Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

I assume this is a TYPO and you meant Rev. 7 here and the next verse is from Rev. 20 (Rev. 20:4). It is not contradictory, its a misunderstanding by us human beings who have limited the way God can use the two words Great Tribulation. Always look at THE WORD to get the timing, then move out from there.

As you say, Rev. 7 says those seen in Heaven (Before the 2nd Coming) came out of the Great Tribulation. So, what gives, well, God never contradicts himself, we conflate things. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

The problem as I see it is to be found in the LABELS that we use. The "Great Tribulation" is a time of huge pressure on individuals. Slander, persecution, hounding, mass murder, and the like have been happening throughout the last 2,000 years or so. Right now, Christians are being persecuted and murdered in Nigeria! Daily, missiles are sent into the Land of Israel from the Gaza Strip! Both the Jews and the believers in the Jewish Messiah called "Christians" have been chased from one country to another, have been hunted and killed, have been put on public show and killed en masse, for almost 2,000 years now. The Trail of Blood, a book by J. M. Carroll, showing the record from a Christian perspective, and The Persecution of the Jews, by Michael Simpson, Sr., with the extended title "and Christian Believers," are two small books that show the history in brief of the Pressures (the Tribulation) of these people down through the last two thousand years. Subjected to persecutions, inquisitions from the "Church," pogroms, expulsions, and mass extermination down through the centuries, and lately, one can add terrorism, the Jews have been harrassed beyond measure.

We Christian believers have recently (since the 1800s with John Nelson Darby and the propagation of his theory in the notes by C. I. Scofield in The Scofield Reference Bible, based upon the King James Version of the Bible) been subjected to the popularity of the theory of Pretribulational Rapturism. However, there are a few things that we should know about the prophecies of Scripture:

FIRST, there's nothing that equates the SEVENTIETH WEEK of Daniel 9 with the TRIBULATION, GREAT or otherwise. Nothing in Scripture requires such a definition.

SECOND, we have a poor definition of "heaven" these days. It didn't used to be this way. People just 50 years ago knew that the "heavens" were the "skies," and talked that way: "The balloon just soared off into the heavens." That's how the Savior used the word in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: to men prosoopon tou ouranou = "the <-> indeed face of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

The Pharisees asked Him for a sign "from heaven," and He gave them one: "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" but, that's all they were getting! Most people describe "Heaven" with the description of the New Jerusalem!

THIRD, the word "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh and Greek: psuchee) means an "air-breathing creature." Thus, the "soul" doesn't "leave the body"; instead, the "soul," being a LIVING, "AIR-BREATHING body" stops being a "soul" when the body "stops breathing!" This is important to understand when it comes to death and what to expect after death. I am my body. When I die, I will cease being a soul, and my breath (my "spirit") will leave me as I "breathe my last." My physical dad is "hours away" from death even now. I just got the message, and we're far from him at present. My dad believes that he will be "going to heaven" when he dies. I don't believe that, but I'm not going to tell him that at this point in time! BUT, I am a STAUNCH BELIEVER in the Resurrection! Our bodies - WE - will breathe again! In fact, according to Paul, they will do MUCH MORE than just breathe in the Resurrection! We will be bodies that cannot die again, will never decay, and will be STRONGER than ever, even giving off visibly bright light! Think about how all of this will affect what one believes about the book of Revelation!

On 6/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

In Rev. 6 at the 5th Seal Jesus tells those Martyrs under the Altar that they HAVE TO WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were before they can get vengeance, which means they have to wait until the 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ is finished.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under (Greek: hupokatoo = "underneath") the altar the souls of them that were slain (Greek: esfagmenoon = "having had been slain") for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In the opening of the 5th Seal, Yeshua` is talking to the "SOULS" - "AIR-BREATHING CREATED BEINGS" who are living again, able to don white robes, and talk to someone about how long it's going to be before their deaths are avenged! It CHANGES the fabric of what one believes about this 5th Seal! It tells me that their Resurrection has ALREADY OCCURRED! So, who are they and who are their brothers?

