Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now that is an interesting phrase. I have my thoughts but am interested in what it seems to mean to you -Eschatological apostasy.

Well Marilyn, we've had apostasy for ages now.  Even in Christian circles, none of us has been perfect, or become perfect.  We still have our little sin issues, though not to the degree or intent that we did before.  Do we depart from the Law?  Yes, unfortunately.  No one can obey all the Law, and I'm not suggesting we should in the sense of keeping all the various commandments given to the Jews.  No, all we are required to do is love God and love our neighbor - and even with that reduction: we fail miserably.  Does every Christian strive to spread the Gospel?  No.  Well, that was a commandment from Jesus.  So do we depart from the rule?  Yes, even though we have faith and try to live by faith.  I continually fail; I am still a sinner.

The larger portion of the world still remains in rebellion to God, and I think they've been a majority of population since the time of Christ Jesus too.  They at times flaunt the Law.  At other times they are in open apostasy to the Lord of Heaven and Earth ridiculing what they cannot even hope to understand.

So in terms of apostasy, we're rife with it, but still this is not eschatological apostasy.

No, this apostasy reaches further.  It is a complete rejection of Christ done in an open manner with that as its sole purpose.  It is also aligned with a shift away from God to a beast of a man.  Eschatological apostasy seeks to make an enemy of God, and to openly think they can best Him.  All those end-of-the-world movies that they've been making?  It is a presage to the animus they will feel toward God in the end-times.  He will be the external force, and they will rally together against Him.  And instead of coming to grips with their sin and repenting, and asking forgiveness; instead of worshiping He who can destroy body and soul; they will regard a mortal man as their god, and they will worship him instead, and cheer him on as he speaks out against the Most High.

This is not being done today, even by the Satanists and atheists.

When the whole world unites against God - that is eschatological apostasy in my opinion.

[Last Daze]

On 10/15/2016 at 6:53 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Well Marilyn, we've had apostasy for ages now.  Even in Christian circles, none of us has been perfect, or become perfect.  We still have our little sin issues, though not to the degree or intent that we did before.  Do we depart from the Law?  Yes, unfortunately.  No one can obey all the Law, and I'm not suggesting we should in the sense of keeping all the various commandments given to the Jews.  No, all we are required to do is love God and love our neighbor - and even with that reduction: we fail miserably.  Does every Christian strive to spread the Gospel?  No.  Well, that was a commandment from Jesus.  So do we depart from the rule?  Yes, even though we have faith and try to live by faith.  I continually fail; I am still a sinner.

The larger portion of the world still remains in rebellion to God, and I think they've been a majority of population since the time of Christ Jesus too.  They at times flaunt the Law.  At other times they are in open apostasy to the Lord of Heaven and Earth ridiculing what they cannot even hope to understand.

So in terms of apostasy, we're rife with it, but still this is not eschatological apostasy.

No, this apostasy reaches further.  It is a complete rejection of Christ done in an open manner with that as its sole purpose.  It is also aligned with a shift away from God to a beast of a man.  Eschatological apostasy seeks to make an enemy of God, and to openly think they can best Him.  All those end-of-the-world movies that they've been making?  It is a presage to the animus they will feel toward God in the end-times.  He will be the external force, and they will rally together against Him.  And instead of coming to grips with their sin and repenting, and asking forgiveness; instead of worshiping He who can destroy body and soul; they will regard a mortal man as their god, and they will worship him instead, and cheer him on as he speaks out against the Most High.

This is not being done today, even by the Satanists and atheists.

When the whole world unites against God - that is eschatological apostasy in my opinion.

I agree and see this as a reference to eschatological apostasy:

• “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another."  Matthew 24:9-10

Taking offense at the name of Jesus when the worship or die ultimatum comes down; saving their lives rather than losing them for His sake.

[Revelation Man]

On 10/15/2016 at 8:30 AM, OneLight said:

Then please tell me why you are trying to make apostasia to be the same as harpazo ?  You know the difference.  Apostasia means to turn away voluntarily from and harpazo means to be taken from by force.   To fall away from is not the rapture.

Because they were speaking about an event which had already been discussed in depth when the were together. 

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things ? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Just like if I was speaking to a large group of people and I explained something God had explained to me in depth. And I said to them in person, listen guys, do not be afraid that the Day of the Lords Wrath is upon you, because the Church will be Raptured away from the earth before that happens, and right after that the Anti-Christ will come forth, until then the Holy Spirit will block Satan from bringing forth this Evil Tyrant of a man.

