Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Last trumpet on the last day according