Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Last Daze]

38 minutes ago, Zemke said:

So, are you saying that if a believer doesn't see this preponderance of evidence you say exists but has seen the coming of Jesus differently, they have darkness in them, great darkness? 

The litmus test for salvation being a belief in pre-trib?

That's the direction that some pretribbers seem to be twisting their eschatology.  First, it was "we'll all go at the same time regardless" then some adopted the "non-pretribbers will be left behind" stance and now some are morphing it into a salvation issue.  Sad really, but predictable.

Like I said in the previous post, everything will be revealed in His time.  May those who believe in Jesus endure and persevere until the last trumpet sounds on the last day, as we are exhorted to.

[JustPassingThru]

5 hours ago, Zemke said:

So, are you saying that if a believer doesn't see this preponderance of evidence you say exists but has seen the coming of Jesus differently, they have darkness in them, great darkness? 

No, I'm saying they are going to be embarrassed when they are Raptured before the Tribulation!

[seeking the lost]

On 4/8/2019 at 5:47 PM, HAZARD said:

Scripture teaches that there has been one rapture already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

The term Rapture or catching away refers to a specific event.  It is not like the ascension of Jesus or of the two witnesses.  Take a look at the Thessalonians passage with me.  This was written to help those who would read the letter to not worry about the dead, particularly the dead in Christ.  This gives the order of the catching away.   These are words of encouragement.  The order is the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive and remain.  We the living will not preceed them.  The living will not be caught away until all those who have died in Christ have been raise.

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It is important to listen to the words of Jesus concerning those who believe in Him.  Jesus said, 

John 6:38-40 King James Version (KJV)

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believers will be raised up on the last day.  Last indicates a day after which there are no more days.  That is the time of the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years.  The rest of the dead spoken of in Rev. 20 includes sheep and goats.  I believe the dead in Christ who are not raised in the first resurrection will be raised at this time and the catching away follows.  We will not proceed them. 

Look closely at Rev.20 concerning the resurrections.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Notice the specific list of those who are raised at this point.  To qualify for this resurrection you have to have been beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God,  Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark of the beast.  These are raised.  No one else is raised at this point.  If you wish to add to the list there is some warning about adding stuff if you recall.  The rest of the dead will include those who have fallen asleep in Christ.  That is the second resurrection.

[HAZARD]

3 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The term Rapture or catching away refers to a specific event.  It is not like the ascension of Jesus or of the two witnesses.  Take a look at the Thessalonians passage with me.  This was written to help those who would read the letter to not worry about the dead, particularly the dead in Christ.  This gives the order of the catching away.   These are words of encouragement.  The order is the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive and remain.  We the living will not preceed them.  The living will not be caught away until all those who have died in Christ have been raise.

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It is important to listen to the words of Jesus concerning those who believe in Him.  Jesus said, 

John 6:38-40 King James Version (KJV)

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believers will be raised up on the last day.  Last indicates a day after which there are no more days.  That is the time of the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years.  The rest of the dead spoken of in Rev. 20 includes sheep and goats.  I believe the dead in Christ who are not raised in the first resurrection will be raised at this time and the catching away follows.  We will not proceed them. 

Look closely at Rev.20 concerning the resurrections.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Notice the specific list of those who are raised at this point.  To qualify for this resurrection you have to have been beheaded for the witness of Christ and the word of God,  Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received the mark of the beast.  These are raised.  No one else is raised at this point.  If you wish to add to the list there is some warning about adding stuff if you recall.  The rest of the dead will include those who have fallen asleep in Christ.  That is the second resurrection.

Cannot be simpler or clearer than this, read the Scriptures and believe or don't believe. That's our choice.

Scripture teaches that there has been one rapture already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

[seeking the lost]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Cannot be simpler or clearer than this, read the Scriptures and believe or don't believe. That's our choice.

Scripture teaches that there has been one rapture already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First rapture was, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

Thank you hazzard.

I do not disagree with the scriptures that you are quoting they are clear to me but in a different way than they are to you.  I would see the second rapture, as you call it, to be without a resurrection in your timing.  Both scriptures link the rapture to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.  Because there is not a resurrection before the first resurrection unless you want to add one there can be no rapture with your timing.

You state clearly in your post that there are two resurrections with a thousand years between.  I agree with that because that is what the scripture indicates.  I do not think you can move these around or change who is raised when.  I go with what the scripture says as you have indicated.

The fourth rapture that you indicate as being of the tribulation saints is questionable.  The question is where in the Word of God does it state that they are raptured?  The scripture states that they are raised to reign.  That would be reigning on earth with Christ during the thousand years.

[The Light]

On 4/10/2019 at 9:26 AM, seeking the lost said:

Thank you hazzard.

