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This is not written in the Bible

Your faith is being tested, it's not going to be fun and easy all the time so what you see as a "dry spell" know that it is in PRECISELY those moments that you have to hold on to him. These moments are what makes faith stronger, just as the stress on our muscles make us stronger when he use them, it's uncomfortable yes, but keep on persevering and you will be stronger for it. Keep in mind that the plan is that you will become unpopular and hated by the world, if they murdered the prophets for doing good and preaching truth, don't think that you will be better off in saying what they said, if you preach what the prophets preached then you will become unwanted just like the prophets, just like Christ. Your faith must be tested, so look forward to the hard parts because that is when you're supposed to shine and carry on in faith... don't look for worldly fellowship or care that you're not popular. The prophets were unwanted, as was Christ, being unwanted by this world is a good thing and you should count on it. You might only have one friend, but that makes you all the more blessed for having that one. Take it with grace that God gave them to you, because you weren't far from an alternative where they wouldn't have been present. So consider yourself very very lucky to have them, and receive them with gratitude because they may well have came from the heavenly one above who took pity on you, be happy in that and beware of wanting more than what's given to you from above. Anyways, IMO i think you're just going through some testing times that require endurance, don't look too far into the future and take it one day at a time, as it is said: "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34

I'm afraid you got no choice, Pre tribs doctrine is the manipulation of scripture of the living saints to be raptured amongst the dead in Christ. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection Even grammatically you can not manipulate first the dead in Christ will rise with this statement first resurrection first the dead in christ/first ressurection. They are one and the same phrases Pretrib is a false doctrine of the living saints to be raptured inbetween the dead in Christ.

Yes it's very easy to understand Rev 11 a literal ressurection, with ACTUAL Christ, let that sink it After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. at a trumpet, a literal trumpet. You have nothing, you have no literal resurrection, no Christ and no literal trumpet...you have fantasy... None of what you state here is found in scripture That is different than in Rev. 20: 4-6 where only the Tribulation believers, those who got saved during the Tribulation but were martyred or otherwise died in Christ will be raised. You have no scripture stating there's a difference in some make belief two part first ressurection. You have no starting point for your ressurection to even determine when a difference between one dead Christian against another dead Christian, because you can't even determine any literal ressurection or trumpet as your starting point.

If the Lord had put that extra resurrection in the Bible we wouldn't be having this debate, but since it's the pre-trib crowd that pencils the extra resurrection in just to make their doctrine sound like it has merit. I have to file that under suspect. I say the Bible has it right.