 

Then I get a letter from this same group, telling me half of the group thinks we are in the Day of the LORDS WRATH and have somehow missed the Rapture (rapture we had spoken of !!), and they have been told this by some other " men of God". Then I write them back and say.............

 

Hey, as pertaining to the RAPTURE and the Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath, do not let people upset you man, as per the Day of the Lord or Gods wrath, for that day will not come upon you unless there is a Departure first man (We were speaking about the RAPTURE and about being in Gods WRATH !!), then and only then will the Anti-Christ be brought forth........Don't you guys remember I told you these things when we were together before ? You know what restrains him (Holy Spirit THEY WERE TOLD THIS BEFORE) so that he can only come forth when God says it is his time to come forth (The Gospel has to be preached unto all the world first, then he can come forth, that is why he is RESTRAINED.) then the Holy Spirit will stop blocking Satan from bringing forth this EVIL TYRANT.

 

Paul was speaking about the Rapture and the Day of the Lord, not a church leaving the faith.  I wouldn't have to say Rapture if it is WELL KNOWN what we were speaking about, and they had SPOKEN ABOUT IT.....So he just says a Departure, for everyone knows exactly what Paul is speaking of. 

[OneLight]

45 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Because they were speaking about an event which had already been discussed in depth when the were together. 

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things ? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Just like if I was speaking to a large group of people and I explained something God had explained to me in depth. And I said to them in person, listen guys, do not be afraid that the Day of the Lords Wrath is upon you, because the Church will be Raptured away from the earth before that happens, and right after that the Anti-Christ will come forth, until then the Holy Spirit will block Satan from bringing forth this Evil Tyrant of a man.

 

Then I get a letter from this same group, telling me half of the group thinks we are in the Day of the LORDS WRATH and have somehow missed the Rapture (rapture we had spoken of !!), and they have been told this by some other " men of God". Then I write them back and say.............

 

Hey, as pertaining to the RAPTURE and the Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath, do not let people upset you man, as per the Day of the Lord or Gods wrath, for that day will not come upon you unless there is a Departure first man (We were speaking about the RAPTURE and about being in Gods WRATH !!), then and only then will the Anti-Christ be brought forth........Don't you guys remember I told you these things when we were together before ? You know what restrains him (Holy Spirit THEY WERE TOLD THIS BEFORE) so that he can only come forth when God says it is his time to come forth (The Gospel has to be preached unto all the world first, then he can come forth, that is why he is RESTRAINED.) then the Holy Spirit will stop blocking Satan from bringing forth this EVIL TYRANT.

 

Paul was speaking about the Rapture and the Day of the Lord, not a church leaving the faith.  I wouldn't have to say Rapture if it is WELL KNOWN what we were speaking about, and they had SPOKEN ABOUT IT.....So he just says a Departure, for everyone knows exactly what Paul is speaking of. 

OK, so this is because you believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture timeline?  This is the only way your interpretation would work.  You see, I do not follow that school of thought, but that is a subject for another thread.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/15/2016 at 10:50 PM, Revelation Man said:

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

 

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

Shalom, Revelation Man.

It's not a false teaching, per se, but it is COUCHED in false teaching. Allow me to explain: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is one verse out of the second letter to the ekkleesia at Thessalonika, Asia Minor (Turkey), by the Apostle ("the Sent One") Paul or Rav Sha'uwl ("Rabbi or Teacher Saul"). That "ekkleesia" is a "called-out" group that we call a "Messianic Community" because it consisted of believers who were both Jews and Gentiles in a single body, having been started in the Jewish synagogue there in that Gentile town.

Thus, there is a JEWISH OVERTONE to the whole letter that often goes undetected by the Gentile believers today. To ignore this overtone or to be ignorant of it will cloud the meaning of the text. For instance, the Greek word "anomia" needs to be interpreted in light of its Hebrew origins:

NT:458 anomia (an-om-ee'-ah); from NT:459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:
KJV - iniquity,  transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

NT:459 anomos (an'-om-os); from NT:1 [a] (as a negative particle) and NT:3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:
KJV - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

NT:460 anomoos (an-om'-oce); adverb from NT:459; lawlessly, i.e. (specially) not amenable to (the Jewish) law:
KJV - without law.

