Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

5) It does , because otherwise Scriptures would contradict itself , he can't come both as thief to these who look to him for salvation and come so everybody can see him , because not everybody is looking for salvation .Revelation 16:15 , Hebrews 9:28 , Revelation 1:7 , he can't appear as thief when before he appear people are alredy hiding from God under rocks so they don't see his face  Revelation 6:16

Rev 16:15  "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Very important to note a couple of things here. First, in context, this statement is made during an explanation of the bowls of wrath. This is incredibly important. Nowhere near to this verse is a rapture of any sort mentioned. In fact, the very next verse mentions the gathering of the armies to the planes of meggido:

Rev 16:16  And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

This certainly seems as if this coming as a thief may be directly correlated with the gathering at meggido, which is, of course, when Christ returns as the conquering King.

On to Hebrews:

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:28  so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Please refer back to my post on Matthew 24 that describe's Christ's second coming in great detail, which is mentioned specifically as being after the great tribulation, not before (Matthew 24:29-31).

 

 

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

6) It does say in Matthew 24:36

This is a single, non-contextualized verse. Where in Matthew 24 is a secret, pretribulation rapture mentioned? Specifically, this is what the previous verses say in context:

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32  "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Mat 24:34  Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

But of what day and hour is being mentioned here? Certainly not a pretribulation rapture. All this says, with specificity, is that the elect will be gathered from one end of heaven to another and it says that this will happen after the sign of the Son of Man is seen in heaven, which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". We are told here that, at the least, we will be able to discern when this stuff is near to happening, and the main sign given previously in the chapter is the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel the prophet.

With specificity on the point on whether or not no one knows the day of the hour, no specific statement is made that no man will ever know, just that know one knew it then. Is this a statement that is made in eternal perpetuity? Possibly. Is that something we can definitively discern based on a plain reading? No.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

7) At appointed time which we don't know but only God does , that's why we keep watching Luke 21:36 , why would we watch if Antichrist had to come first .

We would watch simply because Jesus told us to, to start with. We are also told signs to watch for and the abdomination of desolation is one of those signs. Why would Christ say "when you see" with reference to the abomination if no Christians would be here to see it.

A question I would counter with is why we would be told to watch for rapture that happens before all the described events? How can a Christian watch for a rapture that they are going to be a part of, will have no idea is about to happen, and will take them by surprise. 

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

8) It does as stated above

It does not. The verses you listed above do not include a mention of "thief in the night." In fact, the only verses that mention this are from Peter and Paul:

1Th 5:1  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
1Th 5:2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

This does not say "when the rapture happens the Lord will come as a thief in the night" - it says that the *day of the Lord* so comes as a "thief in the night." Peter actually explains what "day of the Lord" is being referred to in this context:

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Does this sound like a pretribulation rapture of the church? This is clearly referring to something other than the rapture, to say the least.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

9) It does , because two gospels of salvation would contradict themselfes if church went into tribulation .

Galatians 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

and

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Also if Christians could take mark of beast , then God lied in John 10:28 , because Antichrist would pluck them out of God's hand , so either God lied or Church is not in tribulation.

Firstly, nobody here mentioned that Christians would take the mark of the beast. In fact, we are told that Christians do not!

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Obviously, though, the church is in the great tribulation:

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Referencing this back:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

The number of the people in white robes who came out of the great tribulation is so vast that no man could count it. This is indeed a large part of the church on earth getting martyred during the great tribulation.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

10. The Bible does not say that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

10) Then what is blessed hope ? Waiting for persecution and Antichrist to kill us all ?

Luke 18:8

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

If church goes through tribulation then there  could be nobody to rapture , because all would be dead .

This is the only biblical mention of the "blessed hope."

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Tit 2:13  looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

How and when does Christ appear:

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus is to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

11) It does based on contradiction Scriptures with ability to lose salvation in tribulation by not keeping commandments and Ephesians 2:8-9 , Ephesians 1:13-14

Nowhere does the scriptures say that experiencing the great tribulation will lead to accepting the mark of the beast. In fact, the bible says the is shortened for the sake of the elect!

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Why would the days be shortened for the sake of an elect who is not present?

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

12. It is often said by pre-tribbers: "The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church." I think those definitions are workable, however, the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

12) It's true ,  When Jesus is returning with his saints , you don't need PhD to conclude that he must have taken them here first .

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This verse has no context of a pretrib rapture. In fact, paul says:

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

There is no mention of timing at all here.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

13) It does , they are Jews , sealed before wrath of God so they are not hurt by it so they can preach . Revelation 7:3

Rev 7:2  Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

The bible says that there are 144,000 who are sealed and servants of God. That is all. It does not say that they will preach. Is it possible that they will preach? Yes. It doesn't say that though. This is the danger of theories that attribute doctrinal finality when there is no specificity. I personally believe that they will be witnesses, because that's one of the things that servants of God are indeed called to do. That is not listed as their specific function, though, so building that into an expansive doctrine and making parts of that doctrine dependent upon that and then teaching the entire doctrine as unmitigated inerrant fact is going too far.

Rev 14:1  Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
Rev 14:3  They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4  These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The bible says one of the specific purposes of the 144,000 were being the redeemed among men, firstfruits to God and the Lamb. Having opinions on other purposes, in my estimation, is fine, building those opinions into intricate doctrines and then teaching them as definitive fact, is not, again, in my estimation.

[Steve_S]

33 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

...

Sorry, brother, did not notice you had posted anything. I was going point by point in order and didn't look back through the thread until now.