Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

 

Yes WE will.   And the neat thing, it is coming at us like a rocket sled.  Not a lot of time left.  AMEN!

Clever, but No. There is no pretrib rapture. What's coming is the rise of the beast and he will overcome the church.

You'll see.

[OldCoot]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

Way off the point. Justify anything you wish. You'll see soon enough there is no pretrib rapture.

Who is the Lord? 

Could be.  But not really off point.  You were concentrating on Clarke referencing the Talmud and how that was bad.  Well, Yeshua had no problem observing a feast day that is only laid out in the Talmud and Mishna.  So maybe not everything in the Talmud is all that bad or goes against scripture.  It has it's problems, but they are easy to spot.

And if there is a pre-trib removal of the righteous, I won't gloat about it. I will be thankful.  If there isn't, It will not affect one bit my view on the Lord.  I would rather be using scripture justify my position than spending an inordinate amount of time using scripture to shoot down others.  Kind of reminds me of politics.  Don't focus on voting for someone you actually like.  Focus on voting for a candidate opposite the one you hate, even though you will likely end up with the same result in the end.  But that is the culture we live in now.

The problem I see in all of this, is that many who disagree with the idea of a pre-trib removal of the righteous seem so militant about it.  It is just one of many eschatological positions that have no bearing on one's actual salvation.  Yet, one thing I have noticed, if one holds to a pre-trib position, it seems like they just stuck themselves in a river full of piranha's.  Folks are going to descend on them in a feeding frenzy.   While I disagree with other positions, I primarily make the case for my own and don't normally go out of my way to attack the opposite position.    I don't think I have once in any thread related to the topic ever demeaned or condemned anyone for disagreeing.  It is for each to decide what the scripture is telling them.  I might have shot back a little based on how they treated me in the thread, but not over the position they hold.

And the militancy of some who want to chastise other who do hold to a pre-trib removal seems more to be focused on wanting others to suffer as opposed to encouraging one another. Seems strange.  A pre-trib offers a blessed hope.  Anything else only offers apprehension and fear.

We should be able to discuss these things like Brothers and Sisters who love the Lord and are part of the same body.  Sadly it seems, the prayer the Lord made in John 17:20-21  didn't get answered.  Yeah, in all of what the Lord has done, he ends up not getting what He desired.  He desired that all trust in Him, and that those who do will be as one.  Maybe not in each theological position, but in love and respect for each other.

But really, are dismissive comments like "justify anything you wish.  You'll see soon enough there is no pretrib rapture" really helpful to the discussion?  It smacks of dismissal, condemnation, and denigration.  Is that really what the Lord wanted of us?

 

[OldCoot]

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Clever, but No. There is no pretrib rapture. What's coming is the rise of the beast and he will overcome the church.

You'll see.

Still playing the dismissive card, eh?

Well, I was trying to be positive about it that we all would see what really happens.  But you might  have a point there.  Some of us will see a pre-trib removal and others won't.  But that will not be based on their eschatology but rather their relationship with the Lord.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

This is the common reaction of a pre-tribber to having their beliefs challenged.  We who post proofs against that teaching are called 'militant and chastiser's'.  It is because the 'rapture to heaven' believers have no scriptural support and are forced to make personal accusations against us. I have received much abuse and even actual threats of personal harm from rapture believers. 

This attitude is not Christian and can only come from Satan, who is the Deceiver and the originator of the lies and fables preached today. 

As for the 'Blessed hope', that is our Salvation thru Jesus and His promise of Eternal life. John 3:16  NOT goin to live in heaven, as Jesus plainly said that was impossible.  What we are told, is the Lord will protect His own during His wrath. Isaiah 43:2, and how we must call upon His Name... Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

No, it isn't posting what you believe is a refutation of the pre-trib position that is the problem.  It is the attitude of some that demeaning and denigrating those who hold a pre-trib position is proper.  I had no problem with and actually have enjoyed the back and forth when it came to scripture.  It makes me work thru the scripture and that is always beneficial.  But when subtle innuendos are tossed about like "you are just trying to justify your own faulty belief" and such subtleties which are intended to demean the opposition comes into play, that is not  Christian on any level.

Keras, you essentially did the same thing in your post.  "common reaction of pre-Tribbers" and the one that really smacks of denigrating others because it has single quotes around it meant to add some fuel to the fire.... "the 'rapture to heaven' believers."   See ones I highlighted and underlined in your post.   You know darn well that those comments were meant to demean or force people into a box of your own making.  If you don't, then you have to be the most naive person on the planet.  The fact that you put quotes around that one negative insinuation lends proof that you knew exactly what you were doing and wanted to emphasize it.  

