The "Day of the Lord: Where in Revelation does it begin?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes. The rapture of the "general assembly and church of firstborn" (Heb. 12:23) will be at the 6th Seal appearance of the Father and the Son in the clouds of heaven.

I like your timing. I believe the rapture will be a moment before the 6th seal. I am still not sure if Jesus will "appear" to the world at this coming For His saints, or if He will only appear to the Church that will meet Him in the clouds. I don't think the Father will appear at all. He is seated on His throne.  "...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,"

[luigi]

Posted 30 minutes ago

iamlamad said: God is certainly able and allowed to have signs in the sun and moon TWICE, one as the sign for the Day of the Lord and anotehr as the sign for his coming to Armageddon; God is certainly allowed to come TWICE MORE, once FOR His saints and again WITH His saints; and God is allowed and well able to speak of TWO "little Horns," one a type of the other. 

luigi responds: There is where 1/3 of the sun and moon are darkened at the conclusion of Chapter 8, which is just prior to the opening of the bottomless pit in Chapter 9 from which the beast shall ascend. It is then at the conclusion of the beast's reign (42 additional months), when the total darkening of sun will occur, and when the moon becomes as blood (Revelation 6:12 & Acts 2:20), which is just before the Lord's wrath on the beast's worshippers commences. 

When the Lord comes with His saints in Jude 1:14 to execute judgment against the ungodly (Jude 1:15), is the same event when the Lord comes to execute judgment against the ungodly, while rewarding His saints at the conclusion of the beast's system (Revelation 11:18). Why don't you post some scriptures to support your perspective of these being different events?

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Acts 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Edited July 12, 2020 by luigi

[LastTrump Ministry]

On 7/6/2020 at 9:05 AM, iamlamad said:

Some people believe the Day of the Lord will begin at the 6th seal where it is written, "the great day of His wrath is come."  Others think this is just an announcement and the real Day will begin with the 7th seal.

I believe the Day MUST start in one of these two places. Please give which of these two points (6th seal or 7th seal) you believe is the true START of the Day of the Lord, and your argument as to why.

(Note, this will not include any arguments that the Day of the Lord will be the last event of the 70th week, or the theory that the Day will come with His coming to Armageddon. I already know these two theories are bogus.)

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet. I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said. I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book. There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

1. Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that?

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 

3. If the 7 feast of the LORD was given as a pattern of His first coming as in the Spring feast to the day and very hour as a the Lamb of GOD to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost and to Jerusalem (Zec 9:9 as a King) riding on a colt. Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 Spring Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement? Or the feast of Tabernacles which all take place in a 21-22 day period. Did GOD just forget about them? No. Then where do they fit into most people’s second coming on a Horse as King, Judge and Executor?  

4. Where is your personal conclusion that a return at Armageddon is bogus? 

5. Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD in a coming in the air rapture and a 10 days of the wrath of GOD followed by a return As King on the DAY OF ATONEMENT? The feast of Tabernacles would start the 1,000 year of Tabernacling on earth with man? I don’t claim my perspective is 100% right but I see few mention or include it into their view of prophecy? 

5. I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.   

6. I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened or his coming or the 7 years. Shortened means if it was extended beyond that man and Satan would destroy the earth and all mankind. When GOD says, 42, 1260, or 7 years he means it. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by LastTrump Ministry
Spelling

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.

God sounds a trumpet in the day that Israel is saved.  As far as I know, that's the last trumpet.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.     Zechariah 9:14-16

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet. I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said. I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book. There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

1. Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that?

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 

3. If the 7 feast of the LORD was given as a pattern of His first coming as in the Spring feast to the day and very hour as a the Lamb of GOD to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost and to Jerusalem (Zec 9:9 as a King) riding on a colt. Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 Spring Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement? Or the feast of Tabernacles which all take place in a 21-22 day period. Did GOD just forget about them? No. Then where do they fit into most people’s second coming on a Horse as King, Judge and Executor?  

4. Where is your personal conclusion that a return at Armageddon is bogus? 

5. Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD in a coming in the air rapture and a 10 days of the wrath of GOD followed by a return As King on the DAY OF ATONEMENT? The feast of Tabernacles would start the 1,000 year of Tabernacling on earth with man? I don’t claim my perspective is 100% right but I see few mention or include it into their view of prophecy? 

5. I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.   

6. I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened or his coming or the 7 years. Shortened means if it was extended beyond that man and Satan would destroy the earth and all mankind. When GOD says, 42, 1260, or 7 years he means it. 

Hey! Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for answering. 

