Pre trib rapture is fake

[WilliamL]

On 4/6/2016 at 6:06 PM, coheir said:

there are quiet a few around today that think they know more about the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic language than the scholars that produced the kjv hundreds of years ago and use their definitions to change meanings of words and verses. its like saying " I know God said he would preserve the word" but

it has been wrong for hundreds of years my translations are correct.

My old dog is better than your dog...is what I hear you saying. However, the angel said to Daniel,

Dan. 12:9 Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

The King James translators did not live in the time of the end, and they were fallible, like all men. Much new knowledge has arisen since that time, which has increased our understanding of biblical history and Scripture since the 1600s. (And no, the I don't include the Westcott-Hort crowd as the source of much new knowledge.) 

It should be expected that the closer we come to "the time of the end," "knowledge shall increase," just like it says in Dan. 12:4.

[WilliamL]

On 4/6/2016 at 9:58 PM, HeartSearcher said:

If I insinuated that debating is wrong I apologize that was not my intention.

Debates have their purposes even fiery ones, in debating even in the heat of battle one can grow and learn as both a person and a believer if one has a teachable heart. And in debating we also get to understand each other better and we also can see fiery debates as sort of a test. It is an interesting thing to go into fiery debates and see how much and how long you can respond in a loving patient mature manner, however like I said if the debate does nothing but make emotions rise and creates war within the body then that debate is no longer of value.

Amen to that!

And as a postscript, there has been some really meaty discussion going on here.

[SINNERSAVED]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

 Revelation 13:9   If any man have an ear, let him hear.

  Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

  Revelation 13:11   And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

Can you see the timing?  The first beast is already ruling (10 kings), now a warning just before the False Prophet emerges. 

 

  Mark 13:9   But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

  Mark 13:10   And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

  Mark 13:11   But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

  Mark 13:12   Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

  Mark 13:13   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

According to the Pre-trib theory, there is nothing to worry about.  According to Christ, here is where the "patience of the saints" will have to kick in.

Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It's actually got a dual meaning.  There's the spiritual captivity of giving the wrong advice "Don't worry, we'll be zapped up soon", or "take the Mark, it's ok, God understands you need to feed your children", and there's the dobbing in of a brother to the authorities - "I know where he's hiding, now give me that reward you advertised"

This is all happening around the time of the so called pre-trib rapture, the most important time of all and the most important decision we can ever make.

 

thank you Sister, for a great and eye opening passage, that we all needed to see, and you, placed it in the great order, to show the true meaning of what is happing, and how it will happen, it is and looks, very horrifying, of how it finale, will take place when they that are being of the world to save them selves, and then the false testamony  againsts, brothers and sisters, in the blood line and in the spiritual,  as the children of God , and How in the end the world will grow cold for they will crave to save there own lives if it takes turning on you and me,

and then how beautiful those that are filled in the holy spirit and sealed until the end will not have to think, but the spirit will testify through us, at the end of our lives, as we are given into death , for His name sake, it is a awesome sacrifice, and yet, no one has even realize the depth this has and the consequences it holds, and what we are so really blessed, to know, that the truth will set us free, even to the last breath that we take,

this was a very powerful passage ,that everyone needs to understand our position, and how we are in the faith , as true believers

[coheir]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

My old dog is better than your dog...is what I hear you saying. However, the angel said to Daniel,

Dan. 12:9 Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

The King James translators did not live in the time of the end, and they were fallible, like all men. Much new knowledge has arisen since that time, which has increased our understanding of biblical history and Scripture since the 1600s. (And no, the I don't include the Westcott-Hort crowd as the source of much new knowledge.) 

It should be expected that the closer we come to "the time of the end," "knowledge shall increase," just like it says in Dan. 12:4.

There are individuals that study old languages and decide they have found the correct meaning of a word or verse that has been used for over a thousand years. Then they post this new meaning trying to convince people that they have the wrong understanding because he/she just found the correct meaning

and yes my old translation is better than anything written in the last 20 years.

[WilliamL]

mmm

1 hour ago, coheir said:

There are individuals that study old languages and decide they have found the correct meaning of a word or verse that has been used for over a thousand years. Then they post this new meaning trying to convince people that they have the wrong understanding because he/she just found the correct meaning

and yes my old [KJV] translation is better than anything written in the last 20 years.