No you don't, Dead is an adjective, has no classification for example....this dead Christian and that dead Christian.... Poor is another adjective there is no difference between this poor white person and that poor black person. You are declassifying beyond what is in scripture of a separation between this dead Christian and that dead Christian.... You are manipulating scriptures to squeeze in the living amongst the dead to rapture inbetween dead christians After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. You are grossly misinformed.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, shiloh357, what you read was, I believe, the frustration that comes from countless instances of abuse that is suffered by those who dare to point out the fallacious nature of pretribulationism. I was once a pretribber who ridiculed those who "were too stupid to see that we are not appointed unto wrath". Only a couple years ago I realized by God's mercy that I was the stupid and deceived one. It was I who had misunderstood a number of texts which left me with an unsupportable and false understanding of eschatology. However, I was not alone in this error. For the last 150 years this teaching has gained steam and grown to almost saturate the evangelical churches of the west. It is a difficult road to walk, when those you are trying to help and deliver from darkness treat you as if you had denied the deity of Christ or His substitutionary atonement. The pan-tribulationists think, "what is the big deal". They say it will all pan out in the end. I don't see it that way. Jesus gave us many warnings concerning this coming great persecution. The result of this period of persecution will be unprecedented apostasy. Jesus said: Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. This is the falling away (apostasia) that Paul said would happen before the day of Christ (Lord) comes. The combination of unparalleled persecution (countless martyrs) and lying signs and wonders will bring about such a great departure from the faith that Jesus says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luk 18:7-8) The churches of the west are filled with those whose faith has never been tested. Many of them will be offended when tribulation comes. Jesus says that is what happens when the Word is received gladly by those whose hearts are like the stony ground. "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Mat 13:20-21) Many you know, even family who profess Christ today, will be tested one day. Will they own Christ in the face of death? Jesus says that if we deny Him, He will deny us. We need to prepare the professing church to be overcomers. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. I pray you take this precious truth, and acknowledge it as the Words of our Lord. All praise, honour and glory be unto the Lamb.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mike, you are absolutely right to recognize that the present affliction that the church is suffering will continue until it is intensified to an unprecedented level in the first portion of the last half of the seventieth week. We know this unprecedented persecution by three different names: Jesus called it "great tribulation"(Matt 24:21), Daniel called it "a time of trouble"(Dan 12:1), and Jeremiah called it "Jacob's trouble"(Jer 30:7). Each are said to be unprecedented in the context where they are found. The focus of great tribulation Those being persecuted in this unprecedented persecution are Israel and the church. Jesus makes this truth clear in Matt 24:9 where He says that those that will be hated and violently persecuted experience such for His names sake. The church is the elect that Jesus refers to three times in Matt 24. There are many references to the persecution of those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ in the eschatological portion of John's Revelation. In Rev 12 it is said that Israel and believers are the focus of the wrath of the dragon (Satan). After the sixth seal is opened and Christ returns for His own, an innumerable multitude of gentile believers are seen, before the throne of God, having come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17). The persecution comes from Satan through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers Daniel revealed to us that the antichrist would make war with the saints and would prevail against them. John saw the same thing and added that they will kill those unwilling to receive the mark or worship the Beast. We see the same thing being spoken of at the end of Rev 12. Those resurrected in the first resurrection are said to have suffered at the hand of the Beast (Rev 20:4-6). The period of unprecedented persecution is cut short to save some of the elect alive Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The unprecedented persecution will not continue for the full 42 months that the Beast continues. At some point after the beast is revealed and the apostacy of "professors" takes place, Christ will appear in the clouds of heaven, in His glory, with the mighty and holy angels, for every eye to see. He will then resurrect the dead in Christ, change the surviving believers, and catch us both up to be with Him in the clouds. He then escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Later that very same day after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven, His wrath begins to be poured out with the first of the trumpet judgements. Persecution of the church and Israel will continue and later become unprecedented, until Jesus comes, at which time we shall have rest, and our persecutors shall be tribulated 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The day of our rescue is the day that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. To the unbelievers, who persecute the saints, it will be business as usual, right up until God's wrath falls suddenly upon them, the very same day as our rapture. When the beast worshipers, having slain most of the believers, began to say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Notice that this is the context of the wrath that we, the church, are not appointed unto. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Notice that verses ten and eleven conclude the subject of Christ's return that Paul began to speak of back in chapter 4 verse 13. 1Thes 5:10 ties it all together. Christ's arrival at His coming is the day of our resurrection/rapture (when our tribulation ends) and the day of His wrath poured out upon the Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (when their tribulation begins). Mike, you are absolutely right, there are two future periods of unprecedented tribulation. The first falls upon the church and Israel (which is not the wrath of God), the second falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (which is the wrath of God). All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ or Lord.

Hello @Jayne, I agree with you that the immediate context of 2 Timothy 1:15 and 4:10-12 gives us much to consider in regard to the question. 'Why did all in Asia forsake Paul?' I have been reading through the book of Acts from the last missionary journey made by Paul onwards, and chapter 19 and 20, are very revealing. In fact Paul did warn the Ephesian elders ('those in Asia') prophetically, what would happen after he left them. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.’ (Act 20:28-32) * I may come back to this. (God willing) For there is more to say I believe. Thank you. In Christ Jesus Chris

only fools stay with a ship that is sinking. The ship is called the pre-trib rapture. Back when I first was challenged to find real solid proof and foundation I found none. Being a pre trib believer for seven years I felt betrayed by my church. and not just mine but seeing that Christianity as a whole has many corruption and false dogmas and beliefs This would make many turn from their faith. I could not understand how intelligent preachers, teachers could actually stay loyal to their denomination. They lean to a certain denomination and go to their seminaries where they are taught to hold to their doctrines. They are also influenced by their boards. Unless they are completely brain washed they love their paycheck more than the truth. I say this not to discourage any from their personal faith in Christ. We must understand that these things exist within the realm of Christian denominations. I say hold fast to that which is true and blood bought in Christ. It Says in 2nd Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth If one knows the truth then speak the truth in love. Mike M

One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears.

A warning to the wise is sufficient.