I became a prewrath  believer   What you did was jump from what can be proven by scipture to what cannot be proven. I guess we could say, from the frying pan into the fire. I am currently writing a book: "The Prewrath Rapture Debunked." Prewrath theory must totally rearrange Revelation to fit - which is a guarantee that it will be proven wrong.

Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that? Yes, OF COURSE it does: God's wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. The trumpets and bowls come after that. 

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 
Oh my! You are another that imagines they can rearrange John's God given order. It is very strange: people form a doctrine; then rearrange Revelation to fit! Rosenthal and Van Kampen did a good job of that. Your double nots are tricky. Are you asking: why is the 7th trumpet the rapture? It is not. It cannot be. 

There is a book sealed with seals. It is the BOOK that is more important, not the seals. The seals only prevent the BOOK from being opened. Make no mistake, there is writing INSIDE the book, but it cannot be opened and revealed until all seven seals are opened first. What is INSIDE the book? Probably the entire 70th week of Daniel. At a minimum, the 7 trumpets. No trumpet can possibly be sounded until all 7 seals are opened first, so the BOOK can be opened.  Therefore, when someone says something like: the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal, I know they are lost in a false theory. 

3...Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 Spring Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement?

I personally think the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath, then the 10 days of Awe, then the 7th seal starts the 70th week of Daniel. I think Paul proves this timing. I also think the great crowd seen in heaven is the just raptured church. And they are in heaven before ANY PART of the 70th week. Pretrib "the classical view" starts the 70th week at the first seal. That is big time error: the first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. Jesus got the book and began opening it the moment He ascended into the throne room. (chapter 5)

4. Where is your personal conclusion that a return at Armageddon is bogus?   That IS His return. But it is His return WITH THE CHURCH, which will be caught up at His second coming as shown by Paul to happen just before Wrath. All we have to do is follow John's chronology. Beginning of sorrows (church age starting with the church sent out), then the devil trying to stop the church (seals 2 -4) then the martyrs of the church age. That is the first hint of a long wait. They are told they must wait for the final church age martyr, and THEN judgment will come: the 6th seal starts that judgment. Next, John starts the 70th week with the 7th seal: the book is opened to reveal the 70th week of Daniel. 

5. Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD  First, WHICH return: He is coming two more times. Trying to force all scriptures into one coming is a guarantee that theory will be found wrong. Paul is very clear that His coming FOR the church will be a coming only to the air. John 14 shows us that He will return back to heaven. We have no appointments with His wrath. HIS coming (to the air) will trigger the rapture and the rapture will trigger the Day of His wrath. He returns to heaven to wait out the time of wrath on earth. The 70th week will end at the 7th vial and that is when the Old Testament saints rise, along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded saints. Then has the marriage and supper in heaven will take place, and finally after 7 years plus (perhaps) 10 days (of awe) plus perhaps another 30 days for the marriage and supper. Then He returns as shown in Rev. 19 WITH the armies of heaven - which will include the church. 

the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years?  I think they are all poured out in "one hour."

I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened  Jesus did not put a TITLE of "Great Tribulation" on the last half of the week.  What He said is that there would be "those days" of "great tribulation." When it is time, when the martyrs are being stacked high, God will send the angels with the vials and plagues  - probably in one hour - and the vials will SHORTEN those days of GT: the days will continue to fulfill the 1260 days or 42 months, but the last days will NOT be days of GT: they will days of fear, pain, darkness and wondering what is coming next. 

It seems we disagree on much!

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet. I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said. I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book. There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

This sounds much like my experience too.  I've since come to be of the post-trib persuasion.

[LastTrump Ministry]

My opinion or yours is worthless. What does Jesus say about his return like a roadmap in Matt 24. Which is repeated by Peter, Joel, Paul..etc. what do you not understand about AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS? What do you not UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE LAST TRUMP? what don’t you understand at the FIRST RESURRECTION? Can there be anything after the last? Or anything before the first? Can there be anything before AFTER? You are entitled to your doctrine. It is popular and a deception. Time proves prophecy. Time is running out on your pretribulation  rapture theory. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by LastTrump Ministry
Spelling

[iamlamad]

On 7/13/2020 at 12:23 PM, LastTrump Ministry said:

My opinion or yours is worthless. What does Jesus say about his return like a roadmap in Matt 24. Which is repeated by Peter, Joel, Paul..etc. what do you not understand about AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS? What do you not UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE LAST TRUMP? what don’t you understand at the FIRST RESURRECTION? Can there be anything after the last? Or anything before the first? Can there be anything before AFTER? You are entitled to your doctrine. It is popular and a deception. Time proves prophecy. Time is running out on your pretribulation  rapture theory. 

