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The Holy Bible is quite clear that works of any kind do not save. In fact, the Holy Bible emphatically states that if someone is trying to earn salvation by works or merit, that person will not get saved till they repent (change their mind) and cease trying to earn salvation. Works done for salvation mean no salvation. They mock Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles, and it is the will of Jesus Christ that the Gentiles are to hear the gospel from Paul’s letters. Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 2 Timothy 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. When asked what is required for salvation here is what Paul and Silas said. Acts 16:30-31 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. When asked “what must I do to be saved” Paul only mentions “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” He never mentions works, so it is not required. In the following passages Paul clearly states that trying to do works for salvation means no salvation. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. The following passage says that we are saved by grace through faith and not works. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. The following passages say if it is works it is no more grace. But we are only saved by grace. Therefore, works means no salvation at all. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Here are more passages from Paul. Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, So there is no passage from Paul that says works are required for salvation. There are a number that say works mean no salvation. There are many passages where Paul says that faith or belief in Jesus Christ is salvation, and since it is the only thing mentioned it must be through faith alone and not works. Here are just a few. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 3:22-26 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Christ Jesus the Lord shows that there is only one thing needed for salvation. They wanted to know the works (plural), that is, the entire list. Jesus listed the only thing allowed faith. Any other work for salvation is not of God. John 6:28-29 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. In the next passage Jesus Christ says that to be saved you only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It works were required then the statement is false. It would have said: he that believes on me and does good works. Since it does not mention works, it has to be by belief alone. Furthermore, if a person does not believe what Jesus says, then they have not believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, according to Jesus Christ, a person trusting in works or merit for salvation is not saved. Thus John 6:47 is a faith alone statement which excludes works. Furthermore it is an eternal security statement (once saved always saved) since to have everlasting life means you could never be damned, unless it would say might have everlasting life. Thus Jesus declares that works are not needed to maintain salvation either. The double verily makes this simple to understand statement emphatic. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. There are many passages (probably over 200) where only faith or belief in Jesus Christ is what saves. The same logic above applies to each of these statements. John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 11:25-26 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 10:28-30 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. The following passage shows that good works come after salvation (as a result of salvation) and not for salvation. Created in Christ Jesus means already saved. Unto good works shows that good works come after salvation (by God working in you). Notice it also says, “should” not must. So they are not required for salvation or to maintain salvation. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. The above sampling absolutely proves that works are not needed for salvation. They also prove that eternal security (once saved always saved) is absolutely true. They are emphatic and quite clear. Since the Holy Bible has no contradictions, anything that someone thinks shows otherwise is just a mistaken interpretation. Many people assume a passage is talking about salvation/damnation when it is not. This is usually done by taking the verse out of context, assuming meanings of words with false definitions and doctrines, ignoring what salvation really means, or by not rightly dividing the word of truth (see 2 Timothy 2:15) They may be confusing statements made to a different people, for a different time, about a different subject. They may even be using a new Bible version with a corrupt reading. In love, in Christ, in meekness Mark

SIMPLYJEFF that is a very interesting view, and I believe your heart is on point, I also believe that the words of God will never fade away or go void, it is for others like me that can read these old topics and still have value, and teachings ,and add new comments to the old, for it is how we grow in the faith , and strengthen our hearts and mind in the body of Christ, amen..thank you for that advise brother,

Please notice, that I put this in the comedy section. The reason for that is that I found it more humorous, than I found compelling. It is a man lecturing on origins, and whoever made this video, put together snippets from an opposite viewpoint, to make the opposition look stupid. I do not find that to be an intellectually honest method, to debate people from soundbites, and not allow them to speak for themselves. We do not see the context, so this is not a fair fight at all. The creationist here, is made to look like a bully, though he did not make the video. Also, notice that this is an old video, pretty dated. Why all of this info in an introduction? Well, I am just hoping people will watch it for the humor, and not turn this into a debate thread that belongs in another section of the forum. Now I know, it is pointless to expect that people will resist, and exercise some self control, there are always people who have to be heard, have to make sure that others know their opinion, at least that is my take from having reads thousands of threads here. Having said that, I am not going to try to keep this thread focused on any particular direction, in fact, it might not even be a discussion thread. I am just presenting this for entertainment value, and walking away unless it 'evolves' into something that must be dealt with. Enjoy! http://youtu.be/3YcGXZD2jmY <-Low quality, but short version High quality long version below.

