The "Day of the Lord: Where in Revelation does it begin?

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

One day, maybe after you arrive in heaven, you will find your prewrath theories were bogus all along. You COULD learn it now. But then you will know it for sure!  Thanks for the home run! I needed that. Continue on being LIGHT! ;-)

 

It's pretty simple when you just put things were God says they go instead drawing incorrect conclusions because you don't understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the 12 tribes as God turns His attention to His people once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is out of the picture pre trib, pre 70th week. Then the 12 tribes are raptured prewrath at the end of the 70th week. Then there are time, times, and half a time left.

BTW, It's The Light. The only reason I mention it is that there is another poster with LIGHT as his name.

Anyway, great job. That ball was so well hit, it may cross the ocean.

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, The Light said:

It's pretty simple when you just put things were God says they go instead drawing incorrect conclusions because you don't understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the 12 tribes as God turns His attention to His people once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is out of the picture pre trib, pre 70th week. Then the 12 tribes are raptured prewrath at the end of the 70th week. Then there are time, times, and half a time left.

BTW, It's The Light. The only reason I mention it is that there is another poster with LIGHT as his name.

Anyway, great job. That ball was so well hit, it may cross the ocean.

If it is pretty simple, then why are you so far off? ;-) I DO put things where God says - or rather, LEAVE them where God puts them: case in point: God has the days of GT starting at the end of chapter 14 and into chapter 15, while you imagine they are in the seals! God left the seals as church age and you move them forward in time to our future! I certainly believe the 70th week is for DANIEL's people: the ENTIRE week: from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

The Church is out of the picture pre trib, pre 70th week.  Again we agree: but we don't agree on WHERE the 70th week is in Revelation. 

Then the 12 tribes are raptured prewrath at the end of the 70th week.  How can that be when John starts the Day of His wrath before any part of the 70th week? I too believe the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will be at the 7th vial and ends the week. 

Oh, THE LIGHT: I did not know of another.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Yes

I could agree: He WILL come WITH the Day of the Lord, but it will be His coming as stated in 1 thes. 4: His coming FOR His saints - as opposed to His coming WITH His saints as seen in Rev. 19. I think He comes to the air, calls up the Dead in Christ, then an instant later those who are alive are caught up, and then an instant later it is the Day of the Lord: the church age will have ended. All this would be at the 6th seal. 

[Revelation Man]

On 7/7/2020 at 11:55 AM, SONshine said:

Before I go, just one more scripture for you to consider, brother. 

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

So, this should prove to you that the Day of the Lord starts with God's Wrath AND lasts for 1000 years, because it will also see this earth turned into Hell after the 1000 year reign, once we get our New Jerusalem. The Day of the Lord doesn't see this earth melting away until Jesus 1000 year reign is up. 

The Day of the Lord God's Wrath begins with His Judgments and lasts through his 1000 year Reign. Think of it like this. A day with God is like a thousand years. Satan got to reign for 6 days, Jesus will reign on the 7th day and that thousand years will be like unto the Sabbath 1000 years. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

If it is pretty simple, then why are you so far off? ;-) I DO put things where God says - or rather, LEAVE them where God puts them: case in point: God has the days of GT starting at the end of chapter 14 and into chapter 15, while you imagine they are in the seals!

I agree with you that the great tribulation is in Chapter 15. We see those that had gotten victory over the beast, and they sang the song of Moses (because they are of the 12 tribes)

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

As far as the great tribulation being at the end of Rev 14, that is not correct. The great tribulation is in the middle of Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And in the 5th seal we see the same great tribulation.

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So let me repeat. These guys:

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Are these guys:

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But if you will notice, you won't see the great tribulation happening during the trumpets or during vials. When you see the great tribulation in Rev 14 it is after the 7th trump. (wrath is over) (Wrath begins 1st trumpet, wrath ends 7th trumpet). Then you get another view of the great tribulation and then "A" rapture happens.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

That's the same rapture that happens in Matt 24. It is also the same repture that happens in Rev 6 at the 6th seal.