You or anyone else will never be able to show where I used the same demeaning tactics on anyone.  Sure, I questioned interpretation of some verses and showed how it was disingenuous to avoid sound grammatical constructs in what a verse says.  But I have never said anything like "that is the problem with you Post Tribbers, Mid Tribbers, Pre Wratherites, or Amillenialists."   I have never even asked what other position anyone else holds.  I have just debated in support of the position I hold.    I have not even tried to attack any other position because, frankly, I have no clue what exact position any of you guys who have been going back and forth with me hold!   I only have gleaned from this debate is that you guys don't like my position.

And really, isn't that sad?  All this debate and the only thing I have gotten about others who have interacted with me is that they think I am wrong.  Not once in this back and forth has any of those who have interacted with me explained, even in basic terms, the position they hold and tried to lobby for it.  They just know I am wrong and by golly they are going to prove it.   Those in that camp, be careful.  That is bordering on pride and that is the basis for all sin.   Yet, it is clear the position I take and I don't shy away from it one bit. Never have.   And if no one buys it, that really isn't my problem.  I don't worry about it.  it is not a salvation dependent thing.   Where is the guts on other folk's part to proclaim their particular position and expound on it by showing verses that support their position instead of only using verses they think obliterates their opposition?   That is worldly, partizan politic style of debate.  And that clearly is un-Christian.  

Takes me back to the Vietnam War days of guerrilla tactics.  Just hit the opposition without standing ground long enough to expose any weakness in themselves.  And isn't that sad as well.  Now discussions and debates have to be akin to guerrilla warfare instead of thoughtful and passionate interaction.  Is it any wonder that the unsaved look at the Church and want no part of it.  

Now, you claim what I am doing isn't Christian because I pointed out what is going on.  I have not called into question anyone's salvation.  That is not in my pay grade.   But I along with others in the Body are called to inspect fruit.  That is in our pay grade.  And there is some pretty questionable fruit on the part of some on this forum.

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Thanks for your good reply, Old Coot!

Firstly, I want you to know that I am an 'old Coot', too. Been around for 76 years and got into intensive Bible study 7 years ago. 

Secondly, I [we who oppose the rapture theory] never say that by believing ideas and theories about the end times events that may be wrong, has any effect on a Christians salvation. Although it seems that some may renounce God when what they expected doesn't happen. 

Re; what I believe from the Prophetic Word, will happen, I have posted in many threads here and elsewhere. Plus all available free at logostelos.info

Your attitude in the post above, is one of a sadly wronged person. But we post scriptures that prove there is no rapture removal to heaven of anyone except the 2 Witnesses, in the end times. The 'harparzo' of 1 Thess 4:17, is merely a transportation to meet Jesus and then to be with Him in Jerusalem. There is no other scripture that even hints at a rapture to heaven. There is plenty that say how the Lord will protect His own during His wrath. 

You say: You or anyone else will never be able to show where I used the same demeaning tactics on anyone. Quote Old Coot.

You did just that!   Its the old pre-trib threat: If you don't believe it the Lord won't take you!  BAD fruit!

You are twisting things I stated.  That was a simple statement of fact.  If the pre-trib position is correct, some will see it... i.e. all those who are in right relationship with the Lord, irregardless of which eschatological position they hold.

Some won’t experience it... i.e. those who are not in the right relationship with the Lord.

You really need to lighten up and not come at every statement someone makes as if it is something to pounce on.  It negatively affects your reasoning process.  Read what is written and not what you think is written.

This is the kind of thing I was referring to.  Militant, confrontational attitudes.

You violated 2 of the 10 Commandments in front of everyone.  You carried (represented) the Lord's name in vain and you bore false witness against a brother.   Both stoning offenses in ancient Israel. Your problem is not with me.  I am a big boy.  But you might want to hit your knees before the Lord.

What is especially heinous about what you did, you started out with what appeared to be a respectful, considerate approach, just so you could make an attempt to go for the kill, which resulted in your misrepresenting, adding words not there, and demeaning me.  You really need to seek the Lord's face on this event.  It was cruel and malicious.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Still playing the dismissive card, eh?

Well, I was trying to be positive about it that we all would see what really happens.  But you might  have a point there.  Some of us will see a pre-trib removal and others won't.  But that will not be based on their eschatology but rather their relationship with the Lord.