On 6/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

We know this by adding this together with Rev. 20:4 which says all of those who are raised, judged, and who rule with Christ for 1000 years MUST have refused the Mark of the Beast (which means they all must have lived during the 70th week).

So, what gives? Well, Jesus said in John 16:33 that ALL TIME on this earth is Tribulation. So, we need to dissect it.

1.) The Church Age Tribulation for 2000 some odd years until the Pre Trib Rapture.

2.) The 70th Week Tribulations via the years between the Rapture and Second Coming.

3.) The 3.5 Years of Jacobs Troubles.

The 2000 years of Church Age Tribulation is GREATER than the 7 year period, no doubt.

This is confusing the "Tribulation," particularly the "Great Tribulation," with the "Seventieth Week" of Daniel 9. The two are NOT equal! To the contrary, the Seventieth Week was started already in the First Century A.D. when Yeshua` offered the Kingdom to the children of Israel, particularly the children of Yhudah ("Judah") - the Jews, for 3.5 years. Yeshua` HIMSELF split the Week in half when He left them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38. He left them this way because of the overspreading of their abominations, reported in His scathing rebuke of Matthew 23:1-37. The Great Tribulation IS the "Church Age Tribulation," which is also the "Time of Jacob's Trouble." The children of Israel, particularly the Jews, the members of Yeshua`s ("Jesus'") OWN TRIBE, have been suffering the Pressure since the First Century, when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., for their rejection of God's Messiah! THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE is what Yeshua` called "the abomination that made them desolate," and they have been DESOLATE for almost 2,000 years now! (They ARE a stubborn, stiff-necked people!) They can end it at any time IF they would welcome Him back as God's Messiah - God's Choice for Israel's King. Now, however, after years and years of rejection and misinformation, about 70% of the Jews in Israel are ATHEISTS! They no longer know about their own GOD, YHWH!

But, Paul said, 

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion (the Mountain upon which Jerusalem is built) the Deliverer,
and SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB:
27 For this is my covenant unto them,
WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are ENEMIES for your sakes: BUT as touching THE ELECTION, they are BELOVED for the fathers' sakes. 29 For THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE. (I.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling!) 30 For as ye (Gentile believers) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (the unbelief of the children of Israel): 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, it was God's PLAN for them to come to faith THROUGH US, who have obtained His mercy!

 

On 6/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

The 3.5 years of Troubles is GREATER IN SEVERITY than all other troubles ever seen. Both are factual statements. We can't pigeon hole how God can describe things. He can use GREAT for both Severity, and Length, its us who demand it can only be used for one thing, not God.

Actually, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, first identified by Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah") the prophet in Jeremiah 30:7, has existed since the First Century A.D. It is "Great" in both length of time AND severity! And, if the Tribulation began in the First Century and will continue until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, then there is no "Pre-tribulational" ANYTHING! And, the 3.5 years left of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9 will be to complete the six purposes for the Seventy Weeks:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy."

What's true for all 70 Weeks is also true for the 70th Week, and what's true for the 70th Week is also true for the last half of the 70th Week! It, too, will be a time for the Messiah to "make an end of (thy people's) sins" and to "make reconciliation for (thy people's) iniquity!" The latter half of the 70th Week is not for "Tribulation" but to continue Yeshua` offer of the Kingdom to a WILLING people!

On 6/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Revelation Man said:

But those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only come out of the Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers died and were then raised to go marry the Lamb in Heaven before we return with him in Rev. 19. Those Martyrs spoken of in Rev. 6 CAN NOT go to be with the Lord until after the 70th week troubles, and they are not raised until after the Rev. 19 return, as seen in Rev. 20, where they alone can rule with Christ for 1000 years. Its simple, we make it complex, when added up, it can only be a Pre Trib Raptured Church seen in Rev. 7:9-17.