Then you get to see both the beginning of wrath and the end of wrath at the end of Rev 14

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Wrath begins)

²⁰ And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (Wrath ends)

Then you see those in Rev 15 that came out of the great tribulation. And then the 7 angels with the 7 vials do their thing. (wrath begins 1st vial) (wrath ends 7th vial)

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

God left the seals as church age and you move them forward in time to our future!

I'm not sure what you mean. However, the Church age is over before any seals are opened. (See Rev 5) The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. At the end of the week the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured. Then the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I certainly believe the 70th week is for DANIEL's people: the ENTIRE week: from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

Chapter 13 and 14 put you back in the seals. We also see the great tribulation in chapter 15, which is the same thing you see in the middle of Rev 15 and at the 5th seal. One of these days the light is going to go on. You will realize that you are looking at the 70th week in the 1st 6 seals. Then the wrath of God begins at the 1st trumpet and ends at the 7th trumpet. Then you are taken back to the 70th week. Then you see the wrath of God begin and end at the end of Rev 14. Then you see those that came out of great tribulation in Rev 15. Then you see the vials where the wrath of God begins with the 1st vial and ends with the 7th vial.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The Church is out of the picture pre trib, pre 70th week.  Again we agree: but we don't agree on WHERE the 70th week is in Revelation. 

Work on that will you. I just laid it out for you.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Then the 12 tribes are raptured prewrath at the end of the 70th week.  How can that be when John starts the Day of His wrath before any part of the 70th week?

It can be because the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant and the rider on the white horse, a false Christ going forth conquering and to conquer. Then the 70th week ends with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same coming of Jesus in Matt 24, Which is the same coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I too believe the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will be at the 7th vial and ends the week. 

The week is over at the 6th seal and then the time, times and half wrath begins with the 1st trump and ends with the 7th trump. Want to see it again. The wrath of begin and ends at the end of Rev 14. Wanna see it again. The wrath of God begins at the 1st vial and ends at the last vial.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, THE LIGHT: I did not know of another.

The is also a OneLight.

I provided all the scriptures that you need to see the truth. The tribulation (70th week) is over before the wrath of God begins.

[iamlamad]

44 minutes ago, The Light said:

I agree with you that the great tribulation is in Chapter 15. We see those that had gotten victory over the beast, and they sang the song of Moses (because they are of the 12 tribes)

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

As far as the great tribulation being at the end of Rev 14, that is not correct. The great tribulation is in the middle of Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And in the 5th seal we see the same great tribulation.

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So let me repeat. These guys:

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Are these guys:

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But if you will notice, you won't see the great tribulation happening during the trumpets or during vials. When you see the great tribulation in Rev 14 it is after the 7th trump. (wrath is over) (Wrath begins 1st trumpet, wrath ends 7th trumpet). Then you get another view of the great tribulation and then "A" rapture happens.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

That's the same rapture that happens in Matt 24. It is also the same repture that happens in Rev 6 at the 6th seal.

Then you get to see both the beginning of wrath and the end of wrath at the end of Rev 14

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Wrath begins)

²⁰ And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (Wrath ends)

Then you see those in Rev 15 that came out of the great tribulation. And then the 7 angels with the 7 vials do their thing. (wrath begins 1st vial) (wrath ends 7th vial)

I'm not sure what you mean. However, the Church age is over before any seals are opened. (See Rev 5) The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. At the end of the week the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured. Then the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Chapter 13 and 14 put you back in the seals. We also see the great tribulation in chapter 15, which is the same thing you see in the middle of Rev 15 and at the 5th seal. One of these days the light is going to go on. You will realize that you are looking at the 70th week in the 1st 6 seals. Then the wrath of God begins at the 1st trumpet and ends at the 7th trumpet. Then you are taken back to the 70th week. Then you see the wrath of God begin and end at the end of Rev 14. Then you see those that came out of great tribulation in Rev 15. Then you see the vials where the wrath of God begins with the 1st vial and ends with the 7th vial.