The problem with pretrib doctrine is the false equivalency of God's wrath and great tribulation; they are not synonymous. For the doctrine to have validity they must be, but the only place where God's wrath and great tribulation are equivalent is in the pretrib doctrine. If anyone does the leg work required to truly search out the understanding of these things you would see a totally different picture. I understand facts fly in the face of dogma and that is bothersome to the pretrib doctrine. But it's not the facts that are as troubling as the conclusions resulting from those facts. Rev 3:10, 'keep thee' Tragically misinterpreted by the pretrib doctrine based on the preconceived notion there MUST BE a pretrib rapture. If there MUST BE then all facts must prove this, problem is the facts are skewed, kneaded, twisted and bent into the desired shape before being trotted out to bolster the lie of the pretrib doctrine. How does the following become a removal from one place to another? Rev 3:10, 'keep thee' téreó: to watch over, to guard Original Word: τηρέω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: téreó Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o) Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over. HELPS Word-studies 5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), This is a guard during and preservation during, not a removal. 2 Thess 2 'falling away' This is rebellion. Aphistemi is not the word used here. Even if it was it's not a departure from one place to another, it's a departure from an ideology. Again the pretrib doctrine must do logical gymnastics to make the facts fit the preconceived notion of MUST BE. To wit: apostasia: defection, revolt Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: apostasia Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) Short Definition: defection, apostasy Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt. HELPS Word-studies 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." This is rebellion at worst and only slightly less abhorrent, it is a defection. Another tragic misinterpretation. I think worst of all the pretrib doctrine ignores the words of Jesus in Matt 24. In Matt 24 we have a gathering shown to us in great detail. Where is the great gathering of the vast group of a wholly righteous church of stunning purity? Where is that foretold in scripture in any detail? Seriously, this pretrib gathering is a shattering event. 100's of millions gone suddenly, the world stands amazed at the disappearance of friends and family, Law Enforcement inundated and likely brought to a halt, millions of motorized vehicles of all types suddenly driverless; the world would be in shock. And no mention of this anywhere in scripture? Except of course in the delusion of a misguided doctrine, that is. So pretrib doctrine seems to prefer a gathering of a shadowy, implicit nature rather than the overt and explicit gathering as told to us by Jesus and Paul. And what about this: 1 Peter 4:17, "For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:" The house of God is the congregation, the body of Christ, the Church. This is explicit testimony from Peter, who walked with Christ. Who are any of us to ignore this? Maybe there is a 'church age' a 'dispensation of grace' and the church has been established and grown over two millennia, I have my reservations about this, but there is no denying the house of God is the body of believers, the Body of Christ, the Church. Peter helped to established the church in many locales. Peter knew full well the very house of God, that he helped build, was first in line for judgment. "Judgment begins with US." 1 Peter 4:17, "and if [it] first [begin] at us," Oops, I didn't get that quite right. Judgment FIRST with us. So according to Peter, judgment first then a gathering. And according to Paul. And Jesus. And really just about everyone else, unless it's the western church. Then we simply want to endure our current tribulation of jobs and food, cars and sports, Netflix and fast food, until we are taken in a secret gathering that even scripture doesn't record. Back to reality. The beast is coming. For us. Get ready in the spirit of truth. Trust in God. Pray.

So the first half of the week is not the wrath of God? So the church will be here for the first half of the week? That's getting closer to reality. In fact the wrath of God does not occur until sometime later in the last half, perhaps the last 6 months. The beast has his moment in the last half as the persecutor of the church before the wrath of the Lamb.