No, not really. You're right that "those seen in Revelation 7:9-17 come out of the Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers died," but we DON'T "marry the Lamb in Heaven before we return with Him in Revelation 19!" As seen in the marriage at Cana that our Lord attended at the beginning of His ministry, wine is an INTRICATE part in the celebration of a marriage! But, Yeshua` said,

Luke 22:14-30 (KJV)

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them,

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said,

"Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come."

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying,

"This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying,

"This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

23 And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. 24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them,

"The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called 'benefactors.' 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

28 "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

He also said,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ..."

So, His Kingdom doesn't begin until He shall come in His brightness (Greek: doxa), and He won't drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God shall come; AND, since the wine is important in the wedding feast, the conclusion is that the marriage of the Lamb will take place AFTER His coming!

Since the Resurrection of His holy ones ("saints") is associated with His Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), the participants in this marriage feast will have already been resurrected! 

So, it is not true that "they are not raised until after the Rev. 19 return." Revelation 19 is the "Charge!" in a battle, but it is not His Second Coming. His Second Coming must be found earlier than that! Remember: the sun, moon, and stars signs are seen in the opening of the sixth seal, back in Revelation 6! We also see those-who-were-killed alive again as "SOULS," "air-breathing created beings," in the opening of the fifth seal!

Sorry to "upset the apple cart," but there seems to be more work to do.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

At the sheep and goat scenario people are sent to enter the Joy of the Lord, to enter the place prepared for them.

But the scenario you propose denies this.

How? What I'm saying based on what I read is the resurrection at the 2nd advent is of a specific group described in Rev 7,15 and 20. That description is very plain. 

Then all the rest not part of that group are resurrected later, after the 1000 years, and pass through the opening of the books and judged on deeds. Matt 25:31-46 doesn't have a time stamp beyond, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne." This isn't a single day but 1000 years of rule and then an eternity. The above quote only describes the time when Jesus sits on the throne in glory. That's when all the nations will be gathered before Him. It's not the day He comes, though it could be. It's not the week or the year. The above is not specific in date but in condition; When He comes and sits on the throne in glory. That's over thousands of years. 

We see books opened in Rev 20 and the dead judged according to their deeds. "And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books."

In Matt 25:31-46 the sheep and goats, the resurrected dead, are judged according to their deeds. It's the the same judgement.

In Rev 20 we see a throne, "Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them." Just like the glorious throne in Matt 25:31. It's the same throne.

I won't restrict Matt 25:31 to a time not related to the time of the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years.

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

Not only will it bring about the ban of those previously listed and more, but this contradicts what Jesus said in John 14:2 & 3- 

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

There's no general ban. It appears the resurrection, at the 2nd advent, of the dead in Christ and the remaining living is specified as coming from GT and hence restricted to that time/space moment of GT. 

Because only some are resurrected at this time and some later doesn't create a ban nor does it remove a promise of eternal life in the house of God. It only delays the entry therein. As an aside, and an important one, a delay of 1000 years is a moment in comparison to eternity.  

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

This is no lie. No need to juggle ad hoc disasters. 

To avoid these contradictions one only need to read Rev 20:7-10 (maybe even 5-10) as being in parentheses, showing the narrative continuing in v. 11 pertaining to the BEGINNING of the 1K yrs.

I don't get it. Why would I do that? What is the logical justification to rearrange the timeline?

Rev 20:5 and Rev 20:14 both refer to the 2nd death. The 2nd death has no power over those in the protos resurrection. It has power over those in the 2nd resurrection. That eliminates placing the GWT before the 1000 years. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes THAT Great Tribulation, is not the great tribulation the Church comes out of, we come of of the 2000 year church age tribulation, not the 70th week tribulation. The time being CUT SHORT is Jesus foretelling God's PLAN of 1260 days in which He allows the Beast to rule, Jesus (Man in Linen in Dan. 12) told us in Dan. 12:7 it would only be a 1260 day period of time until ALL THESE WONDRS END. So, nothing changes, the 70th week lasts 7 years, the 3.5 years of God's Wrath lasts 3.5 years and the Anti-Christ is allowed to rule over Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region for 1260 days the whole "CUT SHORT" is referring to when they KILL this thug A.C., after his 1260 days of ruling Jesus KILLS HIM. That is what Jesus meant by cutting this great tribulation short, he STOPS this Beasts rule after 1260 days by killing him.

