Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Spock, when God first began speaking to me about Revelation, He sent me to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." At that time, He also said I could find the ENTIRE 70th week clearly marked.   This was words that I heard very clearly - like audible voice.  But I suddenly know WHY I could find the entire week clearly marked: God used the same marker for beginning, midpoint and end! That came by revealed knowledge without words.

I found the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. I rushed in my bible to the 7th vial and read, "it is done." I knew then I had the entire week! But I rushed in my bible to the 7th seal and read about the 30 minutes of silence. I thought: what a perfect way to start this period of Jacob's trouble.

Therefore, I am CONVINCED that the week opens with the 7th seal, and that the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint. Between these two points in John's narrative we find the first 6 trumpets. 

I think the AOD will take place when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares HE is the God of the Jews. That event MUST stop the daily sacrifices. The temple will be polluted and they will need another red heifer without spot or blemish....but war will begin and they will not be able.  I think the vials come late in the last half to shorten the days of GT.

The two witnesses show up in time right where John is introduced to them. I believe that to be 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. They will testify then for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. They will like dead those 3.5 days and be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial that ends the week - with this worst of all earthquakes.

Donkey is simply mistaken on his 3.5 years.

The voices in your head must be bewitching you. 

You say the peace treaty, AoD, and stopping of sacrifices are in Revelation? Where? Oh, that's right the voices in your head told you so. Okay.

The two witnesses show up at the same time as the great multitude in heaven (Ch. 7 -right between the 6th and 7th seal). Now you are contradicting your own teaching. The 2 witnesses are given 3.5 years and very quickly (that same hour) when they are resurrected - Jesus returns. 

Back to Daniel 12...

After the rapture event in 12:1 we are told there will only be 3.5 years (time,times, and half a time). Later it says After the AoD (after the end of verse 9:26), there will be 3.5 years (1290 days + another 45 days). The time frame context for the AoD was first century (that's why there is NO mention of it or a peace treaty in Revelation)- the end of verse 26 which occurs after the cross. The thought process involved there is focused on the end of the OLD covenant and the start of the NEW one. The NEW covenant overlapped with the OLD and there is a dual fulfillment going on in verse 9:26 and 9:27.

[OneLight]

23 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The voices in your head must be bewitching you. 

You say the peace treaty, AoD, and stopping of sacrifices are in Revelation? Where? Oh, that's right the voices in your head told you so. Okay.

 

The above is not necessary.  I am sure you can find a better way of voicing your disapproval than putting someone else down.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Spock, when God first began speaking to me about Revelation, He sent me to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." At that time, He also said I could find the ENTIRE 70th week clearly marked.   This was words that I heard very clearly - like audible voice.  But I suddenly know WHY I could find the entire week clearly marked: God used the same marker for beginning, midpoint and end! That came by revealed knowledge without words.

I found the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. I rushed in my bible to the 7th vial and read, "it is done." I knew then I had the entire week! But I rushed in my bible to the 7th seal and read about the 30 minutes of silence. I thought: what a perfect way to start this period of Jacob's trouble.

Therefore, I am CONVINCED that the week opens with the 7th seal, and that the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint. Between these two points in John's narrative we find the first 6 trumpets. 

I think the AOD will take place when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares HE is the God of the Jews. That event MUST stop the daily sacrifices. The temple will be polluted and they will need another red heifer without spot or blemish....but war will begin and they will not be able.  I think the vials come late in the last half to shorten the days of GT.

The two witnesses show up in time right where John is introduced to them. I believe that to be 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. They will testify then for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. They will like dead those 3.5 days and be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial that ends the week - with this worst of all earthquakes.

Donkey is simply mistaken on his 3.5 years.

LA,

Your timeline makes sense and could be the winning ticket. You can definitely find support for having the 7th trumpet around AOD and it very logical to put the 7th bowl at the end of the week.  The one you will get the most debate I believe will be the timing of the 7th seal.  

