The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Spock]

I'm trying to keep up with this discussion but some of these posts are hard to follow. Anyhow, for those who care to know what I am thinking, being an OBJECTIVE bystander here, here goes my thoughts on 3 points of contention:

1. For what it's worth, salty's argument about shoving rev 5 (the elders stuff) into the millennium does not make sense at all. And you don't even have to be a Vulcan to know that. Lol. Imo, Marvelous Marv rebutted that beautifully.

2. Brother Argosy's argument that there is only one earthquake is found wanting. I do believe there is a difference between moving and disappearing, and I know God is not limited to one earthquake only, so let's not shove them all in one. Not that simple I'm afraid.

3. It makes much more sense to have the bowls follow the trumpets and the trumpets to follow the seals. I go back to this instruction I received a long time ago: unless it doesn't make sense, go with a literal translation. In this instance, to have each judgment be consecutive is not ILLOGICAL. Again, even a non Vulcan can see that.

Thoughts on my thoughts are always welcomed.

Spock on the sidelines

[Spock]

Lamad,

Wow, you just gave me something to ponder with your last post. I'm not sure it is right but it is certainly something to ponder.

I have struggled with this thought for a long time- are the seals in the 70th week of Daniel or before it. Your post has renewed my thoughts on this. Thanks for challenging me.

[ARGOSY]

3. It makes much more sense to have the bowls follow the trumpets and the trumpets to follow the seals. I go back to this instruction I received a long time ago: unless it doesn't make sense, go with a literal translation. In this instance, to have each judgment be consecutive is not ILLOGICAL. Again, even a non Vulcan can see that.

Thoughts on my thoughts are always welcomed.

Spock on the sidelines

 

 

Ok my thoughts on your thoughts are: how do you explain the visible appearing of the lamb to all the leaders of earth who run and hide in fear during the 6th seal?  

 

I look for the obvious, to me context of the 6th seal  is obviously the second coming, it would be interesting to hear a coherent explanation on exactly what is happening during the 6th seal if its not the second coming.

 

And some translations say removed... not moved. So certainly no contradiction and yet strong evidence for an overlap between the great earthquake and the appearance of the lamb to all the leaders of earth.... overlapping with the second coming

14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

[gdemoss]

What if the whole revelation was spanned over a longer time frame and we were actually already after the sixth seal already?

What if what we were defining the events to be were not really the things we thought they were?

I have lost sight of the rapture business and have focused on living for God in all I do. I know that what I have asked above will be met with a heavy dose of denial and skepticism but that is the nature of this type of discussion.

[other one]

I can't believe after 235 posts you guys haven't got this talked out.....

[Spock]

I can't believe after 235 posts you guys haven't got this talked out.....

I just got in it, so maybe I've renewed their energy.

Actually, I usually stay out of rapture timing discussions because I don't need to convince anyone what I think and I believe you can support more than one interpretation.

[Salty]

Look Salty, this is what happened to me: I was just minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27, and when my mind and my eyes got to the word "midst" God spoke: I heard His voice and His words. He said, "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." He added, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked."

 

 

Well, I FOUND what He sent me to find. The entire 70th week is "marked" (His word, not mine) by 7's. The week beings at the 7th seal and with the 30 minutes of silence, and ends with the 7th vial. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

 

When I found that the seals are not a part of the 70th week, I went back to chapter 4 and said to God:  "there must be clues here to show this is not part of the 70th week. So I read and meditated for days, and kept bugging God for help. I got stuck in John weeping, and kept bugging God: "Why did we need to know that John wept, and why did we need to know it was much?" Finally He answered (again I heard His voice and His words): "It shows timing." I read and read, and meditated, but could not see timing in this chapter at all, so I kept on bugging Him. Finally (perhaps after two weeks or so) He added, "it also shows the movement of time."

 

I kept on, trying to find any movement of time, and could not find that either. I guess I spent two months of intense study on these two chapters. Finally God showed mercy on me and said (again, voice and words) "I will ask you three questions about this passage: until you can answer them correctly, you will never understand this passage."

 

"1. Why did John not see me immediately at the right hand of the Father, when there are a dozen verses saying that is where I should be?  (I could not answer Him )

 

2. Why in the first search for one worthy to break the seals that John watched, was I not found? If you read ahead, you see I was found later.  (Again I had no answer)

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?"

 

I could not answer any of His questions. So again, I was in intense study for perhaps two weeks, trying to find the right answers to these questions. I got NO WHERE. I could not answer.

 

Finally after two or three week, He spoke again and just said, "go and study chapter 12." AT chapter 12 He spoke (again I heard words and voice) and explained how the first 5 verses were about His birth, and how the dragon had tried to kill Him as a child. He used two words that changed my entire thinking: He said, "this was a history lesson for John." I agreed with Him and then He said, "you can go back to chapters 4 & 5 now." He sent me to chapter 12 to get "history lesson" in my mind. Suddenly all was different: in two or three minutes I had the answer to all three questions. All I needed was to think history instead of future.

