Search the Community

Revelation 22:1 - "And He showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." This supernatural river with healing properties flows from the throne and needs to be released on the earth. We as believers are the gateway through which this healing river is released. We already have access to everything we need to bring healing to the nations. Affirmations: God leads me to the river of His Spirit, the current of clear goodness that flows without ceasing. As I step into that unfailing new life, I will want nothing else. A river starts small and grows until it reaches its destination. I am called to a journey that grows continually in both life and power. Proverbs 4:18 - "But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, that shines brighter and brighter until the full day." John 15:9 - "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you; continue ye in my love." Affirmation: THROUGH MY WORDS AND MY ACTIONS, LOVE IS THE MARK OF GOD'S HAND ON MY LIFE. IT SHOWS WITH WHOM I KEEP COMPANY. Luke 10:41,42 - "But the Lord answered and said to her, 'Martha,Martha, you are so worried and bothered about so many things; but only a few things are necessary, really only one, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."' Affirmation: I TAKE TIME TO HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS INSTEAD OF GETTING CAUGHT UP IN WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE NEED OF THE MOMENT. ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

John 15:7 - "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." OBSERVATION: The degree to which I will abide in Him will be determined by the degree to which I behold the power of His resurrection -- the power,glory, and authority that He has NOW. Philippians 3:10,11 - "That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." Since the completion of the Cross of Calvary and the "Resurrection Authority with Christ" ultimately triumphing over the enemy and seated at the right hand of God, we now have abundant life forever. We are not given resurrection authority to simply miss Hell and go to Heaven. We have this power dwelling in us to appropriate raising the meaningless, dead existence of the lost into the everlasting vibrant eternal life now on earth as it is in Heaven. Galatians 6:7,9 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." I know that the only thing I'm going to take to heaven is what I give away. Romans 10:17 - "So the faith cometh by hearing and hearing, by the Word of God." The human spirit can be compared to film in a polaroid camera. I expose it with my voice by speaking God's word -- then I don't give up before the manifestation comes. Ephesians 4:29 - "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Matthew 24:12 - "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Satan wanats you to become the termperature of the culture that surrounds you, a believer bound by a stone cold heart. By exposure to hardness and darkness in the times that we live in, our love and passion wil begin to cool by degrees. When you see churches and individuals who do not have the energy to reach-out, it's an indication that their love has grown cold. In Numbers 16:37, the Lord told moses to "scatter the burning coals abroad."This is precisely what the great commission is al about -- spreading the Word with a fiery heart. Affirmations: I REFUSE TO STAY IN A NORMAL MODE; I'M NOT GOING TO LET THE WORLDS CULTURAL WISDOM SQUEEZE ME INTO ITS MOLD. THE WORLD'S POLITICALLY CORRECT AGENDA CAN'T DICTATE TO ME ANYMORE. QUESTIONS TO ASK MYSELF: 1. What am I doing to stoke the fire of my love and passion for advancing the Great Commission? 2. What is my passion? ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Revelations put in order and explained: Revelation chapters 6 to Rev. 22 John is in the Spirit in Heaven seeing future events. The judgments of the Lamb are followed by the trumpet judgments then the vials of wrath judgments. These events are judging Babylon the World Government System(s) that puts men before God and enslaves/conquers Gods chosen people Israel. Revelation 12 where Satan is cast down happens in this same time period, the Anti-Christ is possessed by Satan and then the proposed peace this evil tyrant has offered turns into perilous times as never seen before, which Jesus and Daniel foretold would happen. This Anti-Christ will then go forth to conquer, chapter 13 tells of this Beast arising out of the Sea which means and has always meant in biblical terms, that he is a Gentile leader. His partner, the False Prophet arises out of the Land, which has always meant in biblical terms that he is a Jewish individual. The False Prophet no doubt gets Israel to make peace, meaning to accept the Security