Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Where did I say this? I said that heaven and the tabernacle that is in heaven are two different things. So tell me brother, if Ephesians 4:10 say that our Lord Jesus ...

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

... [1] on what basis do you say that the Tabernacle that Moses copied was in heaven? [2] Does this verse not plainly say that it is outside of heaven?

[1] Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.

Rev. 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the [Mosaic] copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[2] No. That verse does not mention the heavenly temple at all.

[AdHoc]

26 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

[1] Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.

Rev. 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the [Mosaic] copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[2] No. That verse does not mention the heavenly temple at all.

Good argument. How do you reconcile the apparent anomaly? You can't pit one scripture against another. That would be to admit that God made a mistake - and that would be the end of the inspired Oracles.

[truth7t7]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Good argument. How do you reconcile the apparent anomaly? You can't pit one scripture against another. That would be to admit that God made a mistake - and that would be the end of the inspired Oracles.

More like it's your belief and misunderstanding of God's word, there aren't any conflicting scriptures, just man's inability to understand correctly

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

More like it's your belief and misunderstanding of God's word, there aren't any conflicting scriptures, just man's inability to understand correctly

Then why did you not take the matter up with the brother who did not answer my theory - but brought scripture to counter scriptures?

But maybe you can enlighten me. That I could be wrong is given . So tell us; If our Lord Jesus ascended to a place above ALL heavens, and He is then seated in the Father's throne, is the Throne IN the heavens or above it?

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

So tell us; If our Lord Jesus ascended to a place above ALL heavens, and He is then seated in the Father's throne, is the Throne IN the heavens or above it?

You can't put God in a box, he is "Omnipresent"

Isaiah 66:1KJV

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Edited April 28, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You can't put God in a box, he is "Omnipresent"

Isaiah 66:1KJV

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

I knew you'd duck that one.

[WilliamL]

On 4/27/2022 at 3:56 PM, AdHoc said:

Good argument. How do you reconcile the apparent anomaly? You can't pit one scripture against another.

There is no anomaly, there is only your presumption added into Ephesians 4:10.

When Jesus descended to Hades, He did not stay there. When Jesus ascended above the heavens, nothing says that He stayed there either: that is only your presumption. An adding to the Word.

But what does the Word say where Jesus is now? --

Acts 3:21 “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[transmogrified]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Since neither group believes that John 14 will take place at the rapture event, when will it take place? 

Hi Iamlamad- 

    In my Fathers house (the congregation of saints) are many abodes, (dwelling places), I go to prepare (provide, or appoint)  a place for you (the station held by one in any company or assembly...To put or set in any particular rank, state or condition)

On the day of Pentecost there were about 120 disciples (dwelling places) in the upper room obeying the command of Jesus to not depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which Jesus told them of. These were some of the many abodes Jesus was talking about. The 'abodes' are dwelling places, and God was going to dwell in these men. At the time they were assembled together in Jerusalem the Holy Ghost had not yet been given so when they were filled with the Holy Ghost was when Jesus actually came inside these 'abodes' or dwelling places and made them his dwelling place...no longer just WITH them, but now IN them. 

This was in fulfillment of what Jesus said in John 14 that Jesus would pray the Father, and he would give them another comforter, that he may abide with them forever...even the spirit of truth...which he said at that time was dwelling with them but then it would be in them. 

When Jesus said he would go away and come again and receive them unto himself, this is not the Second Coming he was referring to, but was rather referring to when he was going to come to them as the Holy Spirit...this is what he said:

"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you..." This was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples...Jesus said that he and his Father would make their abode with them:

"If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

This phrase 'and we will come unto him,' again is not referring to the Second Coming, but to the fulfillment of the promise of the Father that the disciples were commanded to wait for in Jerusalem.

It is confirmed he was not talking about the Second Coming in John 14: 20-

"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

At what day? At the rapture? No. At the Second Coming? No. At the day the spirit was poured out on the disciples they knew that he was in them and they were in him. We do not have to wait for the Second Coming to know that God dwells in us...we know it now. 