NT:3551 nomos (nom'-os); from a primary nemoo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):
KJV - law.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, this word is SPECIFICALLY talking about violating the Law of God or the Torah, which is both the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible) where it is found and the 613 commandments that TOGETHER are considered the ONE Law of God! Remember: Ya`aqov (James) said,

James 2:10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
KJV

So, I think what would make this person memorable is that he would be a Jew who would NOT follow Torah!

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

OK, so this is because you believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture timeline?  This is the only way your interpretation would work.  You see, I do not follow that school of thought, but that is a subject for another thread.

Not at all, there is NO WAY that anything fits per all of scriptures but a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Even this verse, if it were apostasy would change nothing. I used to think like this when I thought it was apostasy............ That the Church would Fall Away ( but I do not know how, because the true church can not fall away from God, the world can however get courser and more vile Romans 1 ) then the Rapture would happen but is not spoken of here, and the the Anti-Christ would come forth. The facts are however, it is fairly clear to me that Paul is speaking about the Rapture in 2 Thess. 2 (Gathering together unto Christ) the first 7 English translations used Depart or Departed. The Vulgate for 1000 years from 400-1400 used Departure, so the very first translation using "Falling Away" was the KJV.  The Rapture was being spoken of, and Paul says come on guys, I have already told you that before the wrath of God comes upon the earth, there will be a Departure first, then the Anti-Christ has to be revealed/Brought forth before what happens ? THE DAY OF GODS WRATH ARRIVES........That was what they were in FEAR OF !! It is very obvious to me, HOWEVER.......If anyone wants to bring forth any scriptures that they say shows the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, I can show that the scriptures are only MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

 

KEY...........Revelation 19 can not happen without a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 

I do not mind disagreement or debate. I will not belittle anyone else's belief, I might challenge it, but I will not mock others understandings. I would ask the very same courtesy, we do not have to be rude to each other. Our goals should be the same, to come closer to God every day, to save souls, and to understand truths. 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

It's not a false teaching, per se, but it is COUCHED in false teaching. Allow me to explain: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is one verse out of the second letter to the ekkleesia at Thessalonika, Asia Minor (Turkey), by the Apostle ("the Sent One") Paul or Rav Sha'uwl ("Rabbi or Teacher Saul"). That "ekkleesia" is a "called-out" group that we call a "Messianic Community" because it consisted of believers who were both Jews and Gentiles in a single body, having been started in the Jewish synagogue there in that Gentile town.

Thus, there is a JEWISH OVERTONE to the whole letter that often goes undetected by the Gentile believers today. To ignore this overtone or to be ignorant of it will cloud the meaning of the text. For instance, the Greek word "anomia" needs to be interpreted in light of its Hebrew origins:

NT:458 anomia (an-om-ee'-ah); from NT:459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:
KJV - iniquity,  transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

NT:459 anomos (an'-om-os); from NT:1 [a] (as a negative particle) and NT:3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:
KJV - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

NT:460 anomoos (an-om'-oce); adverb from NT:459; lawlessly, i.e. (specially) not amenable to (the Jewish) law:
KJV - without law.

NT:3551 nomos (nom'-os); from a primary nemoo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):
KJV - law.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, this word is SPECIFICALLY talking about violating the Law of God or the Torah, which is both the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible) where it is found and the 613 commandments that TOGETHER are considered the ONE Law of God! Remember: Ya`aqov (James) said,

James 2:10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
KJV

So, I think what would make this person memorable is that he would be a Jew who would NOT follow Torah!

I get that, kind of. But no Christians follow the Torah, the Law is supposed to be written in our Hearts and God says he is going to write the Laws in Israels Hearts (His People) before He comes back again.  I understand this man is the Lawless One, of course he is since he opposes everything that God/Jesus stands for. But the point of the thread is this passage is about the Churches Departure (from the earth) as opposed to the Churches Departure from the Faith.  In actuality the true Church can not go into apostasy. Romans chapter 1 is about the wicked men of the world becoming more wicked. Some of the Church will no doubt choose the world over the Church, but that has always happened at times. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

None of the following passages which I will present, allow a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Not at all, there is NO WAY that anything fits per all of scriptures but a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

If anyone wants to bring forth any scriptures that they say shows the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, I can show that the scriptures are only MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

Let's look first at ONE passage, which Revelation Man misunderstands.

2nd Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is tied directly to our being gathered to Him in verse 1.
That Day, the Day Jesus Returns, is preceded by apostasy and the Son of Perdition being revealed in verse 3.