By Joseph DeCaro, Worthy News Correspondent (Worthy News) – The U.S. State Department has repeatedly hindered witnesses from testifying about the persecution of Christians by Muslims. According to Jihad Watch, Sister Diana Momenka was scheduled to visit the U.S. last year on behalf of Iraq's persecuted Christians, but was denied a visa because she became an "internally displaced person" after the Islamic State forced her and others to flee St. Ephrem's Seminary in Bakhdida. Momenka was part of a delegation of religious leaders from Iraq that was to meet with the Senate and House foreign relations committees. Every religious leader of the delegation was granted a visa save the sister, who just happened to be its only Christian representative. After her visa refusal went public, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said that the Obama administration never finds a good reason to help Christians, though it always finds an excuse to apologize for terrorists. As a result, the State Department later relented and granted Momenka her visa, but when the United States Institute for Peace gathered all the governors of Nigeria's mostly Muslim northern states for a conference in Washington, D.C., the State Department blocked the visa of Jonah David Jang, the region's only Christian governor. According to a Nigerian human rights lawyer, Jang's denial were the direct result of the U.S. government's bias against Christians. "The U.S. insists that Muslims are the primary victims of Boko Haram," said Emmanuel Ogebe. "It also claims that Christians discriminate against Muslims in Plateau, which is one of the few Christian majority states in the north … The question remains — why is the U.S. downplaying or denying the attacks against Christians?" Why indeed? http://www.worthynews.com/21128-u-s-state-dept-stops-christians-from-testifying' data-summary='The U.S. State Department has repeatedly hindered witnesses from testifying about the persecution of Christians by Muslims.'> View the full article

http://youtu.be/74tfcUObHN0

Once more the buffoons in Washington just do whatever they want to do and, once again, we are letting them get away with it. Why do we even NEED a Congress? Each state has their own and, except for defense, I don't believe we need the federal government at all. Apparently, according to them, we don't need to know where meat comes from even though 90% of the population clearly wants to know. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/06/house-votes-to-repeal-country-of-origin-labeling-for-meat/#.VZlld0aOj3g

... maybe it was just temptation, and it didn't come out of nowhere: it came right from the church's own office.

This is quite incorrect. There have been (and presently are) many *prophets* -- Christians -- who have been giving the USA warning after warning. The country is not entirely under judgment, but God has also been giving America warning after warning, while beginning His judgments. When God causes a nation to choose foolish and blind leaders, some of whom are actually traitors, that too should be regarded as a judgment.

Well, with the latest trend of reviving ancient threads, I've decided to revive one of my own-one that perhaps actually needs revived.

... but I wonder how biblical these so-called "churches" even are to hire such pastors to begin with?

Yes I think they should lose retirement and pension benefits.They were a counterfeit they did not believe in their heart in the beginning.

Well if they're atheists, then they arnt preaching Jesus anymore so in essence they are no longer pastors. With that said with how poorly treated pastors are today its amazing we don't have more turning from their faith.

In the U.S., pension plans are under the guidelines set up by the laws of the government. That means that if you have paid into a pension, or the company has paid under your behalf, that money is yours to collect upon retirement. The company might discontinue the pension plan, but those who already had one before the change, keep the money already in the plan. It might be that the change stops any further contributions, but what is there already is yours when you retire. It can not be taken away. The one exception in the law is for churches. Rather then face the issues with the feds overseeing church pension plans to make sure they are legal, churches were excluded from the requirements of the law. That means, a church could withhold a pension. It is legal to do that. Church related organizations who fall under the exclusion have done considerable damage to retirees. Imagine working for 27 years as a dedicated employee of a church or church related organization. Had a pension plan which is excluded from federal laws. That also means the church organization does not have to fully fund the pension plans. After 27 years, the pension fund is near 0 as the money was used for other things, and now, you have no pension. Since a church is not under the law, there is not regulating it, so there is nothing you can do. You no longer have the pension and not enough time to transfer to another group to build a pension. Ok, so a pastor who has worked at a church for 27 years has a crisis of faith (or more likely was not a biblical Christian at all) and becomes an atheist. The church can take away the pension because the feds do not regulate church pension plans, but in my view, the church promised to provide a pension. It is legal not to, but I see an issue in morality and failing to fulfill a promise. It comes down to, take away the pension, and the church has lied about providing the pension.