THE LAST TRUMP?  My friend, any beginning reader could read Matthew 24 and come up with your conclusion. But that does not make it right: there are OTHER scriptures. We don't (or shouldn't) form doctrine from an isolated scripture such as "after the tribulation of those days," or "the last trump." All you are showing the readers is that you have only a very basic understanding. OF COURSE there is something after "the last." Everyone understands the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last of that series, but who ever said it would be the last trumpet ever?

For example, we could ask, "what is the last tweet by President Trump?" Does "last tweet" mean He will not make another? NO WAY! Perhaps it will be last as of NOW. Or perhaps there is one that was the last tweet YESTERDAY.  Therefore, "last trump" must be qualified. It could be the last trump "ever." (it is not.) It could be the last trump "in a series." That is probably Paul's meaning. 

Question: is God going to send out angels to collect every trumpet in existence, then everyone currently being created, then remove the THOUGHT of trumpets from every human, then remove all materials a trumpet could be made of, so that never, every again will there be a trumpet sound - not even for all eternity?  Is that the intent of Paul's "last trump?" Of course it is not. His intent is the last of A SERIES. What series? Most likely it will be the last final trumpet sound at some years's Feast of Trumpets. I have read that the final, long, trumpet sound at the Feast of trumpets has long been called "the last trump."  Then there is something else: of all the Jewish feasts, there is only ONE (1) that they say, "no man knows the day nor the hour. " You see, before the Feast of trumpets in the old days could begin, TWO WITNESSES had to see the tiny sliver of a moon and report back to the High priest. Then, and only then could the feast of trumpets officially begin. What if it was cloudy? The Feast had to be postponed. So NO ONE knew the day until it started.

what about "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS??" Well, Jesus said the sun and moon would be darkened and then the sign of the son of Man would be seen: like lightning flashing across the sky. Then angels would be sent out to gather the "elect." Some imagine this is Paul's rapture. First, lets talk about Paul's rapture. That event will begin with the dead in Christ SUDDENLY flying up out of their graves - at a time when people are saying peace and safety - a time just like today. NOT a time after the 7 vials have been poured out. Then a moment later, those alive and in Christ will fly up into the air. Then from around the planet those in christ will be gathering to jesus in the air.  So WHERE do these people originate from? OF COURSE from the earth: first those UNDER the earth, then those ON the earth. In other words, the gathering at the rapture will be a gathering from EARTH. 

Next, WHEN does Paul tell us His rapture will come? First, at a time when people are saying peace and safety - a day like today.  NOT like any day after the vials have been poured out. Next, Paul tells us HIS gathering will come just before wrath; JUST before wrath. Like Jesus will come (to the air) and will call up the church, that will END the church age, but will START the Day of the Lord.  It will be as if the rapture triggered the DAY. And where does the DAY start in Revelation? At the 6th seal. That would be before the 7th seal. That would be in chapter 6. Where is Jesus coming shown in Revelation - that coming talked about in Matthew 24? That would be in Rev. 19.  The truth then, there will be over 7 years of TIME between Paul's gathering before wrath and Jesus coming after the trib of those days. In other words, Jesus will come first FOR His bride, just before wrath, then come again 7 years later WITH His bride. 

Now, where is the gathering from "after the tribulation of those days?" It gathers from HEAVEN. Therefore it cannot possibly be Paul's gathering. 

Readers, the real deception is the theory of a "prewrath" rapture. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

I am disappointed: I was hoping someone would give a good argument to prove WRATH will begin at the 6th seal - - OR the 7th. I have not seen such an argument. 

[WilliamL]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:24 AM, iamlamad said:

I like your timing. I believe the rapture will be a moment before the 6th seal. I am still not sure if Jesus will "appear" to the world at this coming For His saints, or if He will only appear to the Church that will meet Him in the clouds. I don't think the Father will appear at all. He is seated on His throne.  "...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,"

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Zech. 12:10 ...then they will look unto Me whom they pierced, and they will mourn over Him as one mourns over the only son, and grieve over HIm as one grieves over the firstborn.

Matt. 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as thou said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus will appear to everyone, living and dead, sitting at the right hand of the Father. The eye single of each soul will be opened for a brief look into the heavenlies at this time. Then those who walk in the light will ascend into His light; those who walk in darkness will flee from the light. Those who walked in the sincerity of their blindness will have their blindness to Christ removed. All summed up in my siggy:

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the dead are raised, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins.