Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[iamlamad]

All the church of whom are those who hold the testimony of Jesus are required to drink from the bit cup of Christ. This bitter cup is death. No one can escape death and rapture is an escape route. Jesus said many times to be faithful onto death.

Saint Paul states that every man is destined to die once then judgement. Most importantly you cannot inherit eternal life to be with Christ unless you first die.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The blood covenant requires your death to be posted before you can inherit your eternal life. Noah's days has the central theme which is death.

Matthew 24:36-41

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The central theme to the taking away is death. When the food took them away they all died. The one that is taken implies that they die. So the word taken or raptured is a Jewish idiom for being killed or dying. Like the expression take him out, can mean to take him our if the room or to kill him. Being taken according to the Noah's days is the central theme which is death.

No one knows for certain the day or hour they will be taken out of this earthly life. No one knows when they will die.

Matthew 24:42-44

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The above versus places the Lord's coming for that individual on the day and hour where the thief comes to destroy your earthly house. This is another Jewish idiom, where thief is not a literal thief but according to the central theme that is death mentioned above, the thief is death itself. The earthly house is your earthly tent which is your body.

Matthew 24:50-51

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Lord comes for every departed. This is the Lord's appearing mentioned by Saint Paul in the epistles. So it the saying goes, death will bring you to your maker on a day and hour that you do not know and are not prepared for.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:20-27

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28

You will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds (his host of heaven, the holy ones), when you die.

How do you think how all eyes will see him?

Revelation 1:7

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

All eyes will see him because death brings us before The Lord for judgement:

Hebrews 9:27

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment.

What did Jesus tell the high priest?

Matthew 26:63-64

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus tells the high priest from NOW ON all of you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

When did this happen to the high priest, if Jesus said from now on meaning in the immediate future. What would bring the high priest before his maker for judgement?

Death. Therefore all eyes will see him.

Saint Paul when ready to be killed comforted congregation by his letter by saying that he is now ready to be presented for judgement before The Lord at his appearing, to be awarded the crown of righteousness, meaning eternal life. So when did the appearing of The Lord happen to Saint Paul?

When he was killed. He also comforted the congregation by saying that their deaths on their own unique day and hour will also present them before The Lord. That day that Saint Paul was speaking about is when the faithful in Christ dies.

2 Timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

The church is bought under the blood covenant and it necessitates that its witnesses must also drink from the bitter cup of Christ and to also die before they are judged worthy to be numbered amongst his angelic white cloud, of his measured inner court.

Now let us address the tribulation question.

Read the versus below carefully.

Revelation 7:9-14

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Under the blood covenant. The church is represented by all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. All of these are those who hold the testimony of Jesus for they are Christians. What happens to them?

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The church goes through the great tribulation and is not pardoned from death. The mistake that pre-trib make is they associate death with the wrath of God, when the fact remains that the beast of the bottomless Pitt who is satan emerges in flesh to destroy the church who are a symbol of the two witnesses. The wrath of God is unleashed upon the inhabitants of earth only after the church is martyred across the world by satan incarnate in flesh as the earthly messiah. Satan's followers will not thing to be the devil, but their messiah, for he is the king of this world.

What was said to those departed crying under the altar of God in Revelation 6:9-11?

To be patient and wait for their brothers to also die and enter in through the resurrection by making their white angelic robes white by the blood of the lamb of God.

We cannot be oriented before The risen Lord unless we die and inherit the Holy Spirit body of an angel.

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The first time we were born from our earthly mothers and inherited the sin of Adam. So the second time without sin when we are presented before The Lord, is when we are raised as one of the holy ones (angelic white cloud) that the risen lord resides with.

There is no earthly second of Christ. It is the believer who is drawn to Christ from death and into resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This post is pretty much gobbledygook.

 

There will be some that will NOT die physically: they will be "caught up" with alive and instantly changed into a resurrection body. However, to qualify for this event, one must have died previously. As Paul wrote, when one is born again, their spirit person (the Old Man) is put to death, and God creates a totally new spirit man with the Holy Spirit indwelling the newly created human spirit. It is in truth a NEW YOU! The Old you was nailed to the cross.

 

This new spirit has been raised to sit in heavenly places in Christ, far above all principalities and powers. But make no mistake, the day will come when Jesus WILL APPEAR and come FOR His saints. He will not come to the earth, but will stop in the air and we will be caught up to heaven. Again, make no mistake, Jesus will yet come again AFTER that coming, WITH His saints. Then every eye will see Him. HOW? It will be dark for days on end, and suddenly will come a light brighter than the sun, lighting up the sky as lightning. without much doubt, He will be caught on cameras so that every eye will see Him, This time He will be coming for BATTLE.