Okay, I think I understand where you're going with this now. Thanks for explaining it.

It does help if you are visiting someone's house with either your phone or tablet.... you can log right onto their wifi without a lot of hassle. At my house it would take ten minutes to type in the password and get through the firewall........ however at my house you simply are not getting my passwords.... so it's turned off. Also it makes it easier for the NSA to log on through your system if they are watching you.. But this isn't nearly as bad as the keystroke collection that Microsoft is asking for permission to upload.... that gets all of your passwords and every single thing you do and every place you go...... and that's crazy. Problem is, even if you say no, do they do it anyway and pay closer attention to the person saying no.

This is all good news and the rapid acceleration of the falling abortion rate means that the American people no longer believe that "fetuses" are un-human clumps of cells. PP or like some say PB (Planned Butcherhood) is finished, it's must a matter of time. Until then, let's help expedite the process and get on the phone with our Congressmen and encourage them to defund PP.

I like what is proposed about the ocean floor expanding, that makes sense, but would it expand enough to displace such amounts of water, especially that water is already holding the floor down? It is possible of course. I would not expect the entire basin to rise if this process took place, but that some places would remain low, and other places would rise and erupt underwater, producing very steep underwater volcanoes or spikes, which is what the ocean still has. I have never heard that theory before, thanks.

That gave me a chuckle. Me too until I understood the gravity of the truth behind it. Today it causes me sorrow.

That gave me a chuckle.

There were two kingdoms...Northern and Southern...both were full of error. Again I say unto you... There were two kingdoms...Roman Catholic and Protestant...both were full of error. Come Lord Jesus!

1 John was written so those who are in Yeshua may know they are in Yeshua - it says so right there. i.e. "to know" that you're in Him alive. keep seeking and testing and verifying or as it says we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and "be terrified" of what? "be terrified" lest anyone should fall short.... "be terrified" not be comfortable, not be at rest concerning this ... but also not "be terrified" all the time.... i.e. with 1st John, with Yeshua's salvation is Peace, Joy and Righteousness.... right along with "work out with fear and trembling" and "be terrified" .... all together , sort of (Yahweh understands - He breathed it) ... and we learn from Yahweh .... step by step... in and by sheer grace... not only 1st John.... all through Scripture (Psalms, Genesis, Joshua, Matthew) are descriptions , and all are true, of Yahweh's people, saved people, people living as He says, abiding in union , yes "in union" with Him in Yeshua... right now. today. "in union with God" --- "one with Him, as ABBA and Yeshua are "one" " .... from His Word -- not from observation of humans... (well, almost not... there are a few you might get to meet , ...... keep seeking from Yahweh, keep seeking Yahweh). Simplejeff, once again you are replying to a nearly two year old post, to people who left this forum a long time ago. I don't get it.

I guess if we want meat raised here in the USA, we should start raising it ourselves or start hunting speed beef (aka deer). Oldzimm

Dear Joe, thank you for that post. In it you said How were these 5 characteristics discovered? And by whom? You also said: Where do you find evidence for these statements regarding the type of questions your post alledges in the quote above? Where do you find evidence that the Church concluded the canon was closed in or around AD 144? Where did the guidelines you outline come from and where is that evidenced? You said Where do you find evidence this was the approach of those very early Christians around this time period?

Can you point us to the evidence that the 1st century church recognized all the books of the bible we have today as inspired?

How was this done? It was done by God putting up a roadblock at the end of Revelation. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. There are some who try to avoid the significance of this passage by telling us that it applies only to this book. But since John was the last apostle and he wrote this as the last prophecy from God, it should be evident that this roadblock applies to the entire canon of Scripture. The canon was completed and closed by about 90 AD. This is also a warning to all who would tamper with God's Word and God's Truth. We are to take extreme precautions that we DO NOT pervert anything that God has said lest we come under His judgment. How is it recognized that the book of Revelation is indeed inspired scripture? How is it recognized that works written before it and not in our NT are indeed not inspired? You said it was evident that the warning given at the end of the book of Revelation is for the entire scriptures, but why is it evident? I understand you claim it is because it was written by the last apostle. For that to be a valid reason there must be something more than that telling us that is how God works. How is it recognized that the warning at the end of Revelation is for the entire scripture and not just the book of Revelation?

Your father had the exact right way to do things God Bless, Hip Yes,you are right hippie that is the way it should be.

The word "saved" in, he who endures to the end will be saved, doesn't mean salvation, it means rescued.

My favourite Bible translation is the one from Hebrew and Greek into English. I can't read it otherwise. That's why French, German and Spanish Bibles are useless to me.

Here's food for thought too. In the late 1940s, Great Britain had the mightiest empire on Earth. She refused to acknowledge the forthcoming state of Israel and vetoed the attempts to create such a state. Within a couple of years her empire had gone! On top of that, the British held to the Bible as the Word of God until the demise of Queen Victoria. Many missionaries went out from the British Isles with the Gospel and many were saved. Since then they turned their backs on the Bible and Bible Truth (just like the USA, Canada, and the Rest of the West), and they suffered for it. The greater the light that is given, the greater is the judgment. Please note carefully what the Lord said to Capernaum and all the cities to which He went personally and was rejected. Their punishment would be greater than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.

InSeasonOut. First of all what is a pre-tojt? You didn't explain it. Secondly, this is a public forum. Do you think what we proclaim is only limited to only our reading? Anyone from all over the world can read what we say. What are we preaching to our brothers and sisters? What is our message to them and anyone else interested? What we are doing is to blowing the trumpet. Declaring before-hand what is coming, ..confirming the word already written thousands of years ago,..testifying of this wonderful truth we have been given......bringing it to everyones attention like the prophets did and the apostles, confirming over and over. Lets warn our brothers and sisters to spiritually prepare so that we can all start strengthening the things which are weak and finish what we started, enduring to the end. Storing up food and supplies will not help us one bit. In fact it is a sin. The material will not save us but the truth will. So we need to store up spiritual treasures in heaven which is truth. Only the truth will set us free, and we need to be witnesses to this truth. Without truth we will be in darkness, and when all these things happen, we can be spiritually prepared, so lets warn the brothers not to feel forsaken when the time comes, because we all have to go through it, but strengthen the things which are weak and spiritually prepare for battle. So we must start getting prepared by feeding on the truth, go back to the scriptures and see what they say and not man. Test everything. Let each and every one of us analyse ourselves whether we be walking in the spirit, and go back to the word of the Lord and see if we have been obeying his every commandment, ....check with ourselves if we have really come out of Babylon. Do a personal check list, we have the word, lets use it. Check if we have been feeding on Christ's flesh or strange flesh, check, check, check, go over, go back to the word and compare. Time to wake up all our brothers and sisters from their deep slumber. Christ warned us that if we are only luke-warm he will spew us out of his mouth. Listen to what he's saying. Every man will be accountable for every word he speaks. Let us not be too wise in our own opinions, but share with each other what the Lord has to say. Let's edify each other, and love one another, and not get offended because of the word.

How is the earth reserved for destruction by fire when vast amounts of water are trapped in the crust? Firstly we accept that God is telling the truth in the Bible, we don't try to explain it away. After all did not God burn the stone and the water of Elijah's altar? Peter said that men today are ignorant of the flood and ignorant of the coming destruction, not to mention how the same earth is kept in store for fire. In many places in the Bible you will find that God is able to set the mountains on fire, to cause them to melt, to disappear and to slip into the sea, whole islands can disappear, as they will when He returns. He warned Israel about this, and interestingly, although apostate Jerusalem was burned by Rome, the mountains were not melted down as God had warned. So we know that He was talking about the final end of the world which is yet to come. Hot lava in the earth, can remain so for thousands of years without erupting, it will just smolder away, cooling down in some places and moving along to heat other places up, but when it hits water, the heat process is suddenly accelerated due to the fact that steam multiplies the pressure which in turn causes it to heat up rapidly. That process is only as dangerous as the amount of water in the rocks. See Isaiah 64: 1-3. So there are underground explosions which cause earthquakes, and if these explosions cannot equalize the pressure, it builds up and causes chemical reactions in the rocks which heat the lava up tenfold and cause such a great explosion that it erupts into a volcano. So earth quakes and volcanoes are caused by the same process and not by what science has proposed for many years. In Australia we had tremendous monsoonal type rainfall a few years ago. A Bible student wrote to the media and predicted that earthquakes will occur in the middle of Australia, because the water would go deep into the dry desert and reach hot spots. Australia has never recorded earthquake activity in the middle of its desert, so the article was dismissed and deleted. It predicted that within two years there would be earthquakes in the middle of Australia and in places where there have been none before. I think it was within 18 months that Australia experienced its first earthquake, right in the middle as predicted. The very elements which we think should prevent the earth from dissolving into a sea of fire are the same elements that do the job. So the water in the earth, is what God has reserved in the earth for the day of judgement, when all the prophecies of the end will come true. Deuteronomy 32:22 The very foundations of the mountains will be set on fire. The Bible goes into detail how this is all triggered in the first place, but that is another topic. In the mean time, areas along mountain chains and especially coasts, where water meets earth, are experiencing regular and increasing earthquakes, both in number and magnitude, and in "diverse places" or different locations as the Bible puts it. But people are not alarmed and believe the earth will carry on for a long time, and while they openly mock God, the ground beneath is prepared to respond with justice.

What do you think our response should be to evil?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a). So Galatians 3:28 can only mean there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b). Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13). Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a). Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that. Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that. Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2). Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8). All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22). And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5). Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8). Regarding Hebrews 6, note that verses 4-8 show that even saved people today, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13). One way a saved person today could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4). Another way a saved person today could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13). This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). Note that no scripture says or requires that the 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24) are for the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11). The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church". Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38). For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8). Note that in Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant became evil and was surprised by the Lord's return, because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the evil servant thought the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact, the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when believers know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14). Amen. And note that the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36). No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23). For note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Depends on the evil. For instance certain things we should try and stop. If we see or know of someone actively causing harm to someone, we should try and stop it. Prayer should always be a part of it, but I wouldnt hesitate to try and stop someone from causing harm. Especially if its a crime that has a known likelihood of happening again. Like the stuff the rcc didnt bother to stop.

Of course, what do you expect in this fallen World? Evil is hiding in plain sight but the World ignores it.

Unfortunately the even was not just not 'urgent' enough for the dispatcher to take it seriously. Had the caller phoned to report a 'real' emergency such as some Christian saying homophobic things or somebody criticising Islam, the dispatcher would have stayed on the line and sent cop cars, ambulances and the fire brigade to the scene quicker than you can "Mohammed".

That statement automatically disqualifies you from further discussion about this subject. Since Scripture blows this designation "out of proportion" your attempt to minimize its importance speaks volume. As I said before, Retro, you seem to engage in adjusting God's truth to suit your fancies, and lengthy dissertations do not change that fact. In fact lengthy dissertations do not follow the pattern of the Lord and His apostles, who were concise, brief, and to the point. As I have mentioned above, Christians today have generally have failed to grasp the significance of this designation, and mostly speak simply of "Jesus" or "Yeshua". That is not what God would have us do. Oh, hogwash. It’s not 'Scripture blows this designation "out of proportion”’; it’s people’s INTERPRETATION of Scripture that blows this designation “out of proportion!" And, the Lord and His apostles didn’t have to contend with a people who didn’t understand their own Bible’s language; therefore, they could afford to be “concise, brief, and to the point.” It’s like trying to explain how electricity works to a third-world people who have never even used electricity before! FIRST, one must develop a working knowledge of what electricity is, preferably with working models as examples, so that THEN one can try to explain how that electricity works. People today have been taught so much ... GARBAGE ... that they’re not even on the same page as the believers of the first century were! For instance, to say that Yeshua` was “Lord” does NOT automatically mean that He is God! It means that He is our MASTER! It’s not an exclusive designation for Him; it’s a term of RESPECT and used as we would use the word “Sir” or “Sire!” We can hold Him in our highest respect as our future, benevolent, worthy King! When Yeshua` is said to become a “King of kings,” it means that He shall be a WORLD EMPEROR, and as such, “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua` ("He shall rescue"), God's Messiah, is MASTER to the glory of God the Father!” (Philippians 2:9-11) I'll agree with most who have already answered. Your knowledge of Hebrew appears to be from a concordance, and not knowledge of the language, and grammar which makes all the difference as to how to actually understand what is being said. The term 'the Lord Jesus Christ' is a very very powerful and unique term. Anyone in the first century Israel would have clearly understood what is being said as that term is so unique, and a long awaited prophetic fulfillment. Throughout the NT, it is very clear the Jesus is God. There are no reasonable doubts as to what Jesus is saying about Himself.