Yes, but not for the Church which is by that time in Heaven. The Church went through Great Tribulation for 2000 some odd years then get Raptured to be with the Lord. Millions of our brothers have indeed died for Jesus' namesake. As Stephen and all the Disciples (save John) did.

Jews who repent AFTER the Rapture (the 144,000 which = 3-5 million Jews who flee Judea)

This is the Greatest Ever Troubles. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, both can be and are true. No one from the 70th week makes the wedding, the DOORS ARE SHUT. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth because ALL THOSE LEFT will go through the 70th week and the 3.5 years. God's Wrath will take out some who become Christians, 1/3 of the world will burn, I think the New World is totally wiped out. So, just like with tornadoes/hurricanes etc. some Christians will die. 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 come out of the Church Age GREAT TRIBULATION, its a fact. God can not be told how He can use the word Great. (MEGA). All of these preconceived ideas is why people miss what God is saying. No one is going to Heaven after the 70th week starts, its obvious, in the 5th Seal they are told they MUST WAIT. In Revelation 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast are only raised and judged AFTER the 2nd Coming, so that means those seen in Rev. 7 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church. And can be nothing else.

So, the millions of brothers killed during the Church Age Tribulation is not GREAT TRIBULATION? Of course it is.

 

Okay. So cite the scriptures where it's said there is a 2000 year Church age GT. 

Why would you leave out the Jews in Egypt? In fact they weren't even Jews at the time as the law hadn't been given yet. They were just believers. Are you going to leave out Abel? He was persecuted by Cain and then killed for his faith. There are hundreds of others. 

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

What I'm saying based on what I read is the resurrection at the 2nd advent is of a specific group described in Rev 7,15 and 20. That description is very plain.

This is very plain too:

The Mystery of Resurrection

1Cor 15:51 & 52- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It isn't a martyrs only resurrection. And we know when it happens too. There is no rapture without the resurrection either.

Luke 19:15- And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him

This begins the parable of the talents. After the servants are rewarded, He turns to the others.

v. 19:27- But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

According to the sheep/goats verses it is "when the Son of Man shall come".

According to Rev 11:15-And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

v. 18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We cannot ignore what Paul said in 1Cor. 15 or the time that is declared in Rev.

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

In Rev 20 we see a throne, "Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them

This matches perfectly with Rev 6:14-And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

v. 16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They see Him sitting on His throne!!

His judgment won't be dragged out, He looks ready to do so when He comes. And it will not take long:

Matt 10:15- Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matt 11:22- But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you

Matt 11:24- But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee

Matt 12:36-But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

2Peter 2:9-  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Peter 3:7- But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1John 4:17- Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

One gets the idea that Jesus and His apostles believed there is a DAY of judgment!

By disregarding these things we can certainly create scenarios that are easy to fall into by reading in a strictly linear method in Rev 20. But encompassing the whole of God's word in the matter we avoid the errors it creates.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Uriah
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[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You can paste scriptures well sister. However interpreting them together in a cohesive understanding is much more important.

I agree with that and you probably think it all sorts of crazy I believe HE says it better than I do, BUT, if you had ANY to back up what you say, you would too. 

PRE TRIB RAPTURE the biggest miracle GOD NEVER ONCE MENTIONES, never once  hints at, not in the OLD nor the NEW.  Even Jesus, speaking of His return, NEVER utters A SINGLE WORD, not a single indication, not even a single correction  Scripture to accommodate it.  

Why doesn't God acknowledge it AT ALL?  

IN fact He warned directly against it.   
 
Don't be deceived by any man.  If they say here or there is Christ DON'T BELIEVE THEM.  
And what exactly does the rapture theory say?
LOOK, UP IN THE SKY - THERE IS CHRIST

What does the born of the Spirit Christian say?  no way that can be TRUTH.


