Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Amazing Horse]

4 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Here is the end times puzzle. Notice anything about it?

Exactly, there's no image to go by. Yet, the pieces all fit perfectly. Only the Holy Spirit can tell you the truth if you're willing to listen to Him, the Author of the puzzle, instead of unholy men with their ideas. If you have to throw out one verse to prove your belief, then it's WRONG. 

Isaiah 46:9-10 (KJV)
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So if you want to know the end, study the beginning. 

 

If there is Pre-tribulation rapture then God HAVE to tell you about it or else he is LAIR and not God .

 

Amos 3:7

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

We are pre trib believers. If a person truly reads the Bible literally for which God intended they can't miss the pre tribulation view.

 

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

Because people take different views than you and insist they are reading literally also. So you believe your view, they believe theirs, and I listen to all the different explanations and debates, and determine that nobody can prove their opinion is right, so until someone can plainly prove their opinion, I keep reminding them it is improper to state their opinion is the only possible option, and everyone that disagrees with their opinion is unlearned or wrong or blinded or whatever else. 

I think your point, is well taken hmbld!

missmuffet, I see this point made frequently by pre-tribbers, about theirs being the only position, that is compatible with the Bible literally. it is a great assertion, but I never really understand it.

First off, I admit I do not always take the Bible literally, there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not. The way I approach that, is that I take the Bible literally, unless there is a compelling reason not to. We might have different reasons or definitions of what is compelling though.

Taking the Bible literally, is what lead to threads here about the Earth being flat. It could lead to people insisting upon the execution of homosexuals, who need to come to a relationship with the Lord Jesus, are we willing to go there? Is Jesus literally a slab of wood, hanging on hinges when He said I am the door? No, we understand that as a metaphor, that He is claiming to be the way to salvation. Literalness is great, where it should be applied, but awkward and misleading, when inappropriate.

As near as I can tell, taking the Bible literally, is not something that pre-tribbers do any better than post-tribbers. To hold that anyone who reads the Bible literally cannot miss the fact of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible, is making several interesting claims. 

1. You say that that is literal interpretation, is what God intended. Can you prove that, or is that just what you believe to be the case.

2. You are claiming, that your literal interpretation, is superior to others who disagree with you, and yet also hold to literal interpretation.

3. You claimed that God wants His wisdom and His truth visible and clear to all. If that is true, why did Jesus speak in parables (Hint: Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.) If God, who is intelligent, a great communicator, and "clear" as you say, and certainly able to give people understanding and reveal truth, why is this topic so confusing and elusive? Why does He not speak plainly, if He wants everyone to know?

4. You are indirectly stating, that users here, and Christians around the world, and across centuries, have an inferior understanding to you. For example, people like Steve_S, George, and myself, must not be as good as you are at understanding the Bible because what, we disagree with you? Really?

Now, I assume, that you do not necessarily mean all of the things, that I just said are implied in your statments, so:

Exactly what you mean when you assert that a literal understanding will lead to a pre-trib rapture viewpoint? Can you help us to understand what you mean by that? Can you give us, some examples, where the Bible literally says, there will be a rapture of the church before the great tribulation? Can you also give example, where those of us, who believe the rapture is after the great tribulation, are not taking the Bible literally, in a way we can all clearly see?

Just to be clear and succint, for others that are reading this thread, I will post some things I have said before on this topic, and they can see if perhaps, you are overstating the case:

Things that many pre-triibbers say, but the Bible does not say:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Now, I am pretty sure I also had a list of things the Bible does say about the end times here on Worthy, but if I did, I cannot find it, no matter. However, I also have a summary, of things that I believe as a post-trib rapture believer, with actual Bible quotes that I believe are compatible with my view, for those interested to examine.

So missmuffet, care to explain why you think pre-tribbers are more literal or how  posties are not, with actually examples, and not mere assertions? Enquiring minds, want to know!

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

I think your point, is well taken hmbld!

missmuffet, I see this point made frequently by pre-tribbers, about theirs being the only position, that is compatible with the Bible literally. it is a great assertion, but I never really understand it.

First of, I admit I do not always take the Bible literally, there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not. The way I approach that, is that I take the Bible literally, unless there is a compelling reason not to. We might have different reasons or definitions, of what is compelling though.

Taking the Bible literally, is what lead to threads here about the Earth being flat. It could lead to people insisting upon the execution of homosexuals, who need to come to a relationship with the Lord Jesus, are we willing to go there? Is Jesus literally a slab of wood, hanging n hinges when He said I am the door? No, we understand that as a metaphor, that He is claiming to be the way to salvation. Literalness is great, where it should be applied, but awkward and misleading, when inappropriate.

As near as I can tell, taking the Bible literally, is not something that pre-tribbers do any better than post-tribbers. To hold that anyone who reads the Bible literally cannot miss the fact of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible, is making several interesting claims. 

1. You say that that is literal interpretation, is what God intended. Can you prove that, or is that just what you beleive to be the case.

2. You are claiming, that your literal interpretation, is superior to others who disagree with you, and yet also hold to literal interpretation.

3. You claimed that God wants His wisdom and His truth visible and clear to all. If that is true, why did Jesus speak in parables (Hint: Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.) If God, who is intelligent, a great communicator, and "clear" as you say, and certainly able to give people understanding and reveal truth, why is this topic so confusing and elusive? Why does He not speak plainly, if He wants everyone to know?

4. You are indirectly stating, that users here, and Christians around the world, and across centuries, have an inferior understanding to you. For example, people like Steve_S, George, and myself, must not be as good as you are at understanding the Bible because what, we disagree with you? Really?

Now, I assume, that you do not necessarily mean all of the things, that I just said are implied in your statments, so:

Exactly what you mean when you assert that a literal understanding will lead to a pre-trib rapture view point? Can you help us to understand what you mean by that? Can you give us, some examples, where the Bible literally says, there will be a rapture of the church before the great tribulation? Can you also give example, where those of us, who believe the rapture is after the great tribulation, not not taking the Bible literally, in a way we can all clearly see?

Just to be clear and succint, for others that are reading this thread, I will post some things I have said before on this topic, and they can see if perhaps, you are overstating the case:

Many pre-triibbers say, but the Bible does not say:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Now, I am pretty sure I also had a list of things the Bible does say about the end times here on Worthy, but if I did, I cannot find it, no matter. However, I also have a summary, of things that I believe as a post-trib rapture believer, with actual Bible quotes that I believe are compatible with my view, for those interested to examine.

So missmuffet, care to explain why you think pre-tribbers are more literal or how  posties are not, with actually examples, and not mere assertions? Enquiring minds, want to know!

Omega I have said what I need to say and I have posted Scripture to support my beliefs. I do not want to make this a long drawn out debate.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Omega I have said what I need to say and I have posted Scripture to support my beliefs. I do not want to make this a long drawn out debate.

I don't blame you, so in other words, you really have nothing to say? Not even it just to point us to other posts of yours, where you make the case with evidence, instead of assertions and links to what others say? Yeah, I thought not, so you are off the hook, never mind.

[Amazing Horse]

12 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

I think your point, is well taken hmbld!

missmuffet, I see this point made frequently by pre-tribbers, about theirs being the only position, that is compatible with the Bible literally. it is a great assertion, but I never really understand it.

First off, I admit I do not always take the Bible literally, there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not. The way I approach that, is that I take the Bible literally, unless there is a compelling reason not to. We might have different reasons or definitions of what is compelling though.

Taking the Bible literally, is what lead to threads here about the Earth being flat. It could lead to people insisting upon the execution of homosexuals, who need to come to a relationship with the Lord Jesus, are we willing to go there? Is Jesus literally a slab of wood, hanging on hinges when He said I am the door? No, we understand that as a metaphor, that He is claiming to be the way to salvation. Literalness is great, where it should be applied, but awkward and misleading, when inappropriate.

As near as I can tell, taking the Bible literally, is not something that pre-tribbers do any better than post-tribbers. To hold that anyone who reads the Bible literally cannot miss the fact of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible, is making several interesting claims. 

1. You say that that is literal interpretation, is what God intended. Can you prove that, or is that just what you believe to be the case.

2. You are claiming, that your literal interpretation, is superior to others who disagree with you, and yet also hold to literal interpretation.

3. You claimed that God wants His wisdom and His truth visible and clear to all. If that is true, why did Jesus speak in parables (Hint: Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.) If God, who is intelligent, a great communicator, and "clear" as you say, and certainly able to give people understanding and reveal truth, why is this topic so confusing and elusive? Why does He not speak plainly, if He wants everyone to know?

4. You are indirectly stating, that users here, and Christians around the world, and across centuries, have an inferior understanding to you. For example, people like Steve_S, George, and myself, must not be as good as you are at understanding the Bible because what, we disagree with you? Really?

Now, I assume, that you do not necessarily mean all of the things, that I just said are implied in your statments, so:

Exactly what you mean when you assert that a literal understanding will lead to a pre-trib rapture viewpoint? Can you help us to understand what you mean by that? Can you give us, some examples, where the Bible literally says, there will be a rapture of the church before the great tribulation? Can you also give example, where those of us, who believe the rapture is after the great tribulation, are not taking the Bible literally, in a way we can all clearly see?

Just to be clear and succint, for others that are reading this thread, I will post some things I have said before on this topic, and they can see if perhaps, you are overstating the case:

Things that many pre-triibbers say, but the Bible does not say:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Now, I am pretty sure I also had a list of things the Bible does say about the end times here on Worthy, but if I did, I cannot find it, no matter. However, I also have a summary, of things that I believe as a post-trib rapture believer, with actual Bible quotes that I believe are compatible with my view, for those interested to examine.

So missmuffet, care to explain why you think pre-tribbers are more literal or how  posties are not, with actually examples, and not mere assertions? Enquiring minds, want to know!

Proverbs 30:5-6

5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

 

Psalms 12:6-8

6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

 

Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

If you decide yourself what is true and what not , then how do you know if what is written about Jesus is true ? It could be false it could be true , people would have many opinions how to get saved , some would say this way some other way . God is not like that , God is not man , God is not author of confusion .

