Pre trib rapture is fake

[Montana Marv]

16 minutes ago, Sister said:

Montana Marv

We cannot come to God unless we go through HIS WORD.  If we don't read for ourselves and let the spirit teach us, we are open to deception.  If we really want to know our God, we have to go directly to his Word.  If one gets confused in the beginning and makes a few mistakes whilst he's searching there is leeway. God knows the heart. 

The seeker has to "grow" in the word and only then will he see his mistakes as he searches deeper.  The holy spirit will guide him and correct him.  If after 20 years there is no change, despite a doctrine being  proved contrary to scripture then it is a salvation issue in my opinion.  He has stayed in captivity thinking he is free.  Not only that he has stamped the truth along the way, but he doesn't know it, and that's the twist.  That's where he will stay, because his heart is not after the truth.

Only Christ can take one out of captivity by opening ones eyes, but we have to meet him half way and that is to search out his word.  Many are trusting in their church to give them doctrine and just accept no questions asked.  When challenged they "attack" instead of having a proper discussion.  It suddenly becomes personal.  This is how we know them by their fruits.  They are like cornered caged animals.

Sister

Your response is false. Most come to the Lord by changed lives in others. Their witness. Some never see the Scripture until after Salvation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

13 minutes ago, Sister said:

And this is something that would not come out of the mouth of a mature Christian when handling the Word of life.  This is kindergarten talk.

Sister

Why then do then know when the Rapture is, if you are notGod the Father.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[HeartSearcher]

Well seeing how I am late to the party My input may have already been said or maybe isn't even relative for this discussion but as for the pretrib rapture being true or not I used to have an opinion on that subject. I used to be a very hardcore pretrib rapture believer but I was also every young and very inexperienced as a Chrisitan not that i'm still not I have only been one for three and half years but I also didn't have very discernment back then.

I was really into the rapture hype the spiritual high of it which is also what I have seen others having as well not all but some yes. I would go to youtube searching every dream and vision of the rapture listening to anyone who cl.aimed to be a prophet or a teacher who had visions and dreams of the rapture. I saw them all as true because I wanted it to be true, I wanted the rapture to happen sooooo badly I wanted to go home soooo badly but I was so blind I couldn't see that I didn't want this for the right reason.

I sought after such ppl and youtubers to feed my spiritual high to see that one dream or vision or prophet that would prove without a doubt it's finally time to go home and I stopped living for God in this world I just wanted to go home it's all that was ever on my mind.

but time and time again these prophets these teachers would say something will happen or that God showed them in a dream or vision how close the rapture is and they fell short everytime making the same excuse that God delayed the rapture out of mercy and yet ppl still to this follow these very same ppl and accept their excuse as truth. But I became spiritually worn out from all of this time and time again their predictions never once came true in the least bit the word rapture itself wore me out inside and these prophets and teachers on youtube mislead me too many times and so I cut off the rapture and the end times and simply sought after God's heart. He still though continued to show me prophetic dreams about the end times he still showed me the rapture more times than I can count but the difference being my focus was not on it.

 

I have been damaged beyond repair from these ppl on youtube, they have no idea the damage they are doing to people I am living proof. But good came of it I began to look at things from a different perspective the pre mid and post rapture beliefs that I was blind to before I could see clearly, as a hard core pre trib believer it was so easy to find scripture to what I believed and saw I was not only blind but totally disregarded any scripture that contradicted my view I only saw in the scriptures what I wanted to see.

But now I can see scriptural evidence to support all of the rapture doctrines because I am looking at them from a person on the sidelines view having neither a pre mid or post belief not a solid one at least and it taught me a lot and I grew as a believer very quickly. I also realized that I wanted to go home just to go home I had convinced myself it was to be with Jesus but if I was to be honest it was not and It made me stop living for him in this world.

 

The only thing I do know is that a storm is coming the likes this world has never seen and it appears to be far away but is actually very near rapidly approaching it will seem far of but then suddenly will be at our door after all sudden destruction does not warn of it's coming nor does it announce it's soon arrival so we can prepare it's sudden meaning seemingly out of nowhere.

it doesn't matter to me if the rapture will happen as pre mid or post we must have our hearts prepared for any of the scenarios of it, when this storm whatever it is comes if our hearts are not prepared none of us will stand

Edited April 4, 2016 by HeartSearcher

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

And that last little phrase -- "and the great tribulation" -- you just slip in as though you had proved it.

The Great Presumption of pre-tribbers: that the Wrath of God is the same as the Great Tribulation. Not a single verse in scripture supports this doctrine of pre-trib, but you all just say it as if it was a proven fact anyway.

Daniel's 70^th week is not divided out in format thus God calls this time His Wrath

Another Great Presumption not stated in Scripture.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

Rv 6:15-17

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

It is explicitly called The Wrath of The Lamb... 

"It" -- presumably meaning the Great Tribulation -- is NOT "explicity called the Wrath of the Lamb" in Scripture. YOU call it the Wrath of the Lamb. BIG difference.

Will there be a time of God's Wrath upon unbelievers and rebels? Yes.

Is it ever called the Great Tribulation in Scripture? No.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why perpetuate a fallacy?  I will heed the word of Paul and not be deceived by imminence.  You should too.