How close do your thoughts align with HIS?  

YOU SAID  "It would be JUSTICE that NO MAN should have to suffer for following the TRUE God".

JUST HOW MANY SCRIPTURES do you suppose, that kind of thought is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to?

If I can't find more than 5, I will move onto your next sentence.  If I do find 5 or more, I'll be skipping the rest.
 

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

PRE TRIB RAPTURE REQUIRES GOD TO TURN FROM BASICALLY EVERY THING WRITTEN from what Christians are told will take place to how they are to act in situations, etc. 

HOW DO YOU GET AROUND THAT?  Is there anything written for this GREAT CHANGE we are told DOESN'T HAPPEN or do you just take a guess and move past it as if it has no bearing on your doctrine or the question simply wasn't asked?  Usually it is just by passed to get back to all the 'fruit from the poison tree' so to speak.  

3883. parallagé ►
Strong's Concordance
parallagé: change
Original Word: παραλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parallagé
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-lag-ay')
Definition: change
Usage: a change, variation, mutation.


5157. tropé ►
Strong's Concordance
tropé: a turning
Original Word: τροπή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: tropé
Phonetic Spelling: (trop-ay')
Definition: a turning
Usage: a turning, change, mutation.



644. aposkiasma ►
Strong's Concordance
aposkiasma: a shadow
Original Word: ἀποσκίασμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: aposkiasma
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-kee'-as-mah)
Definition: a shadow
Usage: either a shadow cast by an object, or a faint image or copy of an object.
HELPS Word-studies
644 aposkíasma (from 575 /apó, "from" and skiazō, "cast shade") – properly, a shadow created by turning. Typically shadows change according to the changing position of the sun (being short at midday and lengthy at nightfall). But God doesn't change (shorten or lengthen!)because He Himself is His the only absolute reference point! Unlike a shifting shadow, caused by revolution, the Lord is immutable and possesses all power and life in Himself.


 

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; :20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord)

Psalm 66:8 O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
Psalm 66:9 Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.
Psalm 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
Psalm 66:11 Thou broughtest us into the net; thou laidst affliction upon our loins.
Psalm 66:12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
 

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Matthew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

 

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
 

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


 

2 Peter 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

2 Peter 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

AND NO HOLY MAN EVER MENTIONED CHRIST COMING BEFORE SATAN.  EVERYTHING WRITTEN tells us SATAN IS COMING FIRST.  

BUT OF THAT DAY -  DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN  NOT UNTIL THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN WITH LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS then
HIS BRIGHTNESS WILL DESTROY.  What could make anyone believe that 'brightness' could be concealed for a pre trib?  How would it not destroy pre trib when it does post trib?  


Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars

[Montana Marv]

On 6/8/2022 at 2:24 AM, Diaste said:

That's those in Christ. It's not Jews. A common misconception. "If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise." The people of Daniel are the seed of Abraham, those in Christ, the heirs of the promise. 

He is talking to Daniel, and him alone for his benefit.

Daniel 12 4-14.  But you Daniel... Then I Daniel... Go your way, Daniel because...  v.13 As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You (Daniel) will rest, then at the end of the days you (Daniel) will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

The inheritance is a portion of the Land.  The Abrahamic Covenant includes a People (those descendants of Jacob); a Land, the Promise Land. And a Blessing, who/which is Jesus Christ.  We as the Bride have an inheritance which is sealed by the Holy Spirit, not an earthly inheritance.

BTW the people of Daniel are but one seed of Abraham.  Abraham was the father of many nations.  Many seeds.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

PRE TRIB RAPTURE the biggest miracle GOD NEVER ONCE MENTIONES, never once  hints at, not in the OLD nor the NEW.  Even Jesus, speaking of His return, NEVER utters A SINGLE WORD, not a single indication, not even a single correction  Scripture to accommodate it.  