 

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

Revelation 3:15-16

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

Lukewarm Christians believe what they want to believe , rather what it's written , because it's easier this way , you should be like people in  Barea who search scriptures daily to prove if it is true .

 

Acts 17:10-11

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

So when someone claims something , you check if it's in Scriptures , it's not about how many arguments somebody have for or against doctrine but if that doctrine is either False or True , no between .

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, Amazing Horse said:

So when someone claims something , you check if it's in Scriptures , it's not about how many arguments somebody have for or against doctrine but if that doctrine is either False or True , no between .

Sorry Horse, I am not sure what you are trying to say, I cannot even tell if you are agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me, nor none of the above!

[Robert William]

Scripture teaches that the rapture is at the last trump, more Christians will be killed than raptured.

[Amazing Horse]

31 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

So read Gen 8 back to 1 - see where chapter 5 falls into the scenario... 

Isaiah 46:10

 

40 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

1) It does in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

2) Church is removed from hour of temptation , Church is waiting for blessed hope and blessed hope is not antichrist and famine with wars  untill half of world dies . Titus 2:13

3) It does in  2 Thessalonians 2:7 , it's removed before Tribulation / Great Tribulation , because Antichrist could not rise to power because of this in 1 John 4:4

4) It does in Isaiah 26:18-21 , Revelation 6:16-17 , 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 ,

5) It does , because otherwise Scriptures would contradict itself , he can't come both as thief to these who look to him for salvation and come so everybody can see him , because not everybody is looking for salvation .Revelation 16:15 , Hebrews 9:28 , Revelation 1:7 , he can't appear as thief when before he appear people are alredy hiding from God under rocks so they don't see his face  Revelation 6:16

6) It does say in Matthew 24:36

7) At appointed time which we don't know but only God does , that's why we keep watching Luke 21:36 , why would we watch if Antichrist had to come first .

8) It does as stated above

9) It does , because two gospels of salvation would contradict themselfes if church went into tribulation .

Galatians 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

and

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Also if Christians could take mark of beast , then God lied in John 10:28 , because Antichrist would pluck them out of God's hand , so either God lied or Church is not in tribulation.

 

10) Then what is blessed hope ? Waiting for persecution and Antichrist to kill us all ?

Luke 18:8

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

If church goes through tribulation then there  could be nobody to rapture , because all would be dead .

 

11) It does based on contradiction Scriptures with ability to lose salvation in tribulation by not keeping commandments and Ephesians 2:8-9 , Ephesians 1:13-14

12) It's true ,  When Jesus is returning with his saints , you don't need PhD to conclude that he must have taken them here first .

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

It does not say that Jesus come to us , but that we come to him , so we can be where he is now , where is he ? Sitting on right hand of God . He is not on earth right now .

13) It does , they are Jews , sealed before wrath of God so they are not hurt by it so they can preach . Revelation 7:3

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Amazing Horse]

18 minutes ago, Robert William said:

Scripture teaches that the rapture is at the last trump, more Christians will be killed than raptured.

Last trump in bible is in last year of 1000 year kingdom , trumpets in tribulation are not last , moreover they are blown by angels , trump blown at rapture is Trump of God .

Edited September 15, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[missmuffet]

20 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

Isaiah 46:10

 

1) It does in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

2) Church is removed from hour of temptation , Church is waiting for blessed hope and blessed hope is not antichrist and famine with wars  untill half of world dies . Titus 2:13

3) It does in  2 Thessalonians 2:7 , it's removed before Tribulation / Great Tribulation , because Antichrist could not rise to power because of this in 1 John 4:4

4) It does in Isaiah 26:18-21 , Revelation 6:16-17 , 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 ,

5) It does , because otherwise Scriptures would contradict itself , he can't come both as thief to these who look to him for salvation and come so everybody can see him , because not everybody is looking for salvation .Revelation 16:15 , Hebrews 9:28 , Revelation 1:7 , he can't appear as thief when before he appear people are alredy hiding from God under rocks so they don't see his face  Revelation 6:16

6) It does say in Matthew 24:36

7) At appointed time which we don't know but only God does , that's why we keep watching Luke 21:36 , why would we watch if Antichrist had to come first .

8) It does as stated above

9) It does , because two gospels of salvation would contradict themselfes if church went into tribulation .

Galatians 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

and

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Also if Christians could take mark of beast , then God lied in John 10:28 , because Antichrist would pluck them out of God's hand , so either God lied or Church is not in tribulation.

 

10) Then what is blessed hope ? Waiting for persecution and Antichrist to kill us all ?

Luke 18:8

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

If church goes through tribulation then there  could be nobody to rapture , because all would be dead .

 

11) It does based on contradiction Scriptures with ability to lose salvation in tribulation by not keeping commandments and Ephesians 2:8-9 , Ephesians 1:13-14

12) It's true ,  When Jesus is returning with his saints , you don't need PhD to conclude that he must have taken them here first .

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

It does not say that Jesus come to us , but that we come to him , so we can be where he is now , where is he ? Sitting on right hand of God . He is not on earth right now .

13) It does , they are Jews , sealed before wrath of God so they are not hurt by it so they can preach . Revelation 7:3

 

I do not believe that I posted this

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.