Yes. it's now my fault the doctrine is false and filled with poor exegesis. If you took the time to understand instead of react you would see I'm pointing out behavior, not motives, I have no insight on the motive of any individual or group. "It is foolhardy to posit that believers have to go through the Tribulation to be "tested." If this is what you actually believe, then you also believe that God is not omnipotent and has no way of knowing who actually belongs to Him, and who doesn't. Believers taken at the Rapture and transformed in the twinkling of an eye are not "elite" and that is not what pre-tribulation believers believe. People who are saved go, people who are not do not. It's that simple. I real-world terms, there is no such thing as an "elite" believer, although this actually is what mis-led people like the Sabbath Keepers and the Holiness crowd believe. We don't "think" that the Tribulation is God's wrath, we know it is because that is exactly what the Bible states." Lets examine the above quote and see if you can answer the question I have asked numerous times which is usually met by silence. The tribulation is God's wrath by your own words. 'Believers are not appointed to wrath' is the foundation of the pretrib doctrine. Two facts lead to this conclusion: No believers will go through the tribulation. "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation," So how is it that some believers go through the wrath of God and others do not? Pretrib advocates know this passage yet it's ignored. This smacks of an elite group ascribed particular characteristics other groups do not possess. "Pre-trib believers do not believe that some kind of lower-rung believers have to be tested during the Tribulation. That is a direct lie." No it isn't. Pretrib knows Rev 7:13-14. You and I both understand that. You believe that some must go through tribulation as it is written, "These are they which came out of great tribulation" "There are believers, i.e. people saved after the Rapture" I don't know why you don't see it. There cannot be believers AFTER the rapture as they would endure the wrath of God because, as you said, tribulation is equivalent to wrath, and all the believers got out before that, yet a great multitude that no man could number endure the very wrath which you are saved from. What do you call that? "You have no other options since God also plainly tells us that anyone saved is not subject to God's wrath." And the contradiction rears it's head again. Anyone saved is not subject to God's wrath? Then there cannot be any saved coming out of great tribulation as tribulation is equivalent to the wrath of God in your mind. Since God is not wrong on this, who is? "If you are going to spread dirt around about those who believe in a pre-trib Rapture" It's not dirt brother, it's the natural conclusion of a false doctrine and the empirical evidence of behaviors of the advocates. And I don't have anything 'right' I read and repeat. I learn, I don't create.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, If you live long enough, and you indeed are Christ's, than you are one of those tribulation saints. When you witness the confirming of the covenant, the Temple rebuilt, and the daily sacrifice and oblation being resumed you will know that you missed the pre-trib rapture (because there wasn't one). If you live a few more years after that, you will have the privileged of joining the martyred saints of history to identify with our wonderful Saviour by not loving your life even unto death. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, It is interesting how many have adopted the spirit of this age and claim that they are victims, only to use that status as a safe platform from which they bully others with whom they disagree. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Wisdom from Above Dr. Charles Stanley June 5, 2018 Tempting The lips of an adulteress drip honey and smoother than oil is her speech Proverbs 5:3 Some people say that they don't accept Christ as their Savior because they don't want to live by a bunch of rules. They want to be free to do what they wish, whenever they like, with whomever they please, and they don't like the idea that there is a God in heaven who would prevent them from experiencing the pleasure they desire. As a believer, one may hear this and wonder, Is there something I'm missing? It seems that the whole world is enjoying things that God forbids in His Word. Friend, be careful! The enemy may be trying to get you to believe that the Lord is an unappeasable taskmaster who is keeping you from experiencing pleasure. Satan will do whatever he can to convince you to stray from the sanctified life God has called you to by telling you that you aren't going to hurt anyone. The desires of your body are natural-just meaningless fun-and the Lord is being unreasonable. However, the truth is that the Father gives you His commands to help you avoid ruining your life with something that will never really satisfy the deep needs you're trying to fill. Because whether you know it or not, those sins influence who you become in a negative way, hindering you from being the courageous, powerful witness God created you to be. Don't do that to yourself! Open your heart to the Lord and be willing to put aside what the world has taught you (Amos 5:4). Tell God that you believe His commands are for your good, and ask Him to teach you to live a godly life that honors Him. There's freedom for you if you'll trust Him, so in prayer commit yourself to Him. Lord, sin is certainly tempting. But I know Your commands protect me from destruction and are always from my good. Teach me to walk worthy of Your name. Amen

Pretrib is now the doctrine of salvation

If one accepts pretrib you're a true believer is what your saying Correct .... all true believers accept the Lord's admonition Sorry my blessed hope doesn't lie in a doctrine called pretrib

It was rather eye-opening for me to hear a pretribber say that "tribulation saints" are believers who have the Holy Spirit indwelling just like you and me and then say that they are not a part of the body of Christ which is a clear contradiction of what the Bible teaches (one Spirit, one body). It's quite a serious error to promote fantasy as truth. I hadn't realized just how far darkness had encroached until I heard that. Still shaking my head over that one. Remain vigilant people and don't succumb to the "don't worry, you won't be here for that" false hope. Separate from Babylon and set your affections above.

If one accepts pretrib you're a true believer is what your saying. I'm really starting to see how cultish pretrib has turned put to be.

Yes, we do. We care.

Thank you so much HikerMom and everyone. I really didn’t know if it was me or not. Now I know it’s not my fault. Thank you!

Hi JTC, sorry to hear that you have no longer much family around you. You are not alone in that position. Many , many people live alone with no families and even older people with families, mention that their children don't help much or come visit them much, so I think loneliness can also be found with people who still have family . I make regular visits and calls to a few senior women who either have never married or are now widowed. Some have children, and even those with children, who DO come and visit, don't seem to find that it fills their loneliness. Which brings me to see that loneliness is more from within than without. I too have literally no genetic family left any longer. Most of my family now is deceased, for the exception of my atheist brother, who wants nothing to do with Christians, let alone his only sister.lol,(but you never know, with God all things are possible)... So I basically I steer clear away from him (praying for him from afar) or he will abuse me, And so I have also no family anymore. But I look my God as my family, my dear heavenly Father who is there with me, for me wherever i go, and the few friends i do have, I cherish and welcome whenever we have the opportunity to meet (which is not often) or the times we get to speak on the phone or through internet. What helps me not feel so lonely is that I make my own life plans and don't depend on people to make my happiness. I try and do what i love. And i go look and search for places that have what interests me or what i may need at a certain particular time in my life. For me one thing i love are animals. Having a pet sure can help make one not feel lonely as they are living beings and also something to keep you busy with as you care for them everyday. I think if I had no pets, I would probably would feel much more boniness, as they -animals can keep you busy as you have an obligation to love and care for them and they give you back so much love. There are animals shelters that I am sure always could use an extra hand of helping care for their animals? And if its people that one is lonely for, there are many volunteer groups that one can get involved in, such as a helping in food banks, food shelters, hospitals, hospices, feeding people, holding babies... I did for most of my life, the volunteering to help people, I still do so now when the opportunity comes, but it is less frequent, and for now as live far away from the city, my obligations are more where I live, taking care of my own self, my home, my gardening, my animals . (In everything there is a season) I don't miss having to go out everyday and meet with people. I kind of enjoy doing my own thing, but I have to make my plans or nothing gets done. The same to meet people, I have to go out of my way if I want to meet with people.People don't just come to you, usually if you want to be with people, you have to make the effort to seek them out. And if people come to you, you got to use discernment from God, for the reason such a person comes to you. So I think loneliness can come out of not being motivated to do much and not having anybody to motivate us to have hope to keep going in life. But really it is God that should bring this motivation from within. Counting on a good Samaritan to do so, may or may not happen. I rather depend on God than on placing to much of my faith my faith in people. People are imperfect, and at one time or another, youwill er or they will er or both and you will get disappointed, especially if you placed all your faith in them. God teaches us to place all trust in Him, and if we can show others also the way through Him and not ourselves. God will always help you and me and anyone who truly seek Him find a way, a way to peace, a way to fulfillment, a way to hope. One thing I have learned, is to be very careful to not get to personal with too many people individually on the internet, especially on the internet as misunderstandings can quickly occur and there is not much of a chance to meet up personally with a person to explain things more clearly. And even if you get to explain yourself clearly and in person, that person my not find affinity or understanding with you. That's just human nature. Also I find, that even here on worthy, you will find people who have made clicks and when you try to post in a thread that has a regular click going on, you are not always made to feel welcome to participate in the post, sometimes you are just being ignored and made to feel unwelcome that way. That is the problem with having clicks even on a christian site. It brings only a select few together and separates other people from joining in rather than bring all people together. You idea of a " Seniors Without Families" thread in the worthy forums, sounds nice at first glance, but is it really necessary? perhaps you can give it a try and see how things develop? What are the topics that you would discuss in a 'seniors without families' that you cannot discuss through other threads? Maybe it can work, just like Abby Joy made a thread for people who have experienced abuse and would like to talk about it and get christian feed back in supportive way. Here today on Haven today was the topic of loneliness and having the key of hospitality towards others, and how that can make a difference. http://www.haventoday.ca/series/love-your-neighbor/

I do not know, perhaps they are. I do not look unfriendly, but I understand. Anyway, I do not have any bitterness towards it... I have been learning with the Lord and I do not feel alone anymore. Seeking others well being is very good... And it makes us feel well too. But we have to understand others as well, forgiving one another, loving one another. God bless you in Jesus' name! ?

Very true. In my mind the sand under the house is our own personal understanding leading to malpractice. The rock upon which the house is built is trust in the Lord's words and fruitful practice. Proverbs 3:5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Matt 7 24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Ever consider that other people are just as scared to talk to you? Some people just hide it better. In one of Paul's epistles he asks the question of How should we treat each each other? He says we should seek to build people up rather than than belittle them. Of course you often get hurt doing this but you have to remember you're obeying Jesus when we do this. It's hard but I started practicing this 20 yrs ago and I like I knowing I'm obeying the Lord. Granted most people don't do this but I take consolation that I'm doing what God wants. Every now and then you even make a friend. Unfortunately I discovered making new friends gets harder with age. I noticed this after 54 but after 60 it became very hard. I guess everyone assumes we all have family as friends. But many times we don't. Most of my family has died and most of my youthful friends went their own way. Some moved, and I mean very far, like from NY to CA or Georgia, perhaps the Midwest, too far to drive there and besides I can no longer afford a car. So I had an idea and this is a good time to mention it. The Worthy Board has clubs doesn't it? My original idea was "Seniors Without Families". I'd start a blog page if I knew how. But maybe a club for people who just don't have friends. Is anyone interested in this? There would be no criticisms allowed. Not unless it's constructive criticism. I'm volunteering to oversee it. As I keep thinking of this I guess you don't have to be senior, but you shouldn't have much family. The reason being if you do have a lot of family the questions will arise as to why you don't get get along with your family. I'd rather avoid that. But there can be good reasons. I have 1 married female cousin but she's married to a self styled new age guru. He calls himself a doc but he his doctorate is from a fly by night Internet website. He also claims he's a priest - of sorts. Since I'm a Christian I can't get along with him very well. We also have 2 next generation cousins but my 1st cousin wants to convert him to their false religion. This is ok as far as joining the club goes. For all intents and purposes I have no family. I also have several cousins who consider themselves "Saved". But tell me, when did Jesus declare holding a grudge is no longer a sin. (sarcasm) How can you have a 1st cousin and hold a grudge for 17 yrs? I don't even know what they are angry about. I don't consider such people family. We can discuss these things in the club. Maybe I should have started a separate thread? But for now, is there any interest in this?

