a believer, and you are a believer, the Holy Spirit dwells in each.  We are not in the same place though, so God can be in more than one place at the same time.

God bless

Yes, God can be in us both in different places, its not his body that is in us but his spirit is, so seeing that the spirit is him.

We have a part of God in us, the  gift of the Holy Ghost.

The spirit has not a mind of its own, it come from the mind of God.

When God gives different kinds of spiritual gifts unto men, he uses his spirit  in a different way to make those operations to work, God is in control of those gifts by his spirit.

I am just saying is that God and his spirit is not separate, its still one being operating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

Yes, God can be in us both in different places, its not his body that is in us but his spirit is, so seeing that the spirit is him.

We have a part of God in us, the  gift of the Holy Ghost.

The spirit has not a mind of its own, it come from the mind of God.

When God gives different kinds of spiritual gifts unto men, he uses his spirit  in a different way to make those operations to work, God is in control of those gifts by his spirit.

I am just saying is that God and his spirit is not separate, its still one being operating.

I agree.  While the Holy Spirit is in every believer wherever they are, God the Father is still sitting on the throne.  This is what makes them separate, and how I understand the Trinity.  So basically we believe the same thing, we are simply defining it differently.  Thank you for indulging my curiosity, I've enjoyed our conversation.

God bless

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/30/2017 at 11:35 AM, Limey_Bob said:

‘I and my Father are one.’  (John 10:30, KJV).

 

‘ego kai ho patar ev esmen: (John 10:30: The Nestles Greek text).

 

‘I ((Subject)) and ((conjunction)) my Father ((object)) are ((verb 1st-person-plural)) one ((adjective)).’  (John 10:30, KJV).

 

Oneness Pentecostals (Apostolics), and I used to be one back in the 1980s, would need to explain the use of the verb ‘to be,’ which a first person plural at John 10:30; ‘I and my Father (we) are one.’ This verse does not record Jesus as saying; ‘I am the Father,’ for such a direct claim by Jesus to be God the Father, would have included the verb ‘to be’ in the first person singular: ‘I am.’ But Jesus at John 10:30 instead applies a plural verb to both the Father and also to the Son; ‘are’ as in ‘we are,’ which is the verb ‘to be,’ (esmen) a present tense, in first person plural. This is why he specifically claimed to be God’s Son, and not God the Father himself at John 10:36; ‘Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?’

 

Secondly, why is the Greek neuter word ‘hen’ for ‘one’ used at John 10:30 rather than the masculine Greek word for “one,” which is the Greek ‘heis?’ This masculine word is always used in the Greek, to describe God as ‘one’ in the strictly numeric sense, and so logically it would be the only word which Jesus could use to claim that he is himself really God the Father in an absolute and literal sense. So the neuter word ‘hen,’ just means to be ‘one in agreement’ or to be ‘one in unity’ with another person, it’s used that way at 1st Corinthians 3:8, where Paul planted and Apollos watered so that were one (hen), which doesn’t mean that Paul is claiming that he was Apollos! Paul is just saying that they worked together as a team, but not that they were both the same one person! As a former Oneness Pentecostal, allow me to warn people against this error, which is sweeping through and taking over nominally Trinitarian Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches around the world. I do have a video on my own YouTube channel of me explaining this verse, however, I do not know if I am permitted to post this here, possibly the admins could help me with the rules.

Matthew 1:23 proves Jesus was to be God the Father even before he was conceived upon his virgin mother. 

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Jesus, or Immanuel, himself said more than enough times to convince his fellows that he was also God the Father. In fact, it was that profession before the temple court that caused the Sadducee to want him crucified for the offense of blasphemy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not here to participate in the debate of the trinity but have a related questions for all of you who believe yourself experts on the matter.

What changes when one believes one way or another?

How is life on earth affected when one believes trinity? If non Trinitarian?

What I am looking for is the purpose of the attack on truth.  What is the gain?

An attack on the resurrection can be an attack on our lifestyle for Paul said if the do not rise then we might as well eat drink and be merry but we do not because of the resurrection of the dead.

What is at stake here?  What changes with life when one believes trinity?  When one does not?

For if there is no affect then the only thing at stake is unity.  The doctrine only serves a purpose of division.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Trinity Thoughts
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Fridaywinds said:

Matthew 1:23 proves Jesus was to be God the Father even before he was conceived upon his virgin mother. 