Work on that will you. I just laid it out for you.

It can be because the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant and the rider on the white horse, a false Christ going forth conquering and to conquer. Then the 70th week ends with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same coming of Jesus in Matt 24, Which is the same coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

The week is over at the 6th seal and then the time, times and half wrath begins with the 1st trump and ends with the 7th trump. Want to see it again. The wrath of begin and ends at the end of Rev 14. Wanna see it again. The wrath of God begins at the 1st vial and ends at the last vial.

The is also a OneLight.

I provided all the scriptures that you need to see the truth. The tribulation (70th week) is over before the wrath of God begins.

All you have done is write more things I must disagree with. Sorry, but you KNOW I don't rearrange Revelation. Further, I know that any theory that does will be proven wrong. 

[The Light]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

All you have done is write more things I must disagree with. Sorry, but you KNOW I don't rearrange Revelation. Further, I know that any theory that does will be proven wrong. 

I don't rearrange it either. The week begins, the week ends. Wrath begins wrath ends. Wanna see it again? The events are in the week. The week ends and wrath begins. Then wrath ends. Wanna see it again? We are in the week. The week ends and wrath begins, and then ends. No rearranging necessary. Wake up.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

6th seal - 7th trump. No, they cannot be together. The seals are sealing the book that contains the trumpets. There are two other possibilities: God gets angry and gets over it quickly, and nothing happens. Then gets angry again and stuff happens. I don't believe this scenario. The other possibility: God the Father gets angry and the Day of His wrath begins: 6th seal - and he is STILL angry at the 7th trumpet because after all the trumpet judgments people refuse to repent. See how simply this can be solved?

That just ignores evidence. It feels like a bit of thrashing about and not logic.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrath is said to come at both the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. No. It appears that way in English. I will remind you again what Strong's tells us of he Aorist tense verbs:

"Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered
without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for
this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations."

 

I loathe this sort of tactic. It relies on minutiae and not normal reading. But since you insist...

I've looked at the topic of the aorist verbs and you and most others are way off. You tend to pull the idea of the aorist that suits your purpose and present it like you've just captured your enemy's banner. The view of the aorist you posted above is simplistic and a very small part of the whole truth. Do some actual reading about the forms of this verb and it's usage before posting stuff like the above.

In a general sense the aorist is not concerned with duration of time and not, as most in the pretrib camp would have us believe, a tenseless verb. That is even apparent in the portion you highlighted above. The aorist is does not convey duration and is, for the most part a single event verb. "I walked." is a good example yet we have no idea when it happened or how long it took. 

There are many resources you can use to look into the aorist. Here's a sample:

"While both the IMPERFECT and AORIST tenses refer to past actions, and so are past tenses, they differ in ASPECT. The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the most common tense for referring to action in the past. The IMPERFECT tense always conveys past activity that was more than a single action in some way (i.e. ongoing aspect)."

Aorist Tense

Then depending on perspective and mood we know if the action has just occurred or occurred in the past, as a singular event. The verb in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is not imperfect but aorist, and is indicative active 3rd person singular which shows an event that has just occurred as a one off. 

" The Aorist is a tense that implies completed or single-point action. When used as the main verb, with the augment e)- before the verb stem, it signals completed action in the past."

Dr Shirley

In the case of 'ēlthen' in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 the e) argument is present designating a single action that occurred in the past. When in the past we have no idea; it could have just occurred since as I write these words they are already the past. This means Rev 11:18 wrath only happens once and is a completed action so the argument it happens twice is refuted as the verb is aorist not imperfect. 