(Worthy News) - Turkey has threatened to attack Iraq's Qandil region, where outlawed Kurdish rebels maintain their headquarters. Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdag told reporters Monday that militants of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, frequently carry out attacks against Turkey from bases in the Qandil mountains and elsewhere in Iraq. Bozdag said "everyone knows that Qandil is a center for terror. Turkey could enter Qandil, everything is possible at any time." [ Source: Fox News (Read More...) ] The post Turkey says it may attack Kurdish rebel stronghold in Iraq appeared first on Worthy Christian News. View the full article

Is there a scripture that supports that? I can list where he convicts of sin, reveals truth, comforts, helps, but where does it say that he holds back evil from manifesting?

We can control the PASSION and INTENSITY with which we live our lives. To get the fruitful life that God has purposed for us, we must go out on a limb away from the ordinary and complacent. Behold, it's time to stop hiding behind walls of fear (What if such and such happens?); it's time to stop hiding behind walls of doubt (It'll never happen); it's time to stop hiding behind walls of disappointment (It didn't happen). Winter has passed. Rise up and come away! Affirmations: I AM NOT AFRAID TO STEP OUT AND TAKE THE SPIRIT OF FAITH WHERE NO ONE ELSE HAS GONE. WHEN I CONSECRATE MYSELF TO FULFILL THE CALL OF GOD, I BECOME THE PLACE WHERE HEAVEN'S BLESSING MEETS EARTH'S GREATEST NEED. I BECOME A VESSEL OF POWER, WALKING FORTH TO DO THE WILL OF GOD. Romans 1:17 - "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith.'" Do you want to walk in the supernatural?" Then talk about God. In the Book of Colossians, it says if you'll talk about God, if you'll keep your mind fixed on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God, then you'll become heavenly minded (see Colossians 3:1-2). Then gates, doors, and portals of Heaven will open, and you'll walk through them. "And these signs shall follow those who BELIEVE: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover!" - Mark 15:18 It isn't our disciplined lives that give us access to the promises of God and allow us to manifest the Kingdom; it is BELIEVING. It is refusing to be deceived by the enemy in believing that we aren't good enough in our present state and that we must keep striving in order to one day manifest the power of Jesus. God, in fact, does use us to manifest His glory even as we grow. We do not have to wait until we obtain some specific level of "spirituality" before we see God move powerfully in our lives. We need to simply BELIEVE that He desires to use us and that He will. Instead of religious debate, which destroys faith and results in an independent spirit, we are to become dependent totally upon the Lord as a yielded vessel washed in the truth of His Word. Titus 3:9 - "Don't get involved in arguing over unanswerable questions and controversial theological ideas.." Matthew 16:13,17,18 - "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 'Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not overpower it."' Affirmations: I MUST DIG MY OWN WELL. I MUST GO DEEPER. I MUST HAVE MY OWN REVELATION FROM THE FATHER OF WHO JESUS IS. "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority (initiative); but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." - John 14:10 There is a better fast to go on than a fast from food! We can learn to fast from our own thoughts and opinions. Many times we don't hear God because our minds are too full of our own thoughts. Jesus is our example. He lived a perpetual fast from His own thoughts and opinions. He emphasized this truth continually. AFFIRMATIONS: I think outside myself and inside the Word -- and let Jesus bless the world through me. As I rest in His victory I rule in the midst of my enemies. Since Christ is in me I am upheld by the Spirit of God. What life decisions, regarding your future, have been influenced today by the call of God on your life? God designed you to be a powerful part of His plan, but so much depends upon your willingness to allow Him to unleash His PURPOSE inside you. Every believer in Christ Jesus can live in the perpetual continuous flow of the Holy Spirit daily in their life, for we've all been given the blessing and authority to tap into the root of continuous oil. That root is Jesus! (Romans 11:16,17) "You, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them become a partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree." - Romans 11:17 Can you believe for the tear He weeps for you? Are you in a process that has not yet produced answers to your problems or your promises? Jesus says, "believe, and you will see the glory of God." - John 11:40 How much time do you spend meditating on and confessing God's Word compared to taking in other perspectives from television, movies, books, magazines, and the Internet? God wants to resurrect things that have died in you. You may think that your window of occasion is past the time that anything good can happen, but remember we serve the God of the resurrection. "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life....." - John 11:25 ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY http://afministry.ning.com

Is 1 corintians 15 not the rapture? 51 says that All shall be changed. It does not leave anyone out. 1 corintiahns 15:51-52 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In addition to that question I would ask, if the church is gone, is the Holy Spirit still here? If not, how do all those people get saved during the tribulation?

That is the problem. Are the tribulation saints raptured or are they not? Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hi Shiloh, Acts 2 definitely shows the apostles and other believers receiving the Holy Spirit with the beginnings of the new covenant promise but where does it say this assembly or church is seperate from other assemblies like people who die in the tribulation and where does it say that the Rapture happens when this church is taken away?