That is because Jesus, the Word, the Scripture, does not know.  He himself in Scripture says that Only God the Father knows when the Rapture event will occur.  That would include Pre, Mid, Pre Wrath or Post.  It is only God the Father who draws individuals to Jesus.  If this be the case, it is evident then that only the Father, and Him alone who knows the time of the Rapture. The Bride is a gift from the Father to His Son.  It is in the Fathers hand, not the Sons.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

The problem as I see it is to be found in the LABELS that we use. The "Great Tribulation" is a time of huge pressure on individuals. Slander, persecution, hounding, mass murder, and the like have been happening throughout the last 2,000 years or so. Right now, Christians are being persecuted and murdered in Nigeria! Daily, missiles are sent into the Land of Israel from the Gaza Strip! Both the Jews and the believers in the Jewish Messiah called "Christians" have been chased from one country to another, have been hunted and killed, have been put on public show and killed en masse, for almost 2,000 years now. The Trail of Blood, a book by J. M. Carroll, showing the record from a Christian perspective, and The Persecution of the Jews, by Michael Simpson, Sr., with the extended title "and Christian Believers," are two small books that show the history in brief of the Pressures (the Tribulation) of these people down through the last two thousand years. Subjected to persecutions, inquisitions from the "Church," pogroms, expulsions, and mass extermination down through the centuries, and lately, one can add terrorism, the Jews have been harrassed beyond measure.

We Christian believers have recently (since the 1800s with John Nelson Darby and the propagation of his theory in the notes by C. I. Scofield in The Scofield Reference Bible, based upon the King James Version of the Bible) been subjected to the popularity of the theory of Pretribulational Rapturism. However, there are a few things that we should know about the prophecies of Scripture:

Firstly, NOTHING started with Darby, the Pre Trib Rapture comes from Paul and Jesus. Jesus was called only unto the Jews so he did not spell it out, Paul was calked unto the Gentiles so he spelled it out more or less in a few chapters here and there. It is very easy to understand as long as we now how to interpret those very few bible passages. 

I understand it, I am correct on this, but in truth it really doesn't matter what men say, God is not relying on our understandinghttps://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png, He is going to fulfill His truths as prophesied. It is what it is

 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

FIRST, there's nothing that equates the SEVENTIETH WEEK of Daniel 9 with the TRIBULATION, GREAT or otherwise. Nothing in Scripture requires such a definition.

Of course there is, its the Rapture and the Time of the Gentiles being fulfilled that ushers in the 70th week. If one dissects Matt. 24 correctly they understand that in verses 4-6 Jesus tells the Disciples that the END IS NOT YET, meaning the end of the age, meaning the Kingdom will not be set up in 70 AD when verses 4-6 happen. But it is by and by, or LATER ON........Then after many verses we are specifically told when that END would indeed come, as soon as the Gospel has been preached unto ALL THE WORLD in verse 14, then the end comes. So, THAT END brings forth the 70th week troubles, there is a Church Age troubles, there is a 70th week troubles AND a 3.5 years of the Greatest Ever Troubles seen by mankind. Jesus does not tell us untruths, he stated ALL TIMES on this earth will be tribulation. 

 

SEE BELOW.........so, is Jesus wrong, or is my point spot on? 

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, there is just no way you can say the 70th week is not tribulation. I know how to interpret this passage brother, I do not get lost in the shuffle so to speak. God says what He says and I trust it in full without trying to overtly massage it. 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

SECOND, we have a poor definition of "heaven" these days. It didn't used to be this way. People just 50 years ago knew that the "heavens" were the "skies," and talked that way: "The balloon just soared off into the heavens." That's how the Savior used the word in Matthew 16:1-4:

Yes, I know what Heaven means here, we have a (1st) Heaven (our skies in our Bio Dome). We have a (2nd) Heaven (The universe or where Satan's demons live, on this earth and in the whole universe). And of course we have the (3rd) Heaven where God resides (outside our Universe). Satan goes before the Alar in the 2nd Heaven day and night condemning and accusing us.

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And he left them, and departed.