That passage (2 Thess 2:1-12) should be read and understood carefully. The Day of the Lord (which corresponds to the Tribulation Period and the time of God's wrath) will not come until there come a falling away first, and then the Man of Sin is revealed.  The Thessalonians were being misled by some that the Day of the Lord was at hand.

When Paul says "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him..." what he is saying is that Christians must not confuse the Rapture with the Day of the Lord. The Rapture is for the saints, the Day of the Lord is for the unbelieving and the ungodly.  If anything, Paul is reiterating the imminence of the Rapture.

[Ezra]

13 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

Lol, like it would be ridiculous no matter who said it, but especially when SS says it right?  Is that really necessary or relevant to the conversation for someone such as yourself to say.

That post was not addressed to you in the first place.  Secondly it is SS who brought up "another God" with MG.  Therefore it is for him to clarify his position, since he is also the one who continues on with his ideas of mixing the Old and New Covenants, and sowing confusion in the midst of Christians.  Paul had some very serious rebukes for those who tried to persist with the Old Covenant. 

[((Michael))]

I'm a newb and am trying to build up some posts. Since this seems to be a popular topic on here, I'm reposting my thoughts from another.....

I believe the rapture is something new as far as doctrines. I've read that the rapture doctrine was introduced into mainstream by a Thomas Darby in 1832. I believe the Jews who grew up reading the Tanakh understood there was a resurrection of the dead on the last day, and that God would bring His Kingdom here on earth in Jerusalem ( hope I'm saying this correct ). Look at the Acts 1:6-7

Acts 1:6-7 ⁶ So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” ⁷ He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Christ never rebuked them for implying what they had understood reading all the prophets, that a kingdom would be brought to earth. The rapture I see in scripture is a rapture of the wicked. Take a look at the parable of the wheat and the tares

Matthew 13:40-42 ⁴⁰ So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. ⁴¹ The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, ⁴² and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also, you have scriptures that all point this "Last Day".....scriptures that suggest that Eternal Life is given "Last Day......Ressurrection happens "Last Day"...........Judgement is given "Last Day", look at the following passages about the last day:

John 11:24(NASB)²⁴ Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

John 12:48(NASB)⁴⁸ He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 6:40(NASB)⁴⁰ For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

 

I can't say I know for 100% certain whether there is no rapture or not. But I will say this, I think it's dangerous for any church or member of the body of Christ to think they will not have to endure the worst of times in tribulation. Matthew 24:22 (NKJV)²² And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

[MorningGlory]

8 hours ago, Sister said:

I think it is a salvation issue.

  Luke 11:9   And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

  Luke 11:10   For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 Luke 11:11   If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

  Luke 11:12   Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

  Luke 11:13   If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

Only the holy spirit can reveal the truth, the truth doesn't come through any other way.  If the truth is not given then it is a salvation issue in my opinion.  God does not give us lies instead of truth, if he does, then there is something wrong within our spirit and we have to go back to the drawing board.  Read Luke 11:9 a hundred times until it sinks in.  The drawing board is the scriptures, seek the scriptures, not opinions.

And when we humble ourselves before him and can admit to others that we have been corrected because of the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, then grace will be given.  Only if we love TRUTH.

 

No, it is NOT a salvational issue.  God isn't going to rip away your salvation if you get the date wrong since He is the one who told us no one knows the date.  Since He is silent on that subject, forming an opinion or theory is not a lie.  After all, you plaster YOUR opinions all over this site, all the time. 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

That passage (2 Thess 2:1-12) should be read and understood carefully. The Day of the Lord (which corresponds to the Tribulation Period and the time of God's wrath) will not come until there come a falling away first, and then the Man of Sin is revealed.  The Thessalonians were being misled by some that the Day of the Lord was at hand.

When Paul says "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him..." what he is saying is that Christians must not confuse the Rapture with the Day of the Lord. The Rapture is for the saints, the Day of the Lord is for the unbelieving and the ungodly.  If anything, Paul is reiterating the imminence of the Rapture.

Error begets error.  Let the scriptures speak plainly.

• Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

What does this passage plainly reveal?

• We are gathered together to Christ at His coming.
• Christ's coming and our gathering to Him happen on the day of the Lord.
• That event will not happen until after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.

Our gathering to Him at His coming is clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

• For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.

These verses show that the rapture is on the day of the Lord which is at His coming.  Your "carefully understood explanation" fails because you do not distinguish between "the day of the Lord", "the tribulation period", and "God's wrath".  Since the foundation isn't square, neither will the rest of the building be.

[MorningGlory]

5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Error begets error.  Let the scriptures speak plainly.

• Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

What does this passage plainly reveal?

• We are gathered together to Christ at His coming.
• Christ's coming and our gathering to Him happen on the day of the Lord.
• That event will not happen until after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.

Our gathering to Him at His coming is clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

• For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.

These verses show that the rapture is on the day of the Lord which is at His coming.  Your "carefully understood explanation" fails because you do not distinguish between "the day of the Lord", "the tribulation period", and "God's wrath".  Since the foundation isn't square, neither will the rest of the building be.

Your points don't add up to anything but a PreTrib Rapture.  But you're entitled to your theory.