 

It is all laid out in scripture. Our job is to BELIEVE IT.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

My words in Green

 

 

Ha ha! This theory is as far-fetched as some of your others! Be careful talking to others about clues when it is your theory that misses them all.  Jesus was speaking of a FUTURE abomination, not a past one. Antiochus became a TYPE of the Revelation Beast, because he did something very similar, slaughtering a PIG on the altar and then setting up an image of ZEUS.  Did it just go RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD that the temple had to be CLEANSED before the daily sacrifices could resume again? Now, see the proof of what I say:
 

 

It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state.

 

Yes, Antiochus IV (165-170 B.C.) was ALREADY DEAD when Jesus forewarned of the coming "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, per Matt.24 and Mark 13:

 

Matt.24

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Mark 13

¹⁴ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world, especially since in those Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters He was giving us the signs of the end of this world just prior to His coming, which parallel the 6 Seals of Rev.6.

 

Then you say:

 

"This is speaking of ANTIOCHUS. When the Macabees finally overthrew them. the temple had to be cleansed."

 

 

But note what that Dan.8 Scripture points directly to:

 

Dan.8

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

 

How is it you recognize Antiochus IV as an antitype or blueprint for that "abomination of desolation" event, which is about ending the daily sacrifice and placing an idol abomination in its place, BUT... you REFUSE to admit it's the one for the end, the coming Antichrist, that Jesus was pointing to for the days just prior to His coming???

 

If that Dan.8 Scripture was meant historically only about Antiochus IV, then so would Dan.9:27, Dan.11:31, and Dan.12:1-13! And if that were true, then it would mean NO "abomination of desolation" event to occur ever again after Antiochus! Obviously, the deceived orthodox unbelieving Jews would love you for agreeing with them, because that's how many of them see that "abomination of desolation" as fulfilled already!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Persuaded]

 

 

 

It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state.

 

 

 

Allow me to offer the strongest possible rebuke against this reprehensible statement.

 

[1Sa 26:9 KJV] ...for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S anointed, and be guiltless?

(David, speaking of Saul)

[other one]

[[[[Here we go again,  Pretribbers what do you have]]]]]

 

 

Well, I'm not a pretribber, but what I have is a headache from reading all these posts.

[iamlamad]

 

My words in Green

 

 

Ha ha! This theory is as far-fetched as some of your others! Be careful talking to others about clues when it is your theory that misses them all.  Jesus was speaking of a FUTURE abomination, not a past one. Antiochus became a TYPE of the Revelation Beast, because he did something very similar, slaughtering a PIG on the altar and then setting up an image of ZEUS.  Did it just go RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD that the temple had to be CLEANSED before the daily sacrifices could resume again? Now, see the proof of what I say:

 

 

It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state.

 

Yes, Antiochus IV (165-170 B.C.) was ALREADY DEAD when Jesus forewarned of the coming "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, per Matt.24 and Mark 13:

 

Matt.24

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Mark 13

¹⁴ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world, especially since in those Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters He was giving us the signs of the end of this world just prior to His coming, which parallel the 6 Seals of Rev.6.

 

Then you say:

 

"This is speaking of ANTIOCHUS. When the Macabees finally overthrew them. the temple had to be cleansed."

 

 

But note what that Dan.8 Scripture points directly to:

 

Dan.8

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

 

How is it you recognize Antiochus IV as an antitype or blueprint for that "abomination of desolation" event, which is about ending the daily sacrifice and placing an idol abomination in its place, BUT... you REFUSE to admit it's the one for the end, the coming Antichrist, that Jesus was pointing to for the days just prior to His coming???

 

If that Dan.8 Scripture was meant historically only about Antiochus IV, then so would Dan.9:27, Dan.11:31, and Dan.12:1-13! And if that were true, then it would mean NO "abomination of desolation" event to occur ever again after Antiochus! Obviously, the deceived orthodox unbelieving Jews would love you for agreeing with them, because that's how many of them see that "abomination of desolation" as fulfilled already!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Salty, we cannot cherry pick favorite scriptures and ignore the rest. You must leave all of Daniel 8 IN CONTEXT.