I do not disagree with the scriptures that you are quoting they are clear to me but in a different way than they are to you.  I would see the second rapture, as you call it, to be without a resurrection in your timing.  Both scriptures link the rapture to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.  Because there is not a resurrection before the first resurrection unless you want to add one there can be no rapture with your timing.

You state clearly in your post that there are two resurrections with a thousand years between.  I agree with that because that is what the scripture indicates.  I do not think you can move these around or change who is raised when.  I go with what the scripture says as you have indicated.

The fourth rapture that you indicate as being of the tribulation saints is questionable.  The question is where in the Word of God does it state that they are raptured?  The scripture states that they are raised to reign.  That would be reigning on earth with Christ during the thousand years.

The fourth rapture will be the rapture of the 12 tribes. Yes they are the tribulation saints but the fullness of the Gentiles will come in at the pre tribulation rapture. Scripture says that there are 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. If we know the 1st fruits of a harvest, we know what will be harvested. This proves that the harvest will be the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. There will be tribulation Gentiles saved also, but they will be the gleanings of the field.

Here is where you can find the fourth rapture in scripture.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is the gathering that Paul says will occur before the day of the Lord.  It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The gathering from heaven is the dead in Christ and the pretribulation rapture church. The gathering from earth is the harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth and the Gentile gleanings.

Only the remnant in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up, go through the wrath of God.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by The Light
clarification

[OldCoot]

The first resurrection very well could be the cumulative of all  the redeemed, since the unredeemed are not resurrected until Revelation 20.

Matthew 27:52-53 is the first of these.  It happened shortly after Yeshua's resurrection.  They are called saints, thus they are the redeemed.  (Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, etc were never called saints). Now the scripture doesn't say, but some of the early church writers who know the Apostles or knew disciples of the Apostles wrote that these resurrected saints were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  Dr. Norman Geisler did a very detailed and documented paper on this available online.

That conforms with the harvest requirements of Leviticus 23.   Yeshua told Mary not to touch Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father.  As our High Priest, He would be required to offer the First Fruits of the Harvest to the Father.  Yeshua is the first fruits of those who live, but He is not the First Fruits of the Harvest.   After that was accomplished then later He appeared to the Disciples and others and ate with them and was touched by them.

There will be the resurrection at the removal of the righteous before the antichrist is revealed.  There is the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation.  3 resurrections at least with more possible, but all involving redeemed only and classed within the First Resurrection.

The second resurrection is the one at the end of the age when all  from time past who were not part of the First Resurrection, the unredeemed, are resurrected to face the prosecutorial Great White Throne Judgment where the evidence will be presented that the Lord in just in His condemnation of them. 

It is a possible analysis.  I am not saying it is written in stone.  But it seems to fit best for me and conform to scripture.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[seeking the lost]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

The fourth rapture will be the rapture of the 12 tribes. Yes they are the tribulation saints but the fullness of the Gentiles will come in at the pre tribulation rapture. Scripture says that there are 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. If we know the 1st fruits of a harvest, we know what will be harvested. This proves that the harvest will be the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. There will be tribulation Gentiles saved also, but they will be the gleanings of the field.

Here is where you can find the fourth rapture in scripture.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is the gathering that Paul says will occur before the day of the Lord.  It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The gathering from heaven is the dead in Christ and the pretribulation rapture church. The gathering from earth is the harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth and the Gentile gleanings.

Only the remnant in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up, go through the wrath of God.

 

Thank you for your observations .  I have trouble with placing all these raptures absent a resurrection.  All of the rapture texts are linked to a resurrection of believers, all those who are asleep in Christ.  Those asleep in Christ must rise first and then rapture.  Is it correct to assume that you are OK with adding to the resurrections in order to have multiple raptures? 

[The Light]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:43 AM, seeking the lost said:

Thank you for your observations .  I have trouble with placing all these raptures absent a resurrection.  All of the rapture texts are linked to a resurrection of believers, all those who are asleep in Christ.  Those asleep in Christ must rise first and then rapture.  Is it correct to assume that you are OK with adding to the resurrections in order to have multiple raptures? 

I don't consider it adding to the resurrections, if there are resurrections. Any resurrections of the righteous are considered the 1st resurrection. I believe the dead in Christ will rise 1st, likely on Passover, the barley harvest. I believe that the pretibulation rapture will happen next, and it is the wheat harvest. This early summer harvest will likely occur on Pentecost. Of course, no one knows the day nor the hour. The harvest of the twelve tribes will like happen on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall fruit harvest. For reference we can see this harvest in Revelation 14.

[Kristin]

Thank you everyone for your deep study and willingness to share your knowledge and understanding of our glorious scriptures!  I believe in a pre trib rapture, but I am going to read through all this and the Bible. There is no end to God’s wisdom. It’s so simple, yet so very deep and provocative!  Thank you to everyone who has posted.