of this Man of Sin/Anti-Christ. He will then no doubt turn against them at the 42 month mark. This is when he goes forth to conquer as chapter six implies. All of these chapters are different events happening at the same time or pretty close in time, hence I am conjoining them together on purpose. I think the wrath of the Lamb is the Lord Jesus allowing the Anti-Christ to come forth and harm the world via murder, enslavement, dictatorship etc., in the first Four Seals. The Sixth Seal is an action by God/Jesus, but all are the Lambs Wrath he allows them to happen or causes them to come to pass. Then comes the trumpet judgments, Rev. 8 says that an Angel stood before the alter of God with the incense or prayers from the Saints of God, I think this is where the two-witnesses pray down plagues upon mankind. The Angel took the prayers, mingled with fire, and cast them upon the Earth !! Then came the plagues. A third of the trees and all the grasses were burned up, a third of the seas turned to blood, a third of the creatures died, a third of the waters were poisoned, an asteroid hits the earth, the sun, moon and stars are darkened, because of all the smoke no doubt. Then comes the three Woes which end the reign of mankind and begins the reign of God with his seven quick staccato style Vials of Wrath. Babylon has Fallen, has Fallen !! The first Woe is Rev. 9:1, the release of a demon horde led by Apollyon, they are given the power to hurt and maim but not to kill the men who do not have the Seal of God in their forehead. The next Woe is a 200 million army of God led by four Angels, they are given the power to slay a third part of mankind with fire, smoke and brimstone. These wear the exact Breastplates the High Priests wore, and Rev. 9:20 says And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils. These were plagues of God no doubt. During this time, Israel has been in hiding in the Wilderness, protected by God (Rev. 12) since the Anti-Christ turned on them. Christians who became Christians after the rapture are being beheaded for their faith in Jesus Christ. Those beheaded are the Saints under the alter in Seal number five, they are given a white garment and told to wait until their fellow-servants would be slain just as they were, they were asking for vengeance on those people living on earth who beheaded them. Satan could not get at Israel (Woman in Rev. 12) so he went after the remnant of her Seed (Jesus is the Seed) so the remnant that was left was the Christians who became Christians after the rapture. Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant (small part that's left) of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Christians) Chapter 10 is mysterious because John was commanded not to write the things he heard the seven thunders utter. But the Angel swore to John, by God, one thing, that when the seventh angel or trumpet sounded, time would be no more (Rev. 10:6-7) and when he Sounded, the Mystery of God would be finished. I think this means mans time is up after the Seventh Trumpet Sounds, God will then reign (SHOWN BELOW) and bring forth His Vials of Wrath in quick staccato fashion. BOOM, BOOM, BOOM all seven Vials will come forth very fast, there will be no more waiting, no more time intervals like in Rev. 9:5 where the Demon horde was given five months to maim mankind. Rev. 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: Chapter 11 of course is the Two-Witnesses, Daniel chapter 12 also speaks about these two who stand on different sides of the river. The angel there also swears to Daniel, by God, about the time of mans reign ending after 42 months when asked by Daniel how long it would be. But then in Daniel 12 we are told about a 1290 day period and a 1335 day period. Daniel was told that the 1290 day period is how long this age will last after the daily sacrifice is taken away. ( NOT WHAT YOU MAY THINK ) In my opinion this is when Elijah turns Israel back to God. Thirty Days before the Anti-Christ starts going crazy, Elijah, one of the Two-Witnesses is sent to turn Israel back to their Messiah Jesus Christ, ( maybe longer, but they are only turned to God 30 days before the Anti-Christ turns violent/crazy ) thus the daily sacrifice is taken away, they now have Jesus, Israel does not need a daily Sacrifice. (Zechariah 13:1, a fountain is opened unto Israel for Sins and Uncleanness) So Elijah is given 1260 Days to Witness, but he starts this before the Anti-Christs 42 month reign of terror begins, so when he is killed and raised up to heaven, this in my opinion is when the Seventh Trumpet sounds, and mans reign is over, God declares that He is now in charge, and via His wrath he begins destroying Babylon (the Last Gov System or the Seventh Head of the Beast). The Anti-Christ has 30 days left before he is locked in the bottomless pit. Malachi 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ( Before the Day of the Lord or Judgment Day God sends Elijah to turn Israel back to God, and Daniels 70th Week Decree is Fulfilled. ) Now the final Woe !! Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The Vials of Gods Wrath are forthcoming, God has taken control, there will be no more time intervals, boom, boom, boom, Gods judgment against Babylon will be fast and sure (she is destroyed in one-hour). Babylon is now inhabited by devils, the horde that was released in Trumpet number five and Satan himself was cast down. And the nations were angry that the time of Gods wrath had come. Chapter 14 tells us of Jesus landing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 and an Angel announcing Babylon has Fallen, has Fallen. Chapters 17 and 18 is only a more in depth explanation of the Two Entities of Babylon that falls, the Harlot is the False Religion side that is destroyed by the Kings in league with the Anti-Christ who want the Anti-Christ to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, so all False Religion is destroyed (Islam and others), Christians are also beheaded and Jews are chased into the wilderness, the Jews are now mostly Christians in reality. But God uses the Anti-Christ and his Kings to Judge the Harlot. (Revelation 17), they destroy and burn her. (False Religion is Judged, Islam is destroyed) Now in Rev. 18, the judgment of Babylon by God is Gods plagues against the Last Gov. System or World Order, (Seventh Head of the Beast) the Seals and Trumpets are the Lambs Wrath and the Saints/Two Witnesses prayers that prays down Plagues. The last seven Vials are of course Gods Wrath being poured out. These final seven plagues are the final Woe !! The Seven Final Plagues or Vials: Notice they happen fast, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, I think this all happens in like a 30 Day Period. The First Vial/Plague is poured out, and grievous sores come upon all who has the Mark of the Beast. The Second Vial is poured out and the Sea turns as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul therein dies. The Third Vial, all the drinking water becomes Blood. The Fourth Vial depletes the ozone and men get scorched by the Sun. The Fifth Vial is poured out upon the Seat of the Beast (Babylon) and it turns Dark, and men curse God for their pain, but still repented not. (They hate God and hate Israel, so they are willing to come against Israel to spite God) The Sixth Vial was poured out and the Euphrates River was dried up, preparing the way of those nations angry with Israel to try and attack them and destroy them forever. (Not a 200 Million Horseman Army, that is Rev. 9 not Rev. 16) The False Prophet, Anti-Christ and Dragon send forth Three Evil Spirits, to entice mankind into war against Israel at Armageddon, but it is Jesus they will be fighting, Rev. 19, is the Saints coming back from the Marriage to the Lamb in Heaven, to fight those evil tyrants and to bring to an end the Evil Babylon Gov. System. ( I will be there, Amen.) The Final Vial is Poured out. And a voice from Heaven says "It is Done" A great earthquake like never before shakes the earth. Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. ( Notices the CITIES of the NATIONS ? Plural, Babylon is all the World that is being judged, all men who took the Mark of the Beast, the last Great Gov. System is being Judged. God remembered Babylon, this is why it is called Babylon, God sees all False Religion and False Governments as Babylon. It reminds him from whence it was Birthed !! ) 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Rev. 17 and 18, as I stated before is only a more detailed account of what is FINISHED here in Rev. 16. (It is Done) Just like Genesis chapters one and two are kind of the same but different, one is the Creation of the universe, the other is the telling of Mans creation in further detail. So the next event is really Rev. 19 and Jesus returning with the/us Saints, even though that is described somewhat by Jesus and the 144,000 landing on Mt. Zion . Jesus returns and destroys the wicked with the sword of his mouth (Holy Spirit) he casts Satan into the bottomless pit for 1000 years and Judges and casts the False Prophet and Anti-Christ into Hell. The rest of Revelation is self explanatory, after a 1000 year reign Satan is loosed, then Jesus/God destroys him and the rest of the rebellion with fire, judges them, and casts them into the Lake of Fire where the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are waiting. Then New Jerusalem comes down, we live in a beautiful new world, for ever and ever with our Lord Jesus Christ. AMEN !! Glory to God.