The Pharisees asked Him for a sign "from heaven," and He gave them one: "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" but, that's all they were getting! Most people describe "Heaven" with the description of the New Jerusalem!

All of the above informed me of nothing yet.....maybe it is hooked in with below points of emphasis.

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

THIRD, the word "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh and Greek: psuchee) means an "air-breathing creature." Thus, the "soul" doesn't "leave the body"; instead, the "soul," being a LIVING, "AIR-BREATHING body" stops being a "soul" when the body "stops breathing!"

The Soul is our Mind, Body and Spirit CONJOINED. We sleep until the Rapture just like the Thief went to a holding place called Paradise the very day he died. NOT HEAVEN. 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

My dad believes that he will be "going to heaven" when he dies. I don't believe that, but I'm not going to tell him that at this point in time!

You are correct, no use mentioning that to a loved one close to death. I see it like you (I think) we will be raised as if it were the next morning, but it will be years later. 

Glad to heard your dad is a Christian man, no doubt he was an influence on you. We know where he will be, Amen.

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

BUT, I am a STAUNCH BELIEVER in the Resurrection! Our bodies - WE - will breathe again! In fact, according to Paul, they will do MUCH MORE than just breathe in the Resurrection! We will be bodies that cannot die again, will never decay, and will be STRONGER than ever, even giving off visibly bright light! Think about how all of this will affect what one believes about the book of Revelation!

Yes, we will gain new Glorious bodies. This old sin flesh will never come back however. 

 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, first identified by Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah") the prophet in Jeremiah 30:7, has existed since the First Century A.D. It is "Great" in both length of time AND severity! And, if the Tribulation began in the First Century and will continue until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, then there is no "Pre-tribulational" ANYTHING! And, the 3.5 years left of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9 will be to complete the six purposes for the Seventy Weeks:

Well I would not say for sure Jeremiah was the first to mention it, but he does mention it. Sometimes we see things in scriptures that are not understood, like the Serpent shall bruise the heel or vice versa, many didn't know that was about Jesus way, way back. I imagine there were other passages that spoke of this coming trouble. But I digress. And, there is no 3.5 years left, there is a coming 7 years left, Jesus died at the END of the 69th week, NOWHERE does it say he died in the middle of the week brother. Sorry, it just is not there. 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy."

I have a blog on this that explains it in full detail. 

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What's true for all 70 Weeks is also true for the 70th Week, and what's true for the 70th Week is also true for the last half of the 70th Week! It, too, will be a time for the Messiah to "make an end of (thy people's) sins" and to "make reconciliation for (thy people's) iniquity!" The latter half of the 70th Week is not for "Tribulation" but to continue Yeshua` offer of the Kingdom to a WILLING people!

Daniel's 70th Week Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel has never repented as a Nation)

2. Make and end of sins (An end of Willful Sins)

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel repents at the 1335)

4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus ushers this in)

5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All prophesy must be fulfilled before the 70th week Prophecy can be completed.)

6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus will be anointed Lord of lords and King of kings when  he sits on the throne of David.)

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they have accepted him as their Messiah. Matt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10, 13:8-9) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins, only sins of omission with Satan bound up for 1000 years. Since the 70th week  tribulation is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, then “Willful Sins will End”.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had willful sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of lord and Kings of kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on this earth during the Kingdom Age. There will be peace on earth, the sheep will lie down with the wolves. Amen.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah's help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world. 

-----------------------------------

All of the above however happens after the Rapture of the Church.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, not really. You're right that "those seen in Revelation 7:9-17 come out of the Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers died," but we DON'T "marry the Lamb in Heaven before we return with Him in Revelation 19!" As seen in the marriage at Cana that our Lord attended at the beginning of His ministry, wine is an INTRICATE part in the celebration of a marriage! But, Yeshua` said,

Rev. 19 spells it out very clearly brother. We marry Jesus THEN we return with him to earth where the Beast and his minions reside, then Jesus slays them all by the presence of his coming. 

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ..."