This is the angel's summary:

 

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

This is speaking of the days of Alexander the Great. HE was the great horn. When He died, the Kingdom was divided up and

 Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater took over Alexander's kingdom. Seleucus got the area of Syria. The empire took the southern part of Turkey east all the way to the border of India. Indeed, he became the first "king of the North."  Ptolemy got most of Israel, but pretty much left them alone. he was the first "king of the South. it was not until Antiochus the 3rd, Antiochus  Epiphanes father, that the Seleucids controlled Palestine. By the time Antiochus Epiphanes became ruler, the empire had shrunk to a tiny portion of what it was under his father's rule. Verse 23 is about Antiochus Epiphanes.  Note that it says in the "latter time of THEIR kindgom....WHO IS "THEIR?"  it is  Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater, or the GRECIAN kingdom. The rest of the chapter is  therefore about Antiochus Epiphanes. It is the context that proves this.

 

CONTEXT then reigns supreme on forming beliefs from scripture. You wrote, "It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state."  On the contrary, I go by scripture, not man's theories.

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world

 

So what? What does what Jesus said have to do with what was HISTORY in His day, when He was speaking of the future? Daniel also spoke of an abomination in chapter 9 (NOT Antiochus' abomination)  and that is what is still future to us today.

 

Yes, Antiochus IV (165-170 B.C.) was ALREADY DEAD when Jesus forewarned of the coming "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, per Matt.24 and Mark 13:

 

So what? Jesus was not talking about Antiochus, He was talking about the abomination that is future to us today. Do you think it strange that God knew  about BOTH abominations when Daniel wrote, and had Daniel cover BOTH of them?

 

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world, especially since in those Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters He was giving us the signs of the end of this world just prior to His coming, which parallel the 6 Seals of Rev.6.

 

I agree 100% with this. But Jesus was not quoting from Daniel 8, which is all about Antiochus Epiphanes. Why is it so hard for you to believe that God would show Daniel BOTH of these events? The days they lived under Antiochus were TERRIBLE days to live. Mothers had their male babies murdered and fastened around their necks, until they rotted off, only because they disobeyed Antouchus and circumcised their male children. It was impossible to follow the Law under Antiochus' reign. Yet, their conscience caused them to follow the law no matter what the consequences. This was a time of "great tribulation," just not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.

 

Then you say:  "This is speaking of ANTIOCHUS. When the Macabees finally overthrew them. the temple had to be cleansed."

 

I DID say that because it is TRUTH. Do you NOT BELIEVE that Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifices? It is a fact of history and it would be very silly to deny it ever happened. By the way, Antiochus was a TYPE of the beast, not the antitype.

 

you REFUSE to admit it's the one for the end, the coming Antichrist, that Jesus was pointing to for the days just prior to His coming???

 

You have misunderstood me. I have never said such a thing. OF COURSE Jesus was pointing to a future time of great tribulation and a time when the daily sacrifices will be stopped. However, Daniel 8 is about Antiochus, NOT THE BEAST of Rev. 13. So the 2300 days was about HISTORY, not the future.

 

If that Dan.8 Scripture was meant historically only about Antiochus IV, then so would Dan.9:27, Dan.11:31, and Dan.12:1-13!

 

NOT SO! Why is it so hard for you to believe that Daniel wrote of BOTH of these events? Chapter 8 was and is about Antiochus, but all the rest, including chapter 7, is about our future. However, some of chapter 11, before verse 36, is also about Antiochus.

 

We need to really study these things, not just read over them and take someone else's word for what is meant. And always remember, CONTEXT cannot ever be ignored: verses (like the 2300 days) cannot be pulled from their context. The entire chapter 8 is about Alexander the Great and then his four generals and finally Antiochus Epiphanes.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

[[[[Here we go again,  Pretribbers what do you have]]]]]

 

 

Well, I'm not a pretribber, but what I have is a headache from reading all these posts.

Ha ha! How funny!

 

LAMAD

[Marilyn C]

Hi Lamad,

 

I agree with some of what you have said (#132)  but not - `Jesus will come again after that coming, WITH His saints.` Can you prove from scripture that Jesus comes (at the second coming, Armageddon) with HIS SAINTS?

 

 

`This new spirit has been raised to sit in heavenly places in Christ, far above all principalities and powers. But make no mistake, the day will come when Jesus WILL APPEAR and come FOR His saints. He will not come to the earth, but will stop in the air and we will be caught up to heaven. Again, make no mistake, Jesus will yet come again AFTER that coming, WITH His saints. Then every eye will see Him. HOW? It will be dark for days on end, and suddenly will come a light brighter than the sun, lighting up the sky as lightning. without much doubt, He will be caught on cameras so that every eye will see Him, This time He will be coming for BATTLE.`

 

Thank you.

 

[Defending the Name]

All the church of whom are those who hold the testimony of Jesus are required to drink from the bit cup of Christ. This bitter cup is death. No one can escape death and rapture is an escape route. Jesus said many times to be faithful onto death.