Hi all. This is the first chapter in an animated video series (of 25 chapters) detailing how prophecy could play out in practical reality. It's a work of fiction, but I believe it does a pretty good job of lining up with prophecy and the spirit of Jesus' teachings from the gospels. In the first episode America is destroyed in a surprise military strike by Russia, which brings about a domino effect for a series of further prophetic events. The story focuses on a family who is forced to take shelter in the basement; they had always believed that they would be raptured before all the trouble started. Now they must come to terms with what's happening around them and find a way forward through the coming years. 21:19

Revelation 12 7 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength , and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Well, since I made a list once about some things the Bible does not say about the End Times, maybe I should list some thing that it does say. Now, I am expecting, that no one will argue that these things are not in the Bible, but I do not reasonably expect that there will not be people, who will want to comment on how these things do not mean what they appear to mean. I expect some comments from the Bible + crowd. The numbers are there to make it easier to reference things said, for any who find quoting difficult to do. So, in no particular order, and some possible redundancy: 1. There will be a time of trouble whcih Jesus called birth pangs √ 2. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation. √ 3. There will be a specific sign to warn of it's nearness. √ 4. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited it length to preserve life. √ 5. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky. √ 6. He then will send angels to gather His elect. √ 7. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return √ 8. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers √ 9. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. √ 10. There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. √ 11. The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise first, then the living Christians join them in the air. √ 12. Believers are to look for a man of lawlessness to be revealed, and by that will know that the 2nd coming of Jesus, has become imminent. √ 13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. √ 14. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection √ Taken from http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html

Peter on the Last Days - Part Two ( part 1 is here ) I do not know how many parts there will bet, but this is the second installment, and deals with a little something we can glean from Act 3. Many will think I go too far - maybe I do. However, this is what I think I see there, related to end times sequences. In Acts Chapter 3, Peter is again addressing a group of people and lets us know something of what has been revealed to him about the last days. Now, the context is not a lecture on eschatology, it is a presentation of the Gospel near the temple in Jerusalem. Peter and John were there and encountered a man, crippled, who was begging. Peter said he did not have any money, but what he did have, he would give to the man. Then he said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Walk!" (Act 3:6) The man was healed and walked with Peter and John, into the temple courts. The man seemed to be a bit excited (and why not) by his ability to walk for the first time in his life. The people round about, recognized the man as the guy who used to sit around begging for money and they were amazed. Peter seized this opportunity, to launch into a presentation of the Gospel, (Acts 3:12-25), part of which I will reproduce for you here: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or Godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through Him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that He may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive Him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from their people.’ The reason I have only given you part of that sermon here, is that I am focusing in this series, on what Peter tells us, about the end times. So, in keeping with that, I want to point out verse 21 to you: “Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. “ Now, to restate that into plainer language, we could paraphase that sentence in this way: He (Jesus) must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, just as He (God) has promised long ago through the prophets (in the scriptures) Now certainly, Peter is not here, giving us a discourse on eschatology, but he has revealed a little detail, that could clear up a misconception that some might have about the future actions of Jesus, things Jesus will be doing in our future. Peter has let us know here, that Jesus must remain in Heaven until certain things have happened, things which have been revealed, prophesied to happen, which are in our Old Testament. I am not certain what things Peter had in mind (possibly Isa 2:1-4, Isa 35, and Zech 14:1&14:8-11) when he said "the time to restore everything", but I think we can reasonably conclude certain things about this concept. For example: · The fact that Jesus must remain in Heaven until . . . the until lets us know that there will be a time where Jesus is no longer going to be restricted to Heaven, and He may return. · Clearly, this had not yet happened at the time Peter gave this sermon, and would be yet future · We know that Jesus has not returned as of this study, so it is still a future event · We know (from Matt 24 and other passages, that there is coming a time of great tribulation, and since the tribulation is the world at it's worst, that the tribulation does not qualify as a 'restoration of all things' · Since Jesus will not return until the time of restoration, and since we also know that Jesus WILL return, immediately after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29-31), it is a reasonable assumption, is that Jesus will not return before or during the tribulation · Since Jesus can not return UNTIL it is time to restore all things, and He will return after the tribulation, therefore, His return after the tribulation has to be the time to restore all things, there is no alternative that harmonizes with what we know from these verses which we have just examined. Psalm 110 says: 1The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” 2The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!” 3Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb. Now, in this context of Jesus not returning until some event, notice that Jesus (apparently) is told by God the Father (in Heaven) to remain (there in Heaven, at God's right hand). The Bible is nothing, if not consistent. It is always agreeing with itself. If you have an understanding of a text, which does not harmonize with other Bible texts, then you have a wrong understanding, assuming that the Bible is accurate. While the ideas that I am pulling from these texts, may not be a correct understanding, they are not incompatible with each other, or other points of scripture, so they may well be correct. If my understanding is correct on these texts we are examining, then it appears again, that if Peter had the notion that Jesus would return (and he did), then Peter seems to understand that His return, will be after the great tribulation. Not only does he imply that Jesus will return after the tribulation, he states that Jesus will not return before it, making a pre-trib rapture impossible.