I have been touting that line of thinking for the past few years but I have been seeking out other voices/options to test my beliefs with. 

So far, your model is still mine because like you, I too believe the 4 horsemen have ridden. If I can be shown my thinking is in error I can always alter my thinking. I’m flexible like that. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

The above is not necessary.  I am sure you can find a better way of voicing your disapproval than putting someone else down.

My post was "The voices in your head must be bewitching you. 

You say the peace treaty, AoD, and stopping of sacrifices are in Revelation? Where? Oh, that's right the voices in your head told you so. Okay."

 

I am sorry for upsetting you. Have you made the same response to mad teacher? 

 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

LA,

Your timeline makes sense and could be the winning ticket. You can definitely find support for having the 7th trumpet around AOD and it very logical to put the 7th bowl at the end of the week.  The one you will get the most debate I believe will be the timing of the 7th seal.  

I have been touting that line of thinking for the past few years but I have been seeking out other voices/options to test my beliefs with. 

So far, your model is still mine because like you, I too believe the 4 horsemen have ridden. If I can be shown my thinking is in error I can always alter my thinking. I’m flexible like that. 

In fact, there is no real "proof" that the 7th seal opens the week. I will be the first to state that. But then, there are many things in Revelation not stated in so many words that people have believed - such as the rapture hidden in Rev. 4:1.  It makes sense that if God used a 7 for the midpoint and for the end, He would use a 7 for the beginning.  That is about the strongest hint John makes. Truthfully, I knew nothing of the book until God began teaching me.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The voices in your head must be bewitching you. 

You say the peace treaty, AoD, and stopping of sacrifices are in Revelation? Where? Oh, that's right the voices in your head told you so. Okay.

The two witnesses show up at the same time as the great multitude in heaven (Ch. 7 -right between the 6th and 7th seal). Now you are contradicting your own teaching. The 2 witnesses are given 3.5 years and very quickly (that same hour) when they are resurrected - Jesus returns. 

Back to Daniel 12...

After the rapture event in 12:1 we are told there will only be 3.5 years (time,times, and half a time). Later it says After the AoD (after the end of verse 9:26), there will be 3.5 years (1290 days + another 45 days). The time frame context for the AoD was first century (that's why there is NO mention of it or a peace treaty in Revelation)- the end of verse 26 which occurs after the cross. The thought process involved there is focused on the end of the OLD covenant and the start of the NEW one. The NEW covenant overlapped with the OLD and there is a dual fulfillment going on in verse 9:26 and 9:27.

You are jumping to wrong conclusions. I have never said these things.  

The two witnesses show up at the same time as the great multitude in heaven (Ch. 7 -right between the 6th and 7th seal)  Where on earth do you get such things? Certainly not from scripture! The two witnesses show up in Rev. 11:3 and they show up then because verses 1 & 2 are about the man of sin showing up with his Gentile armies. The two witnesses show up because HE shows up. No, John does not identify this: the "voices in my head" told me.  

WHEN do they show up? What time is it in John's narrative in 11:1? John makes a hint that it is 3.5 DAYS before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare He is God. I hope you understand, He cannot enter the temple in Jerusalem if he is in Timbuktu. He must first GET to Jerusalem.  So the two witnesses show up because He showed up. They will testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. Therefore 99.99% of their testimony will be in the last half of the week. .001 % will be in the first half. But this always goes right over your head because you don't believe in the first half.

very quickly (that same hour) when they are resurrected - Jesus returns.   MYTH - unless you can prove this with scripture.

After the rapture event in 12:1   MYTH! Verse 12:1 goes with 12:2-5 and is about Jesus BIRTH. It has ZERO to do with the rapture. 

The time, times and half of time is the time given to the WOMAN - those living in Judea that will flee out into the wilderness - to protect and feed her. 

I disagree with everything in this post. Good job, DSA! Not one thing that the church majority believes in..