So, His Kingdom doesn't begin until He shall come in His brightness (Greek: doxa), and He won't drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God shall come; AND, since the wine is important in the wedding feast, the conclusion is that the marriage of the Lamb will take place AFTER His coming!

The Marriage SUPPER is Armageddon. Its Metaphoric in Nature. 

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Since the Resurrection of His holy ones ("saints") is associated with His Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), the participants in this marriage feast will have already been resurrected! 

The Rapture and Resurrection happen BEFORE the 70th week. Thus those you assume are that Rapture in Rev. 20:4 are I assume raised at the 2nd coming, and Judged as I stated, AFTER those seen in Rev. 7 (Middle of the week....the 1290 to be more precise) 

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, it is not true that "they are not raised until after the Rev. 19 return." Revelation 19 is the "Charge!" in a battle, but it is not His Second Coming. His Second Coming must be found earlier than that! Remember: the sun, moon, and stars signs are seen in the opening of the sixth seal, back in Revelation 6! We also see those-who-were-killed alive again as "SOULS," "air-breathing created beings," in the opening of the fifth seal!

Sorry to "upset the apple cart," but there seems to be more work to do.

Those seen in Rev. 19 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church, you are conflating the two brother. Here is where you get spun around a wee bit. Rev. 11 (7th Trump......which is the 3rd Woe....which is the 7 Vials) happens at the same time as the 7th Vial as seen in Revelation 16:19, and also at the same time as Revelation 14:1-6 (144,000 Jews who Flee Judea, who are 3-5 million Jews) AND at the same time as Rev. 14:17:20 who are the Wicked who Jesus kills. { Rev. 14:14 is the Pre Trib FLASHBACK, because this is THE HARVEST CHAPTER !! }.......Then finally Rev. 19 covers the exact same timeframe as Rev. 11, 14 and 16. Armageddon ends it all in Rev. 11, 14, 16 and 19. THE SAME TIMELINE. The Same Events. 

Seal # 6 only PROPHESIES what the first four Trumps bring via God's Wrath, but that Wrath lasts for exactly 1260 days brother, until the 2nd Coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS Daniel saw in Dan. 11:36-45. 

The Seals do nothing, except open the book of Judgments. 

Bless you brother, and your dad. 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/9/2022 at 4:06 AM, Diaste said:

Okay. So cite the scriptures where it's said there is a 2000 year Church age GT. 

Why would you leave out the Jews in Egypt? In fact they weren't even Jews at the time as the law hadn't been given yet. They were just believers. Are you going to leave out Abel? He was persecuted by Cain and then killed for his faith. There are hundreds of others. 

Because I am quoting Jesus about HIS Church. Which only started after he was born.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, Jesus said not ye may have, you could have, but YOU WILL HAVE Tribulation. And, since the Church started in AD 33 and it is nigh 2033, that is basically a 2000 year Church Age Period in whch the Church has had tribulation. 

And the number 10 means COMPLETION.

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Smyrna, like the rest were type of Churches over the whole complete Church Age (7 is DIVINE COMPLETION). Thus the Church (7) will have tribulation 10 days means for the complete church age period. All Churches will have tribulation on this earth for the entire Church Age, of course we do, we live in Satan's dark and evil kingdom on this earth. We are told Satan is the god of this world.

---------------------

As per Jews, it just means those people (Israel) living in Judea now, not the Northern Kingdom where they were conquered. If 10 million Italians moved to New York this year along with 10 million Irish guys, in 50 years they would all be called New Yorkers. But alas, its not relevant per se, we are only speaking about the Church Age Tribulation period because I am quote Jesus speaking about his Church !!

Edited June 14, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 6/9/2022 at 2:54 PM, DeighAnn said:

I agree with that and you probably think it all sorts of crazy I believe HE says it better than I do, BUT, if you had ANY to back up what you say, you would too. 

The bible can not be true unless there is a Pre Trib Rapture. Nothing else adds up. No use in me wasting time, its like me talking to walls. I can see it easily, you do not want to see it. Amen

God Bless.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Revelation Man