The End Times - According to Peter - Part One ( part 2 is here ) While I generally do not think of the post-trib rapture position as an interpretation of scripture (I think of it as a collection of events described in scripture and merely stated as an online), there are those who would and do say that it is one of many interpretations. Certainly it is one of many understandings, I just happen to believe it is likely to be a nearly correct, or mostly correct understanding among many misunderstandings. What follows, however, is an interpretation. Here, I am examining words of Peter, and drawing from them, what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, but that is all they are. Matthew 24-25 is the most thoroughly developed passage in scripture which gives a chronological accounting of end times events. There, the greatest authority we could hope to have speaks of these events in response to the question: "WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of YOUR COMING and of the END of the AGE." My friends who are fond of advancing the pre-tribulation rapture theory, tell me that God's dealings with mankind can be broken down into different dispensations, and that this sermon by Jesus (often referred to as the Olivet Discourse) was directed to a different dispensation (not that of the Church age of Grace), and was intended for the Jews. Some tell me that the Church Age began at Acts chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit came upon the church at Pentecost, a few tell me the church age began with the church going out into the world, preaching the gospel, which is roughly the same thing. This dispensational view of things seems to have been developed by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s, and spread largely due to the Schofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. From there is spread into U.S. seminaries and then into the pulpits until it had become a commonly accepted idea in the churches of the west. I mention this dispensational theory, because if has an influence on how people read and understand the Bible. It is a filter, a set of colored glasses, through which many interpret the Bible, perhaps especially the book of Revelation. To be fair, most of us, whether we know it or not, or can admit it or not, probably view many of these things through some sort of preconception. We bring certain beliefs or prejudices to the text with us. Many read the Bible through Darby's dispensational lenses because that is how they were taught in their churches and books they have read etc. My own prejudice is that I read the Bible through the lens of Matthew 24 primarily, so this influences how I understand the bible also. Peter, never heard of Darby nor dispensationalism, but he was there for the lecture in Matthew 24. Since this is an examination on things Peter had to say on the end times, it seemed appropriate to bring up dispensationalism, since Peter had some things to say that might affect some of dispensationalism's notions. The context of Acts, chapter 1, is that Jesus had already been crucified, and paid for the sins of believers, and personally, I would have to say that makes a better marker for the beginning of the church. However, Acts 1 notes the following: 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” I would agree with our dispensational brethren, that the church began at least by the time the Spirit came to fill believers, if not before. In verses 6-8 we see: 6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the Earth.” So, there Jesus told them that knowing the times and dates, was not really their business. However, Matthew 24-25, was about knowing the equence of events and the signs of His future coming. He warned them not to be deceived, and gave them signs that believers could use to avoid deception. So Jesus had already given them instruction about the order of events to come, even if He did not given the them the actual time in which they would come. Now, in Acts 1:9-11, we see something else stated: 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” Take note that what is said there, is that Jesus would return the same way as He left. Now, if He left by ascending up into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, is it not reasonable to assume, that when he returns that He will be seen descending from the sky, out of the clouds? So, was Matthew 24 etc, intended for the Jews only, and not intended to be understood as concerning the church? Let's look further into some of the things which Peter said on the topic. In as much as Peter's Sermon in Acts, Chapters 1 & 2 was indisputably happening in the age of the church, regardless of whether one buys into the notion of dispensations or not, we can take what Peter says, as relevant to the church. In fact, in Acts 2:46&47, Luke says: 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Notice "those who were being saved", is that not a description of the church? Since Peter's sermon is therefore, applicable to the church, it behooves us to note some of the things Peter tells us. Now, in Acts chapter 2, just after the crowd is drawn to the curiosity of the disciples speaking in tongues, notice what Peter says about the event: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ So, there we just saw that Peter rightly noted that the Old Testament commented on the last days. The old testament points out that in the last days, God would pour out his Spirit on people. Not only that, but Peter says that this event at Pentecost, is a fulfillment of what Joel said. This means, therefore, that Joel was speaking of the so called (among dispensationalists) Church Age. Joel himself, described this as the last days. Notice what is included in what Peter pointed out from the prophet Joel's words in verse 20 of Acts 2: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord." If the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord, then we can be assured that the day of the Lord, is an event that follows the signs of these celestial events. It is interesting to note therefore, what Jesus had said back in Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the distress (or as many translations say "tribulation) of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. We have already seen that Peter sees himself as in the last days spoken of by the prophet Joel and that this period of time would conclude with the day of the Lord. We also noted that the signs that would proceed the day of the Lord, match up with what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation, namely cosmic disturbances seen in the darkening of the Sun and the Moon (Matthew 24:29). Peter quoted Joel as saying: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." It seems apparent then, that it was Peter's expectation, that the church should continue in it's task of evangelism, through the end of the tribulation, when the cosmic signs appear, and the day of the Lord begins. Peter, having been present at the teaching which Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24, would have heard what we see recorded in Matt 24:9-14: 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. This points out the gospel was to be preached right up to the end: "and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So, what we have here in sequence is: Jesus death on the cross His ascension into Heaven the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the spread of the Gospel the tribulation (people being persecuted, killed and hated because of Jesus) the darkening of the Sun and the Moon evangelism continuing right up to this time Christ returning visibly in the clouds (just as we noted in Acts 1:9-11 and in Mat 24:30) His gathering of the elect to be with Him, (in Matt 24:31) the day of the Lord is ushered in It appears then, that Peter understood both Joel's prophecy, and the instructions given in Matt 24, in a very literal, chronological, and interwoven way. While nothing said in Matthew 24, nor in Peter's sermon says that the Lord would NOT return before the tribulation to rapture the church, we should note that nothing said Jesus would return before the tribulation. We do see, however, that a return of Jesus to gather the elect after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord, is spelled out in the clearest of terms, so we KNOW that is going to happen. We should decide which we think is better, to speculate about things that are never said in the Bible, or accept the things which are specifically stated. I prefer the latter, and cannot in good conscience, go with the the speculation approach. This is the end of Peter on the End Times, Part One More Parts may follow, as Peter does have more to say.