Done! While I am at it, some of you might like this article as it touches quite a bit on the remarkable nature of DNA, to me, DNA reeks of design.

Smokescreen? No. This is caving in to pressure from lobbyists by our intrepid members of Congress. I can't think of one of them that I would want as janitor at my local high school. notice, while we were all up in arms over the confederate flag, the supreme court legalized gay marriage and congress ram rodded a controversial trade bill through. Now, your all up in arms, over beef. You know what? so what, meat is meat. Want to know where it comes from? by straight from the rancher. Thats what I do with my beef. Right now is about the time we should be watching what theyre really up to-worrying about a label, on our meat package, is rather insignificant, in the long run. Be more worried what they dont want you to look at. . .

We do need it. Without it there would be tyranny and by that I mean it would make what we have now would look like anarchy. The checks and balances Congress supplies is the only reason we've lasted as long as we have.

The other day I was sitting in the waiting room to have radiation therapy observing others around me. The staff walked around with large smiles and pleasant manners. All around me heads with wigs that didn't quite sit right were buried in newspapers, word pads and mobile phones. Someone got up to go and get a cup of tea. Others were accompanied by a friend or a family member trying not to look embarrassed or worried. Carol my nurse was browsing some dreadful woman's magazine. Small polite conversation, faces that conveyed the,” Wish I was not here”, were all around me. It’s strange how we all deal with different circumstances. We can say or even think that when the going gets tough we will stand up and be counted. Where do we really draw our strength from? Psa 28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him. Hang on moment! Ever tried singing in this waiting room? I mean it smells of death, this is the last place anyone would wish to come and sit in for a cup of tea or to pass away a few hours in the day. It's depressive , it's the anti camera,(anteroom) to something else. Only sick people come here, why would you wish to be here? Even the colour scheme is appalling,,, not to mention the curtains,,, as for the tea , it doesn't bear talking about. A young nurse comes and calls my name, I go and change into some ridiculous gown that lets the wind contact you in places that the wind has no place to be. Stepping out of the cubical, I hand over my possessions, keys, wallet and Iphone. The phone bleeps, it’s a text message from Fez in South Africa,,,,, I grab the phone back to read it. Text message quote, “I am in the middle of Makuze game reserve, off road and by myself. I pray that you feel the peace in your soul that this place conveys to me Nigel. Green, cool , the sound of birds everywhere and a wilderbesast snorting in the distance. No other sounds. You are not alone. GBU.” I place the phone back into the bin and climb onto the table,,,,, the complicated mechanism of the bed and laser lights are adjusted. The rooms lights go down and I'm left alone,,,, music is softly playing in the back ground; classical as per my daily request. My mind wanders, I can feel the peace. Isaiah 41:10 10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness God never leaves us, not for one moment, we just have to know where to look for HIM ,,,,,,,,,,,and really,,, Let me tell you,,, He is just a prayer away; HE supplies our every need even through the smallest text message from a friend. Oh,,.and yes,,,, you can sing in this place ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I did.

Here's the link: http://www.jakecolsen.com/JakeStory.pdf

I believe this you are speaking of "I am puzzled by Jesus' words that he who endures to the end shall be saved" companions this comment by John 1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. KJV

Dear Kwik, I will definitely have a look. Thank you for thinking of me. Oops, the link didn't work. Dan

Dear Gray Wolf, I read a little book on-line,a very quick read (only 135 pages)and I could only think of you when I finished it.....I know you don't see what I see, I see Christ in you my friend...I think you may enjoy thjs book,it is quite liberating.....http://www.jakecolse...m/JakeStory.pdf Check it out.....Jesus loves you....... With love in Christ Kwik

Thanks for your kind words and encouragemen Dant

amen

another important need would be to keep your point short, which I need to do myself, but also don't repeat yourself, at least not in the same post, Also please read the other people's post. how many times have I posted something and someone will ask something or say can you please give scriptural reference( which was in my post) in their very next post, of course loop back to keep your post short, would help other's to read your post, how many times have I been turned away from reading, simply because of the length of the post. can I get a witness?

I bought a bag of socks at Wal-Mart today ...the price was $6.66 - Wal Mart is financing the Anti-Christ