But Revelation Man says:

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 then the Rapture would happen but is not spoken of here, and the the Anti-Christ would come forth.
The Rapture was being spoken of, and Paul says come on guys, I have already told you that before the wrath of God comes upon the earth, there will be a Departure first, then the Anti-Christ has to be revealed/Brought forth before what happens

Now as to whom has the misunderstanding...

Even after going on about the differences between apostasia and harpazo, Revelation Man still is confusing one with the other based on an ignorant, first translation.
_________________________________________________________

Let's look at another key passage in eschatology:

Perilous Times
Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), ...21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short...

The Glorious Return
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Here again - AFTER the (midpoint) abomination(s) desolation - comes the Great Tribulation.
After the Great Tribulation comes Jesus' Return on the clouds.
THEN the Elect are gathered together.
_______________________________________________________

Let's look at another sequence of events in end-time prophecy:

The Beast from the Earth
Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name...

CHAPTER 14
The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion: verses 1-5
Vision of the Angel with the Gospel: verses 6-13
The Reapers
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Here again, after the midpoint abomination of the talking image is set up -
And after the two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for ONLY the Elect - 
Does Jesus return on the clouds to gather the Harvest.
_________________________________________________________

Let's look at another point:

The Sixth Seal—Terror
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...
CHAPTER 7
An Interlude verses 1-3
The 144,000 verses 4-8
A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands...
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here we have the same sun/moon/star sign that Jesus said would come after the Great Tribulation - 
The sun/moon/star sign which OT says appears before the Day of the Lord - 
And then we have the same 144,000 as are mustered on Mount Zion as Revelation 14 foretells - 
And THEN we see the very definition of the Church and OT Saints - who wash their robes clean in the blood of the Lamb - 
Coming OUT OF the very same Great Tribulation Jesus said would be cut short by the sun/moon/star event and His Coming!
_________________________________________________________

We do not have ANY evidence in the Bible for a Rapture coming before the one 'seven' begins.

We DO have evidence in the Bible in the Gospel, the Epistles of Paul, and twice in Revelation; for a Rapture coming AFTER the midpoint abomination and AFTER the shortened Great Tribulation ON the Day of the Lord.

[Retrobyter]

I get that, kind of. But no Christians follow the Torah, the Law is supposed to be written in our Hearts and God says he is going to write the Laws in Israels Hearts (His People) before He comes back again.  I understand this man is the Lawless One, of course he is since he opposes everything that God/Jesus stands for. But the point of the thread is this passage is about the Churches Departure (from the earth) as opposed to the Churches Departure from the Faith.  In actuality the true Church can not go into apostasy. Romans chapter 1 is about the wicked men of the world becoming more wicked. Some of the Church will no doubt choose the world over the Church, but that has always happened at times. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You've raised some interesting points:

1. "No Christians follow the Torah." Really? I hope that ISN'T true! First of all, it was the Torah that said, "Thou shalt not kill," and "Thou shalt not steal." Many translate "Torah" as "the Law." Actually, a better translation would be "Instruction." And, Yeshua` HIMSELF said, 

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law (Torah), or the prophets (Navi'iym): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (the Torah), till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (mitsvowt), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

We've had bad teaching regarding the "Torah." While the keeping of Torah is no longer required to atone for sins, the keeping of Torah is still a VERY GOOD IDEA! These mitsvowt (commandments, all 613 of them) were God's INSTRUCTION for righteous living and living healthy and well! While Yeshua` kept all of them FOR us and died a cursed death anyway as the Lamb of God, in spite of His righteousness, they are STILL God's Instruction! They still reflect how God wants us to live! The Torah that is written in our hearts should NOT be a different Torah than that written on the pages of God's Word! "He changes not!"

Malachi 3:6
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
KJV

You also said,

2. "God says he is going to write the Laws in Israel's Hearts (His People) before He comes back again." I would like to challenge this statement. The Scriptures say,

Jeremiah 31:31-36
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
KJV

It's the phrase, "before He comes back again," that I challenge!

Paul said,

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't change His mind!)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

"All Israel" is NOT just an arbitrary nation or a group of living people! This is GOD'S chosen people! This is the Messiah's FAMILY, LIVING OR DEAD!! This is because "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living!" Yeshua` said this to the Ts'duqiym (Sadducees) who didn't believe in the Resurrection:

Matthew 22:31-32
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV

He was NOT saying that they were already living in some "Heaven" or something; He was saying that there would be a RESURRECTION! After all, that WAS His context!