"[In the mid-18th century] Parris and Blayney sought consistently to remove those elements of the 1611 and subsequent editions that they believed were due to the vagaries of printers, while incorporating most of the revised readings of the Cambridge editions of 1629 and 1638, and each also introducing a few improved readings of their own. They undertook the mammoth task of standardizing the wide variation in punctuation and spelling of the original, making many thousands of minor changes to the text; although some of these updates appear to alter the ostensible sense – as when the original text of Genesis 2:21 "in stead" ("in that place") was standardized to read "instead" ("as an alternative"). In addition, Blayney and Parris thoroughly revised and greatly extended the italicization of "supplied" words not found in the original languages by cross-checking against the presumed source texts. Blayney seems to have worked from the 1550 Stephanus edition of the Textus Receptus, rather than the later editions of Beza that the translators of the 1611 New Testament had favoured; accordingly the current Oxford standard text alters around a dozen italicizations where Beza and Stephanus differ.^[97]Like the 1611 edition, the 1769 Oxford edition included the Apocrypha..."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

So which version of the King James translation do you use?

Does it contain the Apocrypha?

Do you reject the later emendations and stick to the original 1611 as written?

You see, even the English scholars realized the imperfections of the original KJV Bible.

[7Dove77]

Coheir,

Very good post,

Jesuits,have changed so many things ,in the world.

This is a wide spread,subject,A topic,all its own...

 

Blessings,

7Dove77

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I hadn't paid much attention to that little subtlety before.  We know that the faith and patience of the saints is in resisting the mark and worshiping the beast from Revelation 14:

• And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”  Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Revelation 14:11-12

So, Revelation 13:10 is in the context of accepting or rejecting the mark.  It seems to be describing two responses to the "worship or die" ultimatum that we as believers are to exercise patience in avoiding.  We are not to give in to it as the deceived will, neither are we to take up arms against it.  We are to be patient and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.  Proverbs 25:11

[coheir]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

mmm

"[In the mid-18th century] Parris and Blayney sought consistently to remove those elements of the 1611 and subsequent editions that they believed were due to the vagaries of printers, while incorporating most of the revised readings of the Cambridge editions of 1629 and 1638, and each also introducing a few improved readings of their own. They undertook the mammoth task of standardizing the wide variation in punctuation and spelling of the original, making many thousands of minor changes to the text; although some of these updates appear to alter the ostensible sense – as when the original text of Genesis 2:21 "in stead" ("in that place") was standardized to read "instead" ("as an alternative"). In addition, Blayney and Parris thoroughly revised and greatly extended the italicization of "supplied" words not found in the original languages by cross-checking against the presumed source texts. Blayney seems to have worked from the 1550 Stephanus edition of the Textus Receptus, rather than the later editions of Beza that the translators of the 1611 New Testament had favoured; accordingly the current Oxford standard text alters around a dozen italicizations where Beza and Stephanus differ.^[97]Like the 1611 edition, the 1769 Oxford edition included the Apocrypha..."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

So which version of the King James translation do you use?

Does it contain the Apocrypha?

Do you reject the later emendations and stick to the original 1611 as written?

You see, even the English scholars realized the imperfections of the original KJV Bible.

you did not get my meaning. I am talking about individuals in last few years have begun to translate their own Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

 

 

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

You don't study like a Berean because they called me last night and told how they study.  And you Sister, don't study the way they told me they study.  

I found that a bit amusing myself.  I've noticed that some people tend to use certain phrases that they think are magical and somehow infuse their comments with truth.  In addition to referencing the Bereans, people like to use . . .

• must be rightly divided
• understood in its proper context
• requires a careful reading

and so on, and so forth.  If one has engaged in these points, which are certainly valid, then let them demonstrate it.  Invoking them in a response doesn't confer any more truth to what has been said or make it any more valid.  Sometimes, it's an indication of the opposite.

[MorningGlory]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

 Revelation 13:9   If any man have an ear, let him hear.

  Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

  Revelation 13:11   And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

Can you see the timing?  The first beast is already ruling (10 kings), now a warning just before the False Prophet emerges. 

 

  Mark 13:9   But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

  Mark 13:10   And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

  Mark 13:11   But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

  Mark 13:12   Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

  Mark 13:13   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

According to the Pre-trib theory, there is nothing to worry about.  According to Christ, here is where the "patience of the saints" will have to kick in.

Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It's actually got a dual meaning.  There's the spiritual captivity of giving the wrong advice "Don't worry, we'll be zapped up soon", or "take the Mark, it's ok, God understands you need to feed your children", and there's the dobbing in of a brother to the authorities - "I know where he's hiding, now give me that reward you advertised"

This is all happening around the time of the so called pre-trib rapture, the most important time of all and the most important decision we can ever make.

 

I see no connection between what you posted and the timing of the Rapture.