Saint Paul states that every man is destined to die once then judgement. Most importantly you cannot inherit eternal life to be with Christ unless you first die.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The blood covenant requires your death to be posted before you can inherit your eternal life. Noah's days has the central theme which is death.

Matthew 24:36-41

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The central theme to the taking away is death. When the food took them away they all died. The one that is taken implies that they die. So the word taken or raptured is a Jewish idiom for being killed or dying. Like the expression take him out, can mean to take him our if the room or to kill him. Being taken according to the Noah's days is the central theme which is death.

No one knows for certain the day or hour they will be taken out of this earthly life. No one knows when they will die.

Matthew 24:42-44

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The above versus places the Lord's coming for that individual on the day and hour where the thief comes to destroy your earthly house. This is another Jewish idiom, where thief is not a literal thief but according to the central theme that is death mentioned above, the thief is death itself. The earthly house is your earthly tent which is your body.

Matthew 24:50-51

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Lord comes for every departed. This is the Lord's appearing mentioned by Saint Paul in the epistles. So it the saying goes, death will bring you to your maker on a day and hour that you do not know and are not prepared for.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:20-27

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28

You will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds (his host of heaven, the holy ones), when you die.

How do you think how all eyes will see him?

Revelation 1:7

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

All eyes will see him because death brings us before The Lord for judgement:

Hebrews 9:27

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment.

What did Jesus tell the high priest?

Matthew 26:63-64

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus tells the high priest from NOW ON all of you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

When did this happen to the high priest, if Jesus said from now on meaning in the immediate future. What would bring the high priest before his maker for judgement?

Death. Therefore all eyes will see him.

Saint Paul when ready to be killed comforted congregation by his letter by saying that he is now ready to be presented for judgement before The Lord at his appearing, to be awarded the crown of righteousness, meaning eternal life. So when did the appearing of The Lord happen to Saint Paul?

When he was killed. He also comforted the congregation by saying that their deaths on their own unique day and hour will also present them before The Lord. That day that Saint Paul was speaking about is when the faithful in Christ dies.

2 Timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

The church is bought under the blood covenant and it necessitates that its witnesses must also drink from the bitter cup of Christ and to also die before they are judged worthy to be numbered amongst his angelic white cloud, of his measured inner court.

Now let us address the tribulation question.

Read the versus below carefully.

Revelation 7:9-14

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Under the blood covenant. The church is represented by all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. All of these are those who hold the testimony of Jesus for they are Christians. What happens to them?

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The church goes through the great tribulation and is not pardoned from death. The mistake that pre-trib make is they associate death with the wrath of God, when the fact remains that the beast of the bottomless Pitt who is satan emerges in flesh to destroy the church who are a symbol of the two witnesses. The wrath of God is unleashed upon the inhabitants of earth only after the church is martyred across the world by satan incarnate in flesh as the earthly messiah. Satan's followers will not thing to be the devil, but their messiah, for he is the king of this world.

What was said to those departed crying under the altar of God in Revelation 6:9-11?

To be patient and wait for their brothers to also die and enter in through the resurrection by making their white angelic robes white by the blood of the lamb of God.

We cannot be oriented before The risen Lord unless we die and inherit the Holy Spirit body of an angel.

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The first time we were born from our earthly mothers and inherited the sin of Adam. So the second time without sin when we are presented before The Lord, is when we are raised as one of the holy ones (angelic white cloud) that the risen lord resides with.

There is no earthly second of Christ. It is the believer who is drawn to Christ from death and into resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This post is pretty much gobbledygook.

 

There will be some that will NOT die physically: they will be "caught up" with alive and instantly changed into a resurrection body. However, to qualify for this event, one must have died previously. As Paul wrote, when one is born again, their spirit person (the Old Man) is put to death, and God creates a totally new spirit man with the Holy Spirit indwelling the newly created human spirit. It is in truth a NEW YOU! The Old you was nailed to the cross.

 

This new spirit has been raised to sit in heavenly places in Christ, far above all principalities and powers. But make no mistake, the day will come when Jesus WILL APPEAR and come FOR His saints. He will not come to the earth, but will stop in the air and we will be caught up to heaven. Again, make no mistake, Jesus will yet come again AFTER that coming, WITH His saints. Then every eye will see Him. HOW? It will be dark for days on end, and suddenly will come a light brighter than the sun, lighting up the sky as lightning. without much doubt, He will be caught on cameras so that every eye will see Him, This time He will be coming for BATTLE.