This is what he meant when he said he would come and make his abode with them...'At that day (the day when God fulfilled the promise of sending them the Holy Spirit) ye shall know that... you are in me, and I am in you.

The house where God was going to dwell was not in heaven, but in his disciples who were on the earth.  The same Jesus who said it was expedient for him to go also said he would come again and receive us unto himself. This makes the statement true, that 'where he is we will be also.' Where is he now? He dwells in his church. Where is his church? It is on the earth. This is not the second coming. This is when  Jesus had returned in the form of the Holy Spirit and he had taken up his abode in the disciples..remember he said he was WITH them (before the spirit was given) but THEN  he would be IN them, (after the spirit was given), making them his abode, as he said 'we will come unto him and make our abode with him.' 

So he said I go to prepare a place for you...why? He said it was expedient for him to go away, because if he did not go away the comforter (the Holy Spirit) would not come unto them...he then says 'and when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.'

The coming of the comforter, or when he said he would come again and receive us unto himself, or when it says 'when he is come,'  he is not referring to the second coming, even though the  same word for the second coming is used. It is referring to him dying, being resurrected, and ascending and then coming back in spirit form to dwell in us and so we can dwell in him. He said he would dwell in us, or make his abode with us, and we are to dwell in him, as he said in John 15:4

"Abide in me, and I in you..."

Quote

In my Fathers house (the congregation of saints) are many abodes, (dwelling places), I go to prepare (provide)  a place for you (the station held by one in any company or assembly...To put or set in any particular rank, state or condition)

So what is meant by Jesus preparing  a place for them? One of the definitions in Websters for the word 'prepare' is 'to provide, or to appoint.' Another definition for the word 'place' in Websters is 'the station held by one in any company or assembly.'  

The word 'place' of course does not have to mean a physical space, but is determined by how it is used in a certain context. When it says 'give no place to the devil..' he is not talking about a physical area or space.

Speaking to the Ephesian church Jesus said they had left their first love and if they did not repent God would remove their candlestick out of its place. So God can put people in their proper place and can also remove them out of that place. But of course this is not a physical area...it is their position before God. 

So Jesus went away and came again in spirit form to provide us a station in the congregation. What are these stations? As he said when he ascended up on high he then gave gifts to men...: What are these gifts?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers." 

What does a station mean? From Websters the transitive form of 'station' is:

Quote

STATION, verb transitive To place; to set; or to appoint to the occupation of a post, place or office

Then of course there is the noun form of 'station' which is the position itself.

 

Quote

"If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.."

So does God place, or set, or appoint men to specific offices?

Yes he does. And of course a bishop is not the only thing God appoints people to. There are many other things as shown below:

1 Cor. 12:28

"And God hath SET (appointed) some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues...."

And how do these things operate in the church? By the Holy Spirit. By the same Jesus that came again in the form of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. 

As it states:

"But these all (gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." 

There are many scriptures showing we are the temple and the house of God:

Quote

 

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

 

Since there is no resurrection for any believers until the last day, and there is no rapture shown to happen without the ascension of the dead in Christ rising first, this cannot be construed to be a pre trib rapture event. 

Blessings to you-

Edited May 9, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Another definition for the word 'place' in Websters is 'the station held by one in any company or assembly.'  

Correction: The definition for the word 'place' given above did not come from Websters, but rather from the Blue Letter Bible as follows:

Quote

 

Place- #5117 Strongs metaph.

1) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly

2) opportunity, power, occasion for acting

 

 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:15 PM, WilliamL said:

There is no anomaly, there is only your presumption added into Ephesians 4:10.

When Jesus descended to Hades, He did not stay there. When Jesus ascended above the heavens, nothing says that He stayed there either: that is only your presumption. An adding to the Word.

But what does the Word say where Jesus is now? --

Acts 3:21 “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

No, there is no anomaly. But if your given verses says that He is in heaven and Ephesians says He is above the highest heaven, you have to deal with it. And it is not difficult. 8 times does scripture speak of the "Heavens OF heaven ... that cannot contain God"

Nice swapping ideas with you. Go well.