 

You can think future if you wish, but the head of the church, JESUS CHRIST taught me that this part of the vision, chapters 4 & 5 were a HISTORY LESSON. John was seeing into the throne room of the past, a time just before Jesus rose. There is ample proof in the text that this is truth. John saw the throne room before Jesus arose, then saw the very moment He arose - so the movement of time. The one thing Jesus did not address was the 24 elders.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I don't think you're finished asking Him. In the very first verse of Rev.4 John is being told he is going to be shown things that must be "hereafter". So the vision he was given there was not past history, but for the future.

 

The "new song" of Rev.5:9 is the song in Rev.14.

 

Rev.14:1-3

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

The "mount Sion" is the Zion on earth after Christ's return, and that's when the new song is sung.

 

So when we study a chapter in Revelation, or anywhere in God's Word, it is wrong to isolate the events in that chapter apart from the rest of God's Word, because The Lord did not put all the prophetic keys in just one place.

 

The subject of the seals in Rev.5 is about Christ Jesus only being able to open them in our understanding. The information the seals contain are a summary of the 7 signs of the end He first gave in His Olivet Discourse. This is why the 6th seal has events that only occur at the time of His second coming.

[Salty]

I'm trying to keep up with this discussion but some of these posts are hard to follow. Anyhow, for those who care to know what I am thinking, being an OBJECTIVE bystander here, here goes my thoughts on 3 points of contention:

1. For what it's worth, salty's argument about shoving rev 5 (the elders stuff) into the millennium does not make sense at all. And you don't even have to be a Vulcan to know that. Lol. Imo, Marvelous Marv rebutted that beautifully.

2. Brother Argosy's argument that there is only one earthquake is found wanting. I do believe there is a difference between moving and disappearing, and I know God is not limited to one earthquake only, so let's not shove them all in one. Not that simple I'm afraid.

3. It makes much more sense to have the bowls follow the trumpets and the trumpets to follow the seals. I go back to this instruction I received a long time ago: unless it doesn't make sense, go with a literal translation. In this instance, to have each judgment be consecutive is not ILLOGICAL. Again, even a non Vulcan can see that.

Thoughts on my thoughts are always welcomed.

Spock on the sidelines

 

No, he did not provide an accurate rebuttal, as can be easily seen with my answer to his post. So your just saying he did doesn't really provide any evidence to support his position either.

 

If you want to treat the 24 elders as already being in Heaven with their rewards and the seals with that, then that would mean the seals are past history, and it's obvious that is not true at all. Argosy's point about the events of Christ's second coming on the 6th seal easily disproves what lamad has said.

[Spock]

Hey Salty,

You are not UNBIASED (like me), so quit trying to influence the "unbiased with no agenda" judge. Lol

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

I don't think you're finished asking Him. In the very first verse of Rev.4 John is being told he is going to be shown things that must be "hereafter". So the vision he was given there was not past history, but for the future.

 

The "new song" of Rev.5:9 is the song in Rev.14.

 

Rev.14:1-3

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

The "mount Sion" is the Zion on earth after Christ's return, and that's when the new song is sung.

 

So when we study a chapter in Revelation, or anywhere in God's Word, it is wrong to isolate the events in that chapter apart from the rest of God's Word, because The Lord did not put all the prophetic keys in just one place.

 

The subject of the seals in Rev.5 is about Christ Jesus only being able to open them in our understanding. The information the seals contain are a summary of the 7 signs of the end He first gave in His Olivet Discourse. This is why the 6th seal has events that only occur at the time of His second coming.

 

"I don't think you're finished asking Him. In the very first verse of Rev.4 John is being told he is going to be shown things that must be "hereafter". So the vision he was given there was not past history, but for the future."

 

Why is it you are not reading basic English correctly? Are the events of chapter 21 "hereafter?"  Certainly they still are! Many chapters are "hereafter."

 

What you THINK he said was, "I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter.

 

He did not put that "only" there. So if He showed John ONE THING that was future, and then showed John chapter after chapter of mana recipies, He would not have broken this verse as it is written. The truth is, Several things In John's visions were of things PAST.

 

Then, you forgot this verse:

 

¹⁹ Write the things which thou hast seen, [PAST] and the things which are [PRESENT], and the things which shall be hereafter; [FUTURE].

 

 

"The "new song" of Rev.5:9 is the song in Rev.14."

 

Did you just SKIP OVER what this really says? John TELLS US THE SONG - the text in red. :

 

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

This is NOT the song of Chatper 14. Did you not read that ONLY THE 144,000 could learn the song of Chapter 14? Did you read the WORDS that that song? Of course you did not, for John did not write them.

 

The "mount Sion" is the Zion on earth after Christ's return, and that's when the new song is sung.

 

You are still batting ZERO. What part of "before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:" do you not understand? This is in HEAVEN. The 144,000 were RAPTURED as firstfruits unto God.

 

YOu are SO FAR OFF FROM TRUTH in the rest of your post I will not comment. Salty, you absoluty amaze me with your man made theories. WHY are you on a public forum teaching things SO FAR from the truth of scripture?

 

LAMAD

Edited July 23, 2014 by iamlamad