Consider this: To whom does the "Messiah" mean something? To whom does the "Messiah" belong? Over whom is the "Messiah" going to reign? To whom were the prophecies about the "Messiah" given? This is NOT a simple matter! This "apostasy" is NOT about the "church," as the Gentile gathering of believers; it's about the children of Israel being led by a person not living according to the Torah!

Finally, this is NOT about only those who are alive! This is about those who are RESURRECTED, as well! And, that's NOT just the ones who have been justified by God ("saved")! It's about those who are "holy!" That is, they are "sanctified," "set apart," "cleansed" by God!

Zechariah 12 is a key passage. 

Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them. 

9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves. 
CJB

Now, look at Luke 3:

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri, 
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah, 
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah, 
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan, 
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God. 
CJB

These names in Zechariah are names within Yeshua`s lineage! Therefore, this rescue in Zechariah has to be AFTER the Resurrection!

[Revelation Man]

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You've raised some interesting points:

1. "No Christians follow the Torah." Really? I hope that ISN'T true! First of all, it was the Torah that said, "Thou shalt not kill," and "Thou shalt not steal." Many translate "Torah" as "the Law." Actually, a better translation would be "Instruction." And, Yeshua` HIMSELF said, 

The Law can only condemn those that do not keep the Law in full !! If you are guilty of violating one whit (small bit) of the Law you or guilty of violating ALL of the Law. Therefore Gods people MUST live in Faith as Faithful Abraham did. The Covenant was with Abraham who believed God thus God accounted it unto him for righteousness, and Abraham believed in the SEED (Jesus) to come, not in a Law which came 430 years later. I will post a few scriptures that back this up, but remember, the Pharisees and Scribes fault were they trusted in the Law, but Rejected God (Jesus). Jesus was the Promise, not the Law !! God said he would write the Laws on our Hearts, meaning the Holy Spirit in us would guide us unto ALL Righteousness. Not by regimental adherence to Laws, but by Hearing the Voice of God, guiding us unto truth and righteousness. 

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh ?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law ? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

{{The Law was added 430 years later because of SIN....but that can not wipe out the original Covenant between God and Abraham, which was the PROMISE of a coming SEED (Jesus/Messiah) which would wipe away the sins of all men. Only FAITH in him is accounted to us as Righteousness }}

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

{{ I do not usually post this many scriptures, but it is important that I point out, we do not need Laws !! We need Faith in Jesus Christ who justifies us. We are as FILTHY RAGS, Jesus is our ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS. We have to believe God, then via the Holy Spirit he gives unto us, we will come forth unto all righteousness, which is OF HIM, not of us. }}

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law (Torah), or the prophets (Navi'iym): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus did fulfill the Law. He said none of the Law will pass away until all is FULFILLED. Jesus' death made the law of none effect. He IS OUR SACRIFICE, there is now no need for a sacrifice, we are now under the Blood of Christ Jesus, thus the Blood Requirement for the purging of Sins has been Fulfilled. Jesus said on the cross, IT IS FINISHED !! Jesus is at the right hand of God making intercession for us even now as we speak. Jesus FULFILLED ALL. 

The deal is, with the Holy Spirit we obey God because we love God, and want to be LIKE UNTO God. Not because there is a "LAW." We long in our hearts to be like Jesus/God.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Malachi 3:6
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
KJV

This is true.......The Promise was the original Covenant, NOT THE LAW.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You also said,

2. "God says he is going to write the Laws in Israel's Hearts (His People) before He comes back again." I would like to challenge this statement. The Scriptures say,

Jeremiah 31:31-36
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
KJV

It's the phrase, "before He comes back again," that I challenge!

Paul said,

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't change His mind!)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

"All Israel" is NOT just an arbitrary nation or a group of living people! This is GOD'S chosen people! This is the Messiah's FAMILY, LIVING OR DEAD!! This is because "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living!" Yeshua` said this to the Ts'duqiym (Sadducees) who didn't believe in the Resurrection:

Matthew 22:31-32
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV

He was NOT saying that they were already living in some "Heaven" or something; He was saying that there would be a RESURRECTION! After all, that WAS His context!