Then what we are seeing is a moment in time, the sign of the beginning, and not a view of some long campaign; since we know from other scripture the whole of God's wrath has duration. So then it's not the entire gauntlet of wrath in view but the moment wrath begins. And it begins once at the the 6th seal and 7th trumpet.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

is also the last trump from 1 Cor 15:52,  Some people believe this. I don't. One is the trump of God, the other is sounded by an angel. One is the last trump of one series, the other is the last trump of another series. On Paul's last trump the rapture takes place. On the other last trump or 7th trump the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus. This means TWO DIFFERENT "last trumps," one actually called that in scripture, for two different purposes and coming at two different times. Just because one finds similar words does not mean two verses fit together. We must consider TIME, and the the context of each verse. An example: someone saw "ten" virgins, and "ten" kings so they have to be the same thing. How silly is that?

And what 'another series' would that be? Since there is no other series of trumps in all of scripture the only conclusion that can be drawn is the last trump is the last in the known series of trumps; and since the last trump is associated with the end of the age and the gathering, and the 7 trumps are also end of the age the last trump is the 7th trump. No amount of logical gymnastics can overcome this.

Where is the evidence of two 'last trumps'? There isn't any. You are defending an indefensible proposition; it lacks evidence.

Dude, one word by itself is not the solution. When an entire string is similar then we have to think it's similar. You make it sound like a sign that says 'No Parking' means something different on 110th St. East than when it's posted downtown. 

 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 How is anyone (even God) going to read and bring to pass something written inside the scroll or book before all the seals are opened: it is impossible. 

I don't know why you persist in this. Scriptural evidence disputes your position.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider goes forth before

"he had opened the second seal".

We see Jesus open a seal and reveal something. Then another seal is opened and something else is revealed. How is Jesus seeing, or reading, or revealing, or releasing, something at each seal before the next seal is opened if all the seals must be opened before He can look inside the scroll? 

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That just ignores evidence. It feels like a bit of thrashing about and not logic.

I loathe this sort of tactic. It relies on minutiae and not normal reading. But since you insist...

I've looked at the topic of the aorist verbs and you and most others are way off. You tend to pull the idea of the aorist that suits your purpose and present it like you've just captured your enemy's banner. The view of the aorist you posted above is simplistic and a very small part of the whole truth. Do some actual reading about the forms of this verb and it's usage before posting stuff like the above.

In a general sense the aorist is not concerned with duration of time and not, as most in the pretrib camp would have us believe, a tenseless verb. That is even apparent in the portion you highlighted above. The aorist is does not convey duration and is, for the most part a single event verb. "I walked." is a good example yet we have no idea when it happened or how long it took. 

There are many resources you can use to look into the aorist. Here's a sample:

"While both the IMPERFECT and AORIST tenses refer to past actions, and so are past tenses, they differ in ASPECT. The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the most common tense for referring to action in the past. The IMPERFECT tense always conveys past activity that was more than a single action in some way (i.e. ongoing aspect)."

Aorist Tense

Then depending on perspective and mood we know if the action has just occurred or occurred in the past, as a singular event. The verb in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is not imperfect but aorist, and is indicative active 3rd person singular which shows an event that has just occurred as a one off. 

" The Aorist is a tense that implies completed or single-point action. When used as the main verb, with the augment e)- before the verb stem, it signals completed action in the past."

Dr Shirley

 

 

\

 

that occurred in the pn tast. When in the past we have no idea; it could have just occurred since as I write these words they are already the past. This means Rev 11:18 wrath only happens once and is a completed action so the argument it happens twice is refuted as the verb is aorist not imperfect. 

Then what we are seeing is a moment in time, the sign of the beginning, and not a view of some long campaign; since we know from other scripture the whole of God's wrath has duration. So then it's not the entire gauntlet of wrath in view but the moment wrath begins. And it begins once at the the 6th seal and 7th trumpet.

And what 'another series' would that be? Since there is no other series of trumps in all of scripture the only conclusion that can be drawn is the last trump is the last in the known series of trumps; and since the last trump is associated with the end of the age and the gathering, and the 7 trumps are also end of the age the last trump is the 7th trump. No amount of logical gymnastics can overcome this.

Where is the evidence of two 'last trumps'? There isn't any. You are defending an indefensible proposition; it lacks evidence.

Dude, one word by itself is not the solution. When an entire string is similar then we have to think it's similar. You make it sound like a sign that says 'No Parking' means something different on 110th St. East than when it's posted downtown. 

I don't know why you persist in this. Scriptural evidence disputes your position.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider goes forth before

"he had opened the second seal".

We see Jesus open a seal and reveal something. Then another seal is opened and something else is revealed. How is Jesus seeing, or reading, or revealing, or releasing, something at each seal before the next seal is opened if all the seals must be opened before He can look inside the scroll? 

If you wish for wrath to start at the midpoint of the week, 7th trumpet - GO FOR IT. But what in the world will you do with all the evidence that wrath and the Day of His wrath starts at the 6th seal? 

As you have seen, even the Greek experts don't agree on the Aorist tense. I think Strong's is perhaps the best of the experts. However, if you like a action that started in the past, then it started right where John told us: at the 6th seal. The problem is, the starting at the 6th seal is the same Aorist tense verb! So what can you do with that? Start His wrath twice?

From the Old Testament, we learn that God's purpose in the Day of the Lord is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. Then when we examine the trumpet judgments, what do we see? We see God destroying the world and the sinners in the world. Therefore there is amply evidence that God's wrath starts at the FIRST MENTION of wrath: the 6th seal. If you wish to ignore this evidence, go for it; but you will be wrong.

Argue or disagree all you want: if you insist the first seal is NOT the church taking the gospel to the world, you will be in error, plain and simple. If you insist that seal is future, you will be in error. It was opened around 32 or 33 AD when Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands.

This is so simple: there is a STRIP of parchment that when a seal is opened, ONE STRIP of parchment can be unrolled and what is written inside could be read. That is just one possibility. I made a scroll like that one time when I was teaching. I could break a seal, unroll just that seal, and hold it up for the church to see writing: I wrote: FIRST SEAL in big letters. 

HOWEVER, the seals are not as important as what they are sealing: THE BOOK! DOn't take my word for it: READ:

Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Read these and tell us all which seems most important: the seals or the book. 

As for trumps, Paul was a JEW. Every year they held the first of trumpets where a hundred trumpet blasts would sound. The to close the feast, one LONG trumpet blast: called "the last trump." This Feast of trumpets is the ONLY Jewish feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour." Why is this? What if it is cloudy? The two witnesses needed will not see the sun that morning, so the Feast must be put off a day. the High Priest needs TWO WITNESSES to report that they both saw the tiny sliver of a new moon. Then, and only then, after two witnesses, would the High Priest officially start the feast.  Therefore, we have TWO pieces of evidences: 

1. No man knows the day nor the hour
2. "the last trump."

It is OK if you insist the 7th trumpet is Paul's last trump: you will just be in error again.

by the way, THANKS. You helped me find this: It is as good as any in describing Aorist verbs:

 

has come
ἦλθεν [ēlthen] , aorist tense which normally denotes past time. The day has already come in the opening of the sixth seal. God’s wrath is being poured out prior to the seventh seal (which initiates the seven trumpet judgments). This contradicts the pre-wrath rapture view which holds that the seals represent “Man’s wrath through Antichrist” [emphasis added]⁴ . While it is true that the aorist tense can be used to describe a future event (proleptic),⁵ it is more often used of actions which have already transpired.⁶ Advocates of the pre-wrath rapture view argue that the pronouncement associated with the sixth seal is anticipatory of the wrath of God, and not in reaction to it.⁷ Since the aorist can represent events either in the past or future, the form of the verb itself (aorist) cannot settle the matter. Instead, the context must indicate which meaning is in view. The use of this same word within the larger context of the book of Revelation argues for understanding has come as denoting a past or present event which has just arrived.

Mention of this specific aorist form rendered has come (ἦλθεν [ēlthen] ) in the book of Revelation, include the following:

1. “Then He came and took the scroll” (Rev. Rev. 5:7+).
2. “For the great day of His wrath has come” (Rev. Rev. 6:17+).
3. “Another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.” (Rev. Rev. 8:3+).
4. “The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come” (Rev. Rev. 11:18+).
5. “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come” (Rev. Rev. 14:7+).
6. “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap” (Rev. Rev. 14:15+).
7. “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came” (Rev. Rev. 17:1+).
8. “Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come” (Rev. Rev. 17:10+). (It is important in this instance to observe that ἦλθεν [ēlthen] merely denotes come. The future aspect of the statement, not yet, comes from another word (οὔπω [oupō] .)
9. “That great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come” (Rev. Rev. 18:10+).
10. “Rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come” (Rev. Rev. 19:7+).
11. “One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me” (Rev. Rev. 21:9+).

 

In each of these cases, the verb describes something in the past, in the present, or in the immediate future—having “just now” come. John 13:31; Mtt. Mat. 3:17; 1Cor. 1Cor. 4:18).”⁸ In none of its appearances in Revelation is it rendered by the translators as a true future tense (e.g., shall come, will come, is coming).

The pre-wrath rapture view requires its use here to be anticipatory over a period—spanning the events of the next chapter where the 144,000 are sealed and a multitude of martyrs are revealed—reaching until the seventh seal is loosed (Rev. Rev. 8:1+). Within the larger context of the book of Revelation this verb form does not denote what pre-wrath rapture proponents require. The most that can be said is that in some cases it describes an event which is “just now” happening, on the boundary between the present and the future (e.g., the impending destruction of Babylon in Rev. Rev. 18:10+, the arrival of the marriage of the Lamb in Rev. Rev. 19:7+).

The only time an aorist indicative speaks of something future or something about to happen, however, is if it is a dramatic aorist (H. E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament [New York: Macmillan, 1927], p. 198), a futuristic aorist (BDF, par. 333 [2]), or a proleptic aorist (Nigel Turner, Syntax, vol. 3 of A Grammar of New Testament Greek [Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1963], p. 74). Some contextual feature must be present to indicate clearly these exceptional usages. No such feature exists in the context of the sixth seal, so these special uses are not options here. . . . The verb in Rev. Rev. 6:17+ must be a constantative aorist looking back in time to the point in the past when the great day of wrath arrived.⁹

When we examine the immediate context of this passage—the seismic and astronomical disturbances—we find that Isaiah elsewhere attributes these phenomena as being part of the Day of the Lord:

Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, upon everything lifted up-And it shall be brought low—upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan; upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up; upon every high tower, and upon every fortified wall; upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all the beautiful sloops. The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, but the idols He shall utterly abolish. They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver and his idols of gold, which they made, each for himself to worship, to the moles and bats, To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the crags of the rugged rocks, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. (Isa. Isa. 2:10-21) [emphasis added]

Isaiah tells us that in that day, not before the day, men will hide in holes of the rocks and caves.¹⁰ They are hiding from the terror of the LORD when He arises to shake the earth mightily. Their hiding is not anticipatory, but reactionary. In other words, the events of the sixth seal are part of the Day of the Lord.

The reaction of the unbelieving world to the terrors unleashed by the sixth seal will not be one of repentance (cf. Rev. Rev. 9:21+; Rev. 16:11+), but of mindless panic. They will finally acknowledge what believers have been saying all along, that the disasters they have experienced are God’s judgment. [emphasis added]¹¹

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-6/revelation-6-17.html

I concur with this author.

Added later: Note the very same Aorist Active indicative used for an event SOON to come:

 Mar 14:41

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

This confirms what Strong's tells us: you just cannot tell "time" from an Aorist verb.

Edited July 8, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you wish for wrath to start at the midpoint of the week, 7th trumpet - GO FOR IT. But what in the world will you do with all the evidence that wrath and the Day of His wrath starts at the 6th seal? 

As you have seen, even the Greek experts don't agree on the Aorist tense. I think Strong's is perhaps the best of the experts. However, if you like a action that started in the past, then it started right where John told us: at the 6th seal. The problem is, the starting at the 6th seal is the same Aorist tense verb! So what can you do with that? Start His wrath twice?

From the Old Testament, we learn that God's purpose in the Day of the Lord is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. Then when we examine the trumpet judgments, what do we see? We see God destroying the world and the sinners in the world. Therefore there is amply evidence that God's wrath starts at the FIRST MENTION of wrath: the 6th seal. If you wish to ignore this evidence, go for it; but you will be wrong.

Wrath does not actually begin at the sixth seal. The 6th seal is the sign of his coming and the terror of the people in the understanding that Christ is here and is bringing wrath. This isn't hard to understand. 

No we do not start wrath twice. The simplest solution is the the 6th seal is the sign of Jesus' coming and the 7th trump(last trump) is the gathering and wrath and both occur in conjunction. Then we don't have to conjure a bunch of stuff that isn't written.

The problem has always been equating the events of the trumps with wrath; they are not. Only the vials are called wrath. To equate wrath with either the seals or the trumps is not biblical. It's a dogmatic doctrinal assumption at best and it's incorrect. 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Argue or disagree all you want: if you insist the first seal is NOT the church taking the gospel to the world, you will be in error, plain and simple. If you insist that seal is future, you will be in error. It was opened around 32 or 33 AD when Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands.

Yeah...no.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is so simple: there is a STRIP of parchment that when a seal is opened, ONE STRIP of parchment can be unrolled and what is written inside could be read. That is just one possibility. I made a scroll like that one time when I was teaching. I could break a seal, unroll just that seal, and hold it up for the church to see writing: I wrote: FIRST SEAL in big letters. 

HOWEVER, the seals are not as important as what they are sealing: THE BOOK! DOn't take my word for it: READ:

Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

This is just more thrashing about. It's clear that the seals are opened one at a time and when a seal is opened out pops a condition or an event. But I no longer care.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Read these and tell us all which seems most important: the seals or the book. 

As for trumps, Paul was a JEW. Every year they held the first of trumpets where a hundred trumpet blasts would sound. The to close the feast, one LONG trumpet blast: called "the last trump." This Feast of trumpets is the ONLY Jewish feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour." Why is this? What if it is cloudy? The two witnesses needed will not see the sun that morning, so the Feast must be put off a day. the High Priest needs TWO WITNESSES to report that they both saw the tiny sliver of a new moon. Then, and only then, after two witnesses, would the High Priest officially start the feast.  Therefore, we have TWO pieces of evidences: 

This is tradition and has nothing to do with what the bible says; "The LORD also said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts.  You must not do any regular work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD." - Lev 23

This is it and it's not related to the end of the age Jesus' coming nor the gathering. Paul is speaking directly to the gathering in 1 Cor 15; " We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 

I don't think it's reasonable to equate the two. There is literally no similar language. The only last trump we know of concerning the gathering at the end of the age is the 7th trump. It's the last in the only specified series of trumps, all sounded in order, and all in Revelation. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

has come
ἦλθεν [ēlthen] , aorist tense which normally denotes past time. The day has already come in the opening of the sixth seal. God’s wrath is being poured out prior to the seventh seal (which initiates the seven trumpet judgments). This contradicts the pre-wrath rapture view which holds that the seals represent “Man’s wrath through Antichrist” [emphasis added]⁴ . While it is true that the aorist tense can be used to describe a future event (proleptic),⁵ it is more often used of actions which have already transpired.⁶ Advocates of the pre-wrath rapture view argue that the pronouncement associated with the sixth seal is anticipatory of the wrath of God, and not in reaction to it.⁷ Since the aorist can represent events either in the past or future, the form of the verb itself (aorist) cannot settle the matter. Instead, the context must indicate which meaning is in view. The use of this same word within the larger context of the book of Revelation

 

argues for understanding has come as denoting a past or present event which has just arrived.