The problem lies in the privilege and curse of free will. We are free to think and act as we wish. Some call this moral free agency as if there was a restriction. Worse is the ability to think and make choices sans standards or through personal standards. In light of this, fact, truth, and understanding are laid aside in favor of what is desirable to the flesh. No amount of reasoning, pleading or patience can overcome this. Only the touch of the Holy Spirit can give any individual the Light of revealed truth. I have seen it happen, so there is still hope for you and many others.

It is my hope the truth and understanding will come to you before the evil day arrives.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Could be.  But not really off point.  You were concentrating on Clarke referencing the Talmud and how that was bad.  Well, Yeshua had no problem observing a feast day that is only laid out in the Talmud and Mishna.  So maybe not everything in the Talmud is all that bad or goes against scripture.  It has it's problems, but they are easy to spot.

I would engage more thoroughly if deflection wasn't a main weapon in your arsenal. It has nothing to do with Jesus and feasts, it was about S. Clarke using Jewish tradition to predict rapture dates.  

And if there is a pre-trib removal of the righteous, I won't gloat about it. I will be thankful.  If there isn't, It will not affect one bit my view on the Lord.  I would rather be using scripture justify my position than spending an inordinate amount of time using scripture to shoot down others.  Kind of reminds me of politics.  Don't focus on voting for someone you actually like.  Focus on voting for a candidate opposite the one you hate, even though you will likely end up with the same result in the end.  But that is the culture we live in now.

It is political, for you. Here you engage in rhetoric and not fact, just like a politician.

The problem I see in all of this, is that many who disagree with the idea of a pre-trib removal of the righteous seem so militant about it.  It is just one of many eschatological positions that have no bearing on one's actual salvation.  Yet, one thing I have noticed, if one holds to a pre-trib position, it seems like they just stuck themselves in a river full of piranha's.  Folks are going to descend on them in a feeding frenzy.   While I disagree with other positions, I primarily make the case for my own and don't normally go out of my way to attack the opposite position.    I don't think I have once in any thread related to the topic ever demeaned or condemned anyone for disagreeing.  It is for each to decide what the scripture is telling them.  I might have shot back a little based on how they treated me in the thread, but not over the position they hold.

The moral high ground is not the domain of mankind. You shame yourself.

And the militancy of some who want to chastise other who do hold to a pre-trib removal seems more to be focused on wanting others to suffer as opposed to encouraging one another. Seems strange.  A pre-trib offers a blessed hope.  Anything else only offers apprehension and fear.

Emotional appeals are logically and factually fallacious. They do nothing to support a position. Advance cogent arguments supported by fact or the position is weak, or nonexistent.

We should be able to discuss these things like Brothers and Sisters who love the Lord and are part of the same body.  Sadly it seems, the prayer the Lord made in John 17:20-21  didn't get answered.  Yeah, in all of what the Lord has done, he ends up not getting what He desired.  He desired that all trust in Him, and that those who do will be as one.  Maybe not in each theological position, but in love and respect for each other.

I hear you calling for love and respect. You first. If you love, you speak truth, even if that truth is not easy to hear.

But really, are dismissive comments like "justify anything you wish.  You'll see soon enough there is no pretrib rapture" really helpful to the discussion?  It smacks of dismissal, condemnation, and denigration.  Is that really what the Lord wanted of us?

Nothing like seeing it for yourself. If biblical fact would have made any difference, it would already have done so. You choose to believe what you want. A person can and will convince themselves of anything, truth or not, facts or no. I cannot help you, only the Lord can. I see pretrib as a lot like Eve in the garden. She knew the truth and subverted that truth through desire. It's no different here. Pretrib desires a scenario. Poof! You have your scenario.

 

 

[Justin Adams]

The OP states proof of a future event. This might mislead many as future events cannot be proven.

Maybe a slight possibility, but not provable at all.

Pre-trib just does not make sense anyway!

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

The OP states proof of a future event. This might mislead many as future events cannot be proven.

Maybe a slight possibility, but not provable at all.

Pre-trib just does not make sense anyway!

I will be one of the first to admit... the whole idea sounds preposterous!  It flies in the face with anything that man in his developing a religion would usually come up with. 

It is akin to Quantum Physics.  I can't recall the physicist to stated this, but I remember the quote (paraphrased)..... "The one thing about Quantum Physics is that it seems like the most preposterous concept to come along, but it is unquestionably true".  

[Justin Adams]

One thing that we can take away from all this. It does not matter a hill-of-beans what I think.

Yahweh is God and in His Heaven and He will do what pleases Him!!!