Consider this: To whom does the "Messiah" mean something? To whom does the "Messiah" belong? Over whom is the "Messiah" going to reign? To whom were the prophecies about the "Messiah" given? This is NOT a simple matter! This "apostasy" is NOT about the "church," as the Gentile gathering of believers; it's about the children of Israel being led by a person not living according to the Torah!

Finally, this is NOT about only those who are alive! This is about those who are RESURRECTED, as well! And, that's NOT just the ones who have been justified by God ("saved")! It's about those who are "holy!" That is, they are "sanctified," "set apart," "cleansed" by God!

To start off the Jeremiah passages are saying that God is going to write the Laws on Israels hearts at a later date, and the Covenant will not be like unto the Law of Moses which He had to set forth because Israel kept serving false Gods, it will be a NEW COVENANT (To Israel) even though it was the ORIGINAL PROMISE to Abraham. 

I will explain the "Before he comes back" in depth, in time. Blindness has come, in part to Israel, just like Paul said, because of their Harlot ways against God, and their rejection of Jesus Christ their Messiah. That is what the Seventy Sevens of Daniel is all about, Israel has One Week left to make Atonement for her sins, that will start when the Church is Rapured to Heaven to Marry Jesus the Lamb, Israel is God's Bride already !! Gods calling is without repentance, Israel will always be the Wheat. But eight now they are BLINDED, there are some Messianic Jews, but ALL ISRAEL, or the WHOLE OF ISRAEL, as a NATION does not serve God, they still serve the Law, and if a Jewish brother turns to Jesus, they shame him, despise him, and mostly hate him. They do not detest Christians just Jewish Christians.......am i right ? YES. All Israel will be saved, means that Israel as a WHOLE NATION will come back unto their Messiah. I will explain to you what I mean later, but Zechariah is one of my favorite chapters so lets delve into that. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Zechariah 12 is a key passage. 

Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them. 

9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves. 
CJB

I will just post Zechariah verses and explain in between passages, makes it easier for me.....

Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. {{ Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling, all these countries arguing now who it belongs to, it is a burdensome stone that will cause people/nations to be hurt in some manner who come against Israel, because after 2500 years of turning his back unto Israel fir their sins, God will turn back unto Israel, he will once again FIGHT HER BATTLES, and cause blindness and astonishment to the enemy. }}

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. {{ God will pour the Spirit of PRAYER and GRACE upon the House of Israel/Judah, and THEY WILL LOOK UPON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED (Jesus) and mourn. Israel accepts Jesus as the Messiah, at the end, during the Tribulation, during the final week of Daniels 70th Week Decree. Now lets jump to Chapter 13. }}

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

{{ In THAT DAY....In what day ? In that Day that Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah !! A fountain (Blood of Jesus/Holy Spirit) is OPENED to Israel, for SINS and for UNCLEANNESS. (Chills) THIS IS JESUS' BLOOD, Israel accepts their Messiah, and they are ATONED just like Daniels 70th Week Decree says the will have to be, before the 70th Week Ends !! Why do we think God turns His face back upon Israel ? Why does He protect them in the Wilderness when they Flee in Rev 12 ? Because they REPENT, and turn unto Jesus as their Messiah, and we know that Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back to God (Malachi 4:5-6) before the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath/Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble or Daniels 70th Week.....Read the 6 Goals that HAVE TO HAPPEN for Daniels 70th Week to come to pass, I will post it below, at the bottom. }}

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

{{ I see this as saying that AFTER Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, any person who speaks lies against the Messiah, will be doing so at their own peril. Not eve their parents will believe the FORMER RABBIS, but most will be ASHAMED of her former beliefs and understandings, because they will understand they spoke against the very God that Loved them, JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God, who died for their sins. They shall say, I am no prophet, I am a Farmer !! }}

Then in Zechariah chapter 14, we understand that Jesus sets foot on Mt. Zion, then he goes forth to conquer the Nations (Babylon) that come against Israel, that will happen at Meggido, or Armageddon. Amen. The SIX GOALS that have to come to pass before this Decree against Israel is FULFILLED, and these all have to come to pass before Jesus returns !!

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( Israels Revolt against God must CEASE )
2. Make and end of sins ( An end to everyday sins, only Jesus can bring this era forth )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( Israel HAS to Atone for her Sins...Zechariah 13:1 )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness  ( Jesus will brong this in with his rule )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( All prophecy must be fulfilled )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( I think this is anointing Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords )

 

GOD BLESS