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement? Thanks for your help! P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these: 10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. 11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. People often say: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation. Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic

Are the Jewish people the church or is it a Gentile thing...if a Jewish person die can they go to heaven because they are Gods chosen or do they have to be born again....who is the bride of Christ...Jew Gentile or the church...thankyou...

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized. So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about: Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either: a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture. Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ. To those who want to reply in this thread: Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation. I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion. Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture. Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead. To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example: Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence. Thanks in advance

I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints. Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning. So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How? The Asleep Saints That Have Died: 1Thes 4:13-14 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: 1Thes 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV) Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth! Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely! The Asleep Saints That Died: Matt 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)

I know discussing this is cliche but, what do you guys think about this? Daniel 12:11-12"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!" Matthew 24:1515“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. I was reading this and thought hmmm what stands in the Holy Place today? The Dome of the Rock. So I looked up when it was it was built. 693AD and subtracted 1290 years and I got 597BC. The year the First Temple was destroyed and the articles were carried off.

I heard a preaching last night on TV that the false prophet or the 2nd beast of revelation is 2 nations and not a person. The reason they said this is because of the 2 horns on the false prophet or 2nd beast. Has anyone every heard this?

Possible signs of the End Times - false messiahs and churches, trouble in the Middle East, economic troubles, earthquakes, and so on.....