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Jesus, or Immanuel, himself said more than enough times to convince his fellows that he was also God the Father. In fact, it was that profession before the temple court that caused the Sadducee to want him crucified for the offense of blasphemy.

To be one with another does not equate as being the very same person.  That is where Oneness goes wrong.  Oneness ignores the following scripture:

1 John 5:6-8

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.  For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.  And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Notice scripture tells us there are three entities, not one entity appearing as three different entities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By KiwiChristian
      Hi guys.
       
      i am feeling really lonely in a mostly-jw and non-trinitarian forumn.
       
      Could use some help and backup!
      I am Jesus Defender there.
      https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/55859-the-trinity-and-it’s-false-theology/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-91873
    • By Jonathan BeWell
      I read the entire "Christian's going to hell" thread and was about to jump in with my own reply.  I did not realize the limitations of this forum section.  I suppose that is fine.  I got a lot out of what was discussed but still struggle with some of it.  I get all the points of views, proof, beliefs and such.  I am not trying to call out or trap anyone.  I am a baby Christian and have honest questions for clarification.  I pray we can all come to an agreement on God's word and truth.
      I was hoping we could base the discussion on Matthew 25 ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+25&version=NIV ) and how it related to the thread I could not jump in on.  My question is this.  Does Matthew 25 add or take away from any and all posts made there by *everyone*? 
      I have more specific questions too.  The ten virgins for starters, do they not represent Christians covered in the blood of Jesus?  I am not clear on the oil in their lamps as well.  I suppose it could relate to my above general question.
      I am wrestling with all this.  I believe I am a born again Christian.  I have faith in my salvation.  I am concerned about others I care for and love.  I will elaborate and add more enquiries as this thread develops.  May opportunities open to know and understand the Holy Trinity better.  Be well, content and helpful in the Lord. 
    • By mymessagefrompaula
      "How can you love God, whom you have not seen, if you don't love your brother who you have seen?"
      Some people speak about loving God so much, but isn't God wanting us to focus on those who are suffering all over the world?
       
      God Bless
       
      Pamela
    • By Jonathan BeWell
      Our Heavenly Father, whose Son is thee door to heaven, Holy Spirit lovingly teaching us meaning of your name.
      I continue to confess, apologize for, rebuke and repent from surfacing sin. May your revival usher in your kingdom according to your will with ours bent to it. May our leaders own up to their power and responsibilities by declaring and enabling your rule, reign and sovereignty. May they be careful and aware of their extreme influence. May we awake and arise to these times of spiritual crisis from which all other curses fester. May we acknowledge Jesus Christ as living water from whom all healing and restoration flows. Forgive us Lord for our distractions, false idols and sin in place of You. We are near rock bottom and have only You to save us. Have mercy on our souls. May You revive us and have us grow, ripe for harvest. Lest we forget the folly and fate of our past. We have You to thank and draw us near in times of desperation. I call upon your terms, cleanse the church to make Christ's body fit for the good Lord's fight, already won, rescue more lost souls. I dare cry "bloody murder" yet truth being told with our Saviour sacrificing himself. All who believe in him live eternally ever after.
      In Jesus Christ's pure perfect holy name I pray, amen.
      GregoryB
    • By KiwiChristian
      How can Jesus Christ be the Son of God? 
      In English, we have only one word for Son, which is “Son” meaning a boy derived from his parents by sex. The New Testament was written in the Greek language, and Greek has two words for “Son” being: 
      1. TEKNON means a boy, derived from his parents by sex. This word, TEKNON is never used in the New Testament to describe Jesus as the “Son of God,” because we all agree, both Muslims, Christians, Quran and the Bible, that God does not have sex, does not have a wife, girlfriend, or babies. True? 
      2. HUIOS means same nature as, eg. Son of peace (Luke 10:36) means you have the nature of peace, or sons of disobedience (Eph 5:6). Jesus as “Son of God” means that He has 100% the same nature as God. Jesus is also called in the New Testament the “only begotten” Son of God. 
      In Greek this is mono genes huios 
      1. “mono” means “one and same”, for example the monorail travels on one rail. 
      2. “genes” means “genetics”. We have about 25,000 genes which determine our every detail. So, Jesus as the “only begotten Son of God” means that He has the same genetics and the same nature as God. 
       
×