Edited March 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

So, it looks like our disagreement is the timing of the trumpets. We both have the rapture as the 6th seal AND the first trumpet. I actually have the dead in Christ raised BEFORE the first trumpet, the first AND second trumpets as the judgment on the "living" (first is living believers raised [6th church]- second is judgment on the disobedient & unbelieving (7th church+rest of the world) being thrown into the 3.5 year tribulation. These first two are "blink of an eye" in time lapse.

After the rapture (ch.10 multitude in heaven & marking of the 144K, ch. 12 Israel protected for 3.5 years). This is when the "war in heaven" occurs. This is where we disagree with the time involved. I have trumpets 3 -5 as happening in NOT more than 1-2 weeks, as the stars are "cast to earth" which refers to the war being over and Satan first casting his followers (1/3 of the angels) down to earth along with himself. The 5th trumpet opens the pit (beginning of the 3.5 year tribulation)(The beast only has 42 months - impossible to be around for an additional 3.5 years AFTER making a peace treaty 3.5 years earlier)(the FIRST 'woe')(the two witnesses begin their 3.5 year ministry)(the 144K are marked)(Ch. 14 is the start of the tribulation)(great multitude is IN heaven- they are the inner court)(the outer court is left-behind for 3.5 years)(the "fallen away" or unworthy church have now taken over the churches - represented as the great whore).

The 6th trumpet (2nd woe) is the whore's 'seat' (quite likely Rome) being judged after a very short stint ("about an hour") riding the beast. Why? Hard to say, maybe the A/C refuses to listen to or accept their theology? Babylon is referenced in Scripture as ROME - 1Peter 5:13.

The 7th trumpet (3rd woe)('1st resurrection' - dead are judged - and the bowl judgments will begin)(the temple in heaven is opened to reveal that the "ark of his testament"/ the true believers are inside of it or, in other words, are/were all ready in heaven- Heb 11:7) is when Jesus returns and takes control. Rev 11:15-17 specifies it as happening at this time. 

The bowls are poured out (in order) for the remaining 45 days before the Millennium begins. The (1) earth, (2) sea, (3) fresh waters, (4) sun, (5) seat of the beast, (6) all remaining water is dried up to make way for the hordes now incensed about what Jesus is doing, and finally the 7th poured into the "air". Seems even many of the left-behind church (Babylon and/or Jerusalem) still refuse to repent or change their theology made of man-made doctrines. They probably still believe they will be the ones to usher in the Millennium instead of Jesus. Maybe, they even see Jesus arrive in Jerusalem 3.5 years AFTER the rapture and assume He is the A/C? (Not a real question)

So, it looks like our disagreement is the timing of the trumpets. We both have the rapture as the 6th seal AND the first trumpet.  Not quite: the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY - which begins at the 6th seal. So not AT the 6th seal, but BEFORE it. The 6th seal begins wrath. We won't be here.

Next, there will be only microseconds between the dead in Christ rising (causing a great earthquake) and those alive and in Christ being caught up. They will just begin to feel the quake and they are GONE! The rest of your first paragraph came right out of human imagination. The trumpets are the start of JUDGMENT in the DAY of the Lord. By the first trumpet, the rapture will be history.

You are rearranging John's God given chronology. Your theory will be proven wrong. The war in heaven will not come until the 7th trumpet - exactly as John has written it. Why change it? 

I cannot take any more. Your write good fiction - but I am not into fiction.

[Steve_S]

3 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The voices in your head must be bewitching you. 

You say the peace treaty, AoD, and stopping of sacrifices are in Revelation? Where? Oh, that's right the voices in your head told you so. Okay.

The two witnesses show up at the same time as the great multitude in heaven (Ch. 7 -right between the 6th and 7th seal). Now you are contradicting your own teaching. The 2 witnesses are given 3.5 years and very quickly (that same hour) when they are resurrected - Jesus returns. 

Back to Daniel 12...