Scripture says; Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, By God saying; “that God calls as a witness both heaven and earth against you to testify that He has put the choice of either life and death before man.” God is saying in the strongest terms possible that the matter of the free will of man has been settled once and for all. Even to the extent of calling all things both in Heaven and on earth to testify to the fact that it is unquestionably true. In other words the God of love has called everything and everybody as a witness. That God has given man free will to choose either life or death. Than the God of love instructs, which one to choose. For His great love for mankind, will do all within the bonds of righteousness to secure man’s choice. But man has to be the chooser. For He was made in the image and likeness of God. Meaning that which is free in God is free in man. Which is the ability to choose. There is one other time in scripture where God uses such strong language concerning His actions. It is when He says “He swears by Himself”. He swears by Himself because there are no witnesses to His actions, because they have not happened yet. It was a promise of a future event. Here He calls all witnesses everywhere to testify about a passed event. As scripture says; something that, “all”, in Heaven and earth can testify to. Much love in Christ, Not me

No it is not normal. It is the silent treatment. It is mean and manipulative. I think you should get some support on setting healthy boundaries with them. You could visit with a counselor. Henry Cloud has some awesome books on boundaries. They are trying to punish or manipulate you. As someone who has had to cut one parent completely out of my life--nine years ago--I can say that I have a perfect father in heaven even though my earthly father was abusive in many ways. What is happening to you is emotional abuse plain and simple. I was able to forgive, but reconciliation for me was a completely different matter. I didn't want to always be recovering from abuse. So I chose to cut off all contact and am so much happier to this day. I'm not saying that is what you need to do. But I am saying I would think counseling would help you to see when and how you are being manipulated and help you to have support as you learn to create healthy boundaries for yourself. Just the fact that you are asking if it is normal makes me think your parents have been violating your boundaries for a long time and you would probably benefit from talking with a Christian counselor. It might be a blessing from God that you have not married yet. You might have trouble recognizing who is healthy and who is not. That is another good reason for counseling. Sometimes when we have been mistreated then our attractions can be broken. I am so sorry this has happened to you. It has nothing to do with YOU and everything to do with THEM. As BK110 said, pray for them. And I hope you can take comfort in knowing that you have a father in heaven who loves you so much... "Even if my father and mother abandon me, the LORD will hold me close." Psalm 27:10 your sister in Christ, jen

So according to the pre-tribbers during the tribulation when someone reads the Bible and it says Christians are not appointed to wrath, they are supposed to say this is a lie?

If a question is being asked for which one wants to find an answer, I suggest doing some Bible reading which includes a topical study of crown(s), garland(s) and running of the race(s). As a beginning there are: "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." "Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have love" "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." -And then ponder the paths of your feet-

Hey, Have read Dan 11:36 lately? That will tell all ya need to know about Daniel11:36. Peace.

There is nothing here untrue and I stand by it. I have witnessed all the above whether you like it or not. What's so wrong about the truth? Pretrib engages in unreasonable conclusions based on preconceived notions, the very definition of prejudice. I have experienced the intolerance of these same advocates, of which you and Shiloh and Cobalt are proof, as it's likely I hurt your feelings. In order to defend you all attacked. That's fine. The intolerance I have seen here is also the definition of bigotry, "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself", You three have shown nothing but intolerance and thereby prove the point. And all three pretrib, yes? I fully understand the ramifications of the pretrib doctrine. It's you who do not. Lets try basic logic. Pretrib says tribulation is equivalent to wrath. No believer is appointed to wrath. Therefore no believer will see tribulation. This is refuted by, rev 7:13-14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This cannot be according to pretrib. But you carry a preconceived notion that pushes this aside even in the face of rational experience. Prejudice. So then we have, according to pretrib, a holy group taken out before tribulation, and a less than holy group that must stay behind and endure tribulation, even though pretrib says the opposite. That's hypocrisy. Do you see? If no believer is appointed to wrath, which is tribulation in the eyes of pretrib, how is it that a vast multitude no man could number comes from the very thing you say they are not so appointed? It's hard. I know. You'll see.

Please. If you presented yourself as sincere then I would happily do as you ask. I don't think you are sincere. And just look at you go calling my motives into question. Isn't that what you accused me of. Mudslinging? Misrepresentation? Ha!

You know them as well as I do. What would be the point? So we can go back and forth about how each other lacks understanding? No thanks.

What precludes these two prophetic futures from running concurrently?