I would be grateful for your interpretations and discernment about a prophecy I've been reflecting on. It's in an online recording called "The Divine Parallax." It's 20 minutes long, but sprinkled throughout is a clear sense that God is warning us of a nuclear holocaust right around the corner if we don't do something about it. <<<Removed YouTube Link Per ToS>>> I've listened to this a couple of times with a deep spirit of discernment, and I believe I am hearing the voice of God in this prophecy. As Jesus said, "My sheep will know my voice." There's only one thing: the person channeling in the Spirit is using a lot of profane language. This was a bit of a turnoff at first until I reflected on what was actually being said. There's a lot of spiritual warfare going on here, so I wonder if that's the reason for the language. I believe in spiritual warfare, and I also believe in the real possibility that God still uses sinners like He used the wicked Balaam Son of Peor as a bringer of prophecy in the Book of Numbers. I also see the scripture that a "House divided against itself cannot stand," and can clearly hear Satan being ordered to vacate before God's voice can be discerned in the prophecy. Any distortions I see are a result of language alone, and how do you translate the presence of God? Divine imminance intact, God can use anybody. With whatever wisdom and insight God gives you, please interpret with me what this is. What is the meaning of this recording called "The Divine Parallax." What is going on here? I don't think there's Satanic deception going on while he's being pummeled, but what is this? At the very least, we're seeing a very close and personal image of spiritual warfare. It even goes as far as to claim that this is the approaching time of Armageddon.... A section of prophecy from the YouTube description: "Remember this fallen state and do not repeat it. You have the power to nuke the world; now, go be responsible. I don't want nuclear payloads armed at anybody. If there is one nuclear payload left on this Earth, I annihilate Earth. This is God's direct command to the powers that be. I, God, will send a comet and obliterate the Earth if you do not comply. God has the power to send a comet to obliterate the Earth in 2016. Now you have a choice, humanity. You either rot in your *profanity* and let this keep going-- And this is your choice. This is- This is ultimately humanity's choice. You either stew in your own destruction, or you fix this. This is Armageddon. It's real. Either we, the spiritual people of this world, take by force, down, the evil powers of this world . . ." Note: Please forgive that I am new here and do not know how you manage videos. Since I do not know how to embed a video, I have not posted to the General Video section, and since this is about prophecy it seemed more approriate here. It was previously posted to a conspiracy website... (Yes, I read conspiracy websites. Shame on me.)

What would be the point in us, as Christians, accepting a non-Christian source of info on a decidedly Christian matter. We are the ones to whom the Holy Spirit, the source of all truth, can be given. If I am missing something basic, please point that out.

http://brostef.typep...ocessing-f.html

I noticed he made fun of Harold Camping, and I don't blame him for that. Although it wasn't funny that Camping convinced so many people some gave away their life savings. However, things do seem to have changed since 2012 passed and it became 2013. So just maybe the Mayan's were onto something. But now this guy sounds he's saying 2015. There is always someone who thinks he knows what even Jesus didn't know.

I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one. If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies. Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say: "The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation" or they will say: "The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation" Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation. So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive. Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis. I order things this way: Daniels 70th week begins The time of birthpains and some tribulation The appearance of the man of sin Great tribulation God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation) 70th week closes Jesus appears, coming in the clouds The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection) Living believers follow just after The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies They return with Christ to the Earth Battle of Armegeddon Jesus wins The Millenium begins The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding. I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing. What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse. I will start of with an example. My assertion: The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation My texts: 1 Thess 4:15-17 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Rev 20:4-6 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.) My Conclusion: Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints. Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5) Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation. Reason for undertanding these verses in this way: A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here. I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions. Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation. I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so". So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture. Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence. Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts. I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat. I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.