After the rapture event in 12:1 we are told there will only be 3.5 years (time,times, and half a time). Later it says After the AoD (after the end of verse 9:26), there will be 3.5 years (1290 days + another 45 days). The time frame context for the AoD was first century (that's why there is NO mention of it or a peace treaty in Revelation)- the end of verse 26 which occurs after the cross. The thought process involved there is focused on the end of the OLD covenant and the start of the NEW one. The NEW covenant overlapped with the OLD and there is a dual fulfillment going on in verse 9:26 and 9:27.

Poster removed from thread.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

Poster removed from thread.

Hi Steve. First off, I want to thank you for everything you do for us here on this discussion board.

I understand what you did but I’m pretty sure Donkey meant no harm. I think he was probably just being funny and not measuring his words properly.  He has always been a good guy to converse with....I think he just made this one unintentional mistake which I’m sure he regrets.  He adds a lot to our discussions and is interesting to talk with.  He has challenged us all with his beliefs. 

I hope you can reconsider your penalty and consider a 3 day suspension instead.  I started this thread and I would very much like to continue to read his perspective here.  In addition, maybe if you allow him to publicly apologize, assuming he is willing to confess his insensitive words, this can restore fellowship here Christ’s way (forgive us our sins, as we forgive others...).  Just a thought. I trust your judgment and experience to do what is best.  I hope I’m not out of place here. 

Thanks for listening,

spock

Edited March 2, 2019 by Spock

[Revelation Man]

There is only so much one can say on an issue, then it just gets to be a repetitive sort of butting heads. I hear the Holy Spirit also, but the bible is the Word of God or God's ESSENCE, He gives us our roadmap via the bible. We are told plainly that the 70th week starts and that in the middle of the week is when all the action starts. It's pretty simple really, people tend to overthink and over complicate the timing because they think that Revelation has to be in order, well go read Daniel, it is not in Chronological Order either.

There is no need for further "INSTRUCTION" when we already have instruction. Its clear everything starts in the Middle of the Week, God's Wrath starts in the Middle of the Week. Not at the Sixth Seal. It goes against everything God stands for to start something out of sync. 

The mistake that is made is not understanding the Seals RELEASE the Judgments, it's not like the First Seal is opened and everything the Anti-Christ does happens in an instant, the First Four Seals are a RELEASE POINT of what he is going to do, its like me opening the Gates for the Horses at the Kentucky Derby, its not telling us anything about the Race, only about what is being RELEASED. The Race has to happen to get the story In full. 

So the First Seal releases a Conquering Warrior, then he goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus arrives !! It's not like the First Seal happens and we have to wait for it to end, then the Second Seal is opened. You see, that is why the Seals are different from the Trumpet Judgments, the Seal Judgments RELEASE the Anti-Christ to go forth sowing his wicked ways without a WITHHOLDER vIa the Holy Spirit stopping him. 

First Seal....................The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus Returns.

Second Seal.................The Anti-Christ takes peace from the earth for 3.5 years until Jesus Returns

Third Seal...................The Anti-Christs wars bring starvation/famine to the earth, no doubt until Jesus Returns.

Fourth Seal.................The Anti-Christ of course kills many, so Death and Hades/Grave are in abundance until Jesus Returns.

Fifth Seal.....................The Deaths that result from the Anti-Christ tyrannical rule. 

Sixth Seal....................The Lord God Announces His Wrath is open mankind. 

 

I still think no one gets the facts here, all of the Seals are basically opened simultaneously, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing............No one has to wait on each one to come to pass, thus the Sixth Seal is basically at the Midway Point, as are the other 5 Seals that are opened. So the whole argument about the Sixth Seal is a moot point to start with. They are all opened at basically the same time on earth. Then the 7th Seal is opened only after the Jews have reached the safety of the Petra/Bozrah area. 

The Anti-Christ then goes Forth for 3.5 years...............God's Judgment on earth lasts 3.5 years. God gives mankind the ruler their hearts desired. Then God starts pelting the Earth with more Judgments.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Revelation Man