It does appear demas was in utter grave danger at that time. Even JOHN says He who loves the world , HAS not the love of the FATHER . Its time to get them doctrines back on Christ , back on HIS wholesome words of godliness, back on the pattern the apostels set and taught them churches. Its high serious that we learn as small children that original pattern . Get it so engrained by daily reading , that if a radiologist did a xray on you , He would fall back and say OH MY I think I see JOHN three sixteen etched on that heart . Figure of speech , but man we better dig in and read that holy book for ourselves . You loved sister . You are . Let us praise the ONE who has saved us and can keep us from falling , obey HIM , Follow the SPIRIT and we will never fall . ONWARD into the trenches sister , the battle will only intensify the closer we get to the end .

I think what you have proven is God's wrath is the ultimate destiny of acceptance of the mark and the worship of the beast. The mark is not wrath, it's the revealing of the heart and mind of the individual accepting the mark, leading to the ultimate destiny of wrath for each person who so chooses. It's a logical fallacy to make assertions and then challenge the audience to disprove the assertion. The burden of proof is on the one making the case. In this instance you have not proven the false prophet is the beast but instead charge others to disprove the claim. I think it's topsy turvy, but I accept. Rev 13 " 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast." Rev 13 clearly states the second beast was given power and exercises that power on behalf of the first beast. The first beast and the dragon are top dogs here as the world worships the first beast and the dragon, and the false prophet influences the world to worship the first beast. The false prophet is therefore subordinate to the first beast and the dragon, and is not the beast, nor the man of sin. Since the second beast is given power and is subordinate to the first beast, where did that power originate? All we have here is the dragon as the bestower of power. The dragon gave power and authority to the first beast so it is a natural conclusion the second beast received power through the same channel; seeing the second beast is directing the world to worship the first beast, and is performing signs on behalf of the first beast. Another clue in my mind is how the second beast spoke, like a dragon. The false prophet speaks aligned with a dragon, if not the dragon. It's not a stretch to think when it is said the second beast speaks like a dragon, it speaks like the same dragon from Rev 13. We are going to see three major players in the end: the dragon, the first beast and the false prophet, all acting in concert subjugating the inhabitants of the earth. I requested chapter and verse proving the mark of the beast is the wrath of God. Some verse that speaks to such an equivalence. You have shown only the destiny of mark acceptance. An example of proof might look like; Rev 15:1, "I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed" Here we know for sure the last 7 plagues are equivalent to God's wrath. It's stated plainly. Got anything like this for your assertion the mark exhibits identical equivalence to wrath in the same sort of plain speech as in Rev 15:1?

I also was a pre-tib believer. The letters of paul were written in the time of the apostles. The apostles suffered greatly along with the churches under the Emperors. It would have been difficult to tell them that they would not have to suffer at the hands of their oppressors. Now we come into the modern day free world church who are not suffering at all and told tales of great woe so by using fear the church will escape before it all comes down after the antichrist confirms seven years of peace with Israel. Why would all the fire works begin just after they made peace. Both Jesus and Daniel concur it starts after the abomination of desolation 3 1/2 yrs after the peace agreement. Read Daniel 7: 25 where its says the church is handed over to the antichrist for this period. Now read Rev 15 the overcoming church ( the bride ) is in heaven just before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbeliever world. So what is the stuff the pre- trib people are trying to sell us on. Money is at the bottom line, selling pews to fill their churches, write books and sell films. Persecution and Gods wrath are two separate events. The saints are not appointed Gods wrath. Those who overcome we see standing before God having the harps of God Rev 15.

For some, it is a question of loyalties. When I have tried to show my friends that the neither the imminent return nor the pre-tribulation rapture has any Bible proof, their standard reply is either, "Believe me, you are wrong", or "Do you mean to tell me that (Pick your famous preacher) is wrong and you are right"? I know their position better than they do. I have read a long list of Dispensationalists on this specific topic. In point of fact, I used to believe all of that until the scriptures convinced me otherwise. For others, it is the fact that we are not able to state our view, or actually question their view without being vilified and shunned. I have seen missionaries' support dropped, preachers banned, and others condescended to. The only defense they have is tired old quips like, "Do you honestly believe that God would beat up his bride?" or "No rapture? Hey, that's no 'blessed hope'!" or "Read your Bible, son". BUT, because I wanted to be very sure of my position and my first loyalty is the Scriptures, until they can refute scripture with scripture, I will remained unmoved.

I don't think 1 Cor 15:52 says anything about God blowing a trumpet. It is a trump OF God. Anything else is assumption. It could mean 'permission', 'a rental', 'particular purpose', 'specific time', and each use is allowed by God, even as he does not sound the trump personally. So out of all those possibilities, why choose the one you did?

No matter how hard I study, I still cannot come up with the errors I read here. I will even study some more I guess - maybe squeeze the scriptures until recognizable to those that like to tell others they are not Christians for not understanding an unprovable and distorted view. If your views go against the actual scriptures, and if you must demean others for not holding to your opinions, then perhaps your methods are better suited to the inquisitions of past ages. Dangerous.