Nice to meet you again rollingthunder, and thank you for your thoughtfull and educational reply to my post. Yes, no problem with the above, we meet him in the air: 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Notice that in the passage above, it says that God will bring with Jesus, those who have died. That sounds downward to me, but I could be wrong. Bring is toward us, take is away from us. The point is, we are going up to be with Him. Passage also mentions angels and trump, so I think we are on the same page there. However, the passage states He comes down, and we go up, and does not say whether we come down with Him, or we go up with Him after we meet in the air. I basically disagree with you about the two different types of coming. I find the one where Jesus comes again, after the tribulation, where He gathers the elects, from the earth, the living and the dead saints, and brings us to earth with Him, but I cannot find the other one. The only distinctions I notice in comings, are the words used, primarily parousia (coming alongside, coming to be present) and ercomai, (I come, I go). Context though as always, will generally tell you what is meant, but the Greek can shed light as well. Again, it does not state in that verse, what direction we go from that meeting, up or down. I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it looks to me like you are saying that in that verse (Mark 13:37) that that is not Jesus second coming to the earth. I must be misunderstanding you because immediately before the verse you quoted we see exactly what this is describing: 24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. (the upper case letters above are from the NASB, not my doing) The fact that verse 27 begins with "and" connects it to the verse before it, so it is saying "After the tribulation, things happen and Jesus comes in power and glory and gathers His elect. 100% consistant with what I am saying and what I believe. I do not disagree with you, as far as I can tell all verses and passages about Jesus coming are at His revelation or His appearing. I don't think that is the case. There are more that one sort of judgement. God can judge the earth and inflict his wrath upon it, just as the flood was a judgement, and Sodom and Gommorah were judgements. Those judgements are against a people and are not the judgement that is eternal. I am sure I do not have to convince you of that, it is for the benefit of those who might be reading this thread, who are not as well studied as you are. To that end I offer the following passage. Matt 11:23,24: 23"And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24"Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you." This demonstrates that there is yet a judgement to come upon Sodom. I beleive this will also be the case when the Lord come in Judgment. So no, I do not beleive beleive I have my judgements confused, I am noting the distinction of punishment on earth and punishment in eternity. That is not quite fair, I am not importing anything, I am using the parable of the wheat and tares to demonstrate that there is a type of person, who can appear outwardly like a beleiver, but is in fact, counterfiet. Nothing more need be implied than that. If it has no relation to the ten virgins, why does it start out saying "The kingdom of heaven is like . . ."? and in the parable of the tares and the parable of the virgins, the result is the same, weeping and gnashing of teeth for some, I think you are trying to hard to make distinctions that need not be made. A parable is only a parable after all, not everything in it has a one to one correlation with comething else. Being how parables are at times designed to obscure meaning, I prefer ones that the bible interprets, without me bringing too much into it myself. If you show me where what you are saying about them, are in the explanations Jesus gave, I am all ears, I apologize, if I am not quite as open to what you think it means. Again, as in many replies so far, my point is being glossed over and other details are being imported that I am not even talking about, except to answer off topic (to me) replies. Restating my point yet again: "So, the answer to our question of "when?" is: When the master comes and assigns the lazy slave to the place where the hypocrites are and there is wailing and knashing of teeth, THEN it will be comparable to ten virgins. In Matt 24, the topic is clearly not the rapture, but Jesus second coming, His glorious appearing after the tribulation. Also, we see this "wailing and gnashing of teeth language from Jesus, elsewhere in the book of Matthew, chapter 13 Well, it makes sense to me, and I do not feel that you have even remotely made a case for how it does not. Making sense, is not even what concerns me, I know my ways are not God's ways, so it certainly need not make sense to me to be true. I am not interested in what makes sense as much as I am interested in what the bible actually says. Whether or not it makes sense to us, it harmonizes with all passages (not all interpretations of all passages), does not need to infer anything that is not stated, or at least does not contradict anything that is stated, that is to say it is not contradicted by scripture, and is the plainest understanding of the related passages. I am not quite sure I even understand what your overall view is rollingthunder, so I am not sure how much we agree or disagree on other details of end times. It at least seems to me that you have Jesus coming back twice (as in the pretrib scenario), but I always marvel that no one has been able to produce a single verse that states any such notion, it is all infered in their view, but that inference is imported to the text, not extraced from it. Similar to another tenent of pretribism, which I also fail to understand, the notion of imminence, but that is another topic for another thread, and has likely already be discussed to death. Thank you for your wonderful tone and teaching spirit.

This is the prayer we should be praying now more than ever, as the day fast approaches. However, it seems that the hearts of many indeed have grown cold. From a search on the subject via Google: UPDATE: DAR Denies They are Censoring Prayers - Fox News Radio radio.foxnews.com › Home › topbar Patriotic Group Denies Removing Jesus & Telling Members to Stop ... www.theblaze.com/.../patriotic-group-denies-removing-jesu... Christians Deny Jesus at National Prayer Breakfast - Beyond ... rabbirami.blogspot.com/2009/.../christians-deny-jesus-at-national.ht... Bush Denies Jesus Christ! *** site and link removed ... the site has proven to be very untrustworthy and full of conspiracy theories and very little fact *** Police chaplains told not to use 'Jesus' in official prayers www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2898292/posts These are but a few... It has begun!!! We live in perilous times, brethren. But more than praying to escape tribulation or persecution, we need to pray that we will endure to the end. Ask yourself, will you stand with Jesus? Blessings xx 1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Very interesting video regarding the signs in the heavens in 2017... http://youtu.be/2QuMWEF7_lk