 

It is all laid out in scripture. Our job is to BELIEVE IT.

 

LAMAD

Firstly friend I tried my best to explain scripture so that you can be edified and there was no reply to what I had originally stated. But that is ok, I will try again.

You are basing your whole based thinking on words that you don't really understand in context. For example you stated the following;

" they will be "caught up" with alive and instantly changed into a resurrection body"

Another word that people use for "caught up" is rapture or translated. Now these terms must adhere to scripture and not interpreted in the way the meaning is in the dictionary.

Saint Paul testifies that all men are destined to die once and then to be brought before The Lord for judgement.

Death onto eternal life with Christ is the central theme presented by Jesus and his disciples. Jesus would say many times, be faithful onto death. Saint Paul would say that day has now arrived for me for I have finished the race and kept the faith. All eyes will see him, because all are defined to die once and then to come before their maker for judgement, in the separation of the the sheep and the TARES. Christ rose up on high as the almighty judge.

Because we as witnesses are tied to the blood covenant, we cannot pass from earthly life onto heavenly life without the earthly body dying first. The earthly body must be dissolved, in another words die, before we can put on the heavenly body. The heavenly body is not an earthly body.

2 Corinthians 5:1

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Now we come to those living who will be caught up. What does this mean in context?

Obviously death is bitter and painful, yet these end day saints before the destruction of the world, meaning everyone dies, they are literally passed from the earthly state to the heavenly heavenly without them ever feeling or noticing the destruction of their earthly bodies.

How can I explain this to you in today's generation of thinking. Let us take this analogy. Let us say you are in space ship one, and the space ship is about to blow up and destroy you. You are a conscious being having a bio mechanical earthly body as an interface to your soul. At the point space ship one blows up your body starts disintegrating into finite particles, then at that instant before the threshold of pain, your soul is beamed up into space two in another vessel that houses your soul and that now becomes your interface.

Question is, did you pass from death into life in another vessel that now houses your soul?

Yes!

What happened to the earthly bio mechanical body?

It was destroyed along with space ship one.

This is what scripture calls caught up or rapture or translated. Your soul is being teleported from one interface to another interface and this analogy is similar to being translated from the earthly life to the heavenly life to be with Christ.

Technically your earthly body still dies without you experiencing the pain of death. These elect are said to be blessed because they already have gone through tremendous spiritual suffering, where scripture states that if God didn't shorten those days for the sake of the elect, then no flesh will survive. So rather than letting them die due to the inhabitable place that earth will become, they are translated, just before the earth is destroyed forever, never to rise again.

[Salty]

Salty, we cannot cherry pick favorite scriptures and ignore the rest. You must leave all of Daniel 8 IN CONTEXT.

This is the angel's summary:

 

 

One be assured I'm not the one doing that so-called "cherry picking". You declare one thing one moment, and then you reverse it with something else later, like you did with the subject of Antiochus.

[Salty]

 

This is the angel's summary:

 

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

This is speaking of the days of Alexander the Great. HE was the great horn. When He died, the Kingdom was divided up and

 Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater took over Alexander's kingdom. Seleucus got the area of Syria. The empire took the southern part of Turkey east all the way to the border of India. Indeed, he became the first "king of the North."  Ptolemy got most of Israel, but pretty much left them alone. he was the first "king of the South. it was not until Antiochus the 3rd, Antiochus  Epiphanes father, that the Seleucids controlled Palestine. By the time Antiochus Epiphanes became ruler, the empire had shrunk to a tiny portion of what it was under his father's rule. Verse 23 is about Antiochus Epiphanes.  Note that it says in the "latter time of THEIR kindgom....WHO IS "THEIR?"  it is  Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater, or the GRECIAN kingdom. The rest of the chapter is  therefore about Antiochus Epiphanes. It is the context that proves this.

 

CONTEXT then reigns supreme on forming beliefs from scripture. You wrote, "It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state."  On the contrary, I go by scripture, not man's theories.

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world

 

So what? What does what Jesus said have to do with what was HISTORY in His day, when He was speaking of the future? Daniel also spoke of an abomination in chapter 9 (NOT Antiochus' abomination)  and that is what is still future to us today.

 

 

No matter how much you apply historical accounts to those Daniel 8 Scriptures, you will never disassociate those Dan.8:11-14 verses about the end of daily sacrifices and placing the abomination that makes desolate from the other Daniel examples of that event (Dan.9:27; Dan.11:31; Dan.12). That means that 2300 days timing given in association with it applies for the end, because the end of the abomination of desolation idea won't end until the future coming Antichrist fulfills it just prior to Christ's second coming.