 

The portion I emphasized above is consistent with what I have been saying. The problem you have to deal with it the aorist is the same indicative active 3rd person singular in Rev 6:17 as it is in Rev 11:18

This means at both the 6th seal and 7th trump wrath has just arrived. Though that isn't quite right either. The complete wrath of God has many events and a period of duration. what we see at the 6th seal and the 7th trump isn't that, it's akin to the opening bell or the umps call, "Play ball." The time has come to begin, and that is both present and immediate past, and the events of which wrath consists and is played out, the conditions and physical hardships commences in the vials. 

What I think pretrib likes to do is shoehorn the imperfect verb into Rev 11:18 so it denotes 'ongoing action'. But that isn't the case, it's the same aorist aspect or tense; the indicative active 3rd person singular, as in Rev 6:17.

This shows wrath begins once and it is depicted at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump which means the 6th seal and 7th trump happen near to each other.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Mention of this specific aorist form rendered has come (ἦλθεν [ēlthen] ) in the book of Revelation, include the following:

1. “Then He came and took the scroll” (Rev. Rev. 5:7+).
2. “For the great day of His wrath has come” (Rev. Rev. 6:17+).
3. “Another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.” (Rev. Rev. 8:3+).
4. “The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come” (Rev. Rev. 11:18+).
5. “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come” (Rev. Rev. 14:7+).
6. “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap” (Rev. Rev. 14:15+).
7. “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came” (Rev. Rev. 17:1+).
8. “Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come” (Rev. Rev. 17:10+). (It is important in this instance to observe that ἦλθεν [ēlthen] merely denotes come. The future aspect of the statement, not yet, comes from another word (οὔπω [oupō] .)
9. “That great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come” (Rev. Rev. 18:10+).
10. “Rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come” (Rev. Rev. 19:7+).
11. “One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me” (Rev. Rev. 21:9+).

 

In each of these cases, the verb describes something in the past, in the present, or in the immediate future—having “just now” come. John 13:31; Mtt. Mat. 3:17; 1Cor. 1Cor. 4:18).”⁸ In none of its appearances in Revelation is it rendered by the translators as a true future tense (e.g., shall come, will come, is coming).

The pre-wrath rapture view requires its use here to be anticipatory over a period—spanning the events of the next chapter where the 144,000 are sealed and a multitude of martyrs are revealed—reaching until the seventh seal is loosed (Rev. Rev. 8:1+). Within the larger context of the book of Revelation this verb form does not denote what pre-wrath rapture proponents require. The most that can be said is that in some cases it describes an event which is “just now” happening, on the boundary between the present and the future (e.g., the impending destruction of Babylon in Rev. Rev. 18:10+, the arrival of the marriage of the Lamb in Rev. Rev. 19:7+).

 

I find the conclusions above about prewrath to be unfair and inaccurate. I haven't read any eschatological literature of any stripe since the late 90's so it's possible the doctrine has changed. If it has it was unnecessary. The text as translated and the parsing of the text both show wrath to have just arrived, and in both Rev 6:17 and 11:18; which support a prewrath view on the gathering. 

"The most that can be said is that in some cases it describes an event which is “just now” happening, on the boundary between the present and the future"

And on the boundary of the immediate past and present and is literally the prewrath view, and mine.

 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Added later: Note the very same Aorist Active indicative used for an event SOON to come:

 Mar 14:41

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

This confirms what Strong's tells us: you just cannot tell "time" from an Aorist verb.

This supports what I have been saying. This is the betrayal, not the arrest. The betrayal by Judas occurred before the arrest when he agreed to identify Jesus with a kiss and took the coin. The arrest came later. In the same way when wrath begins it is announced first, per Matt 24 and Rev 6, then the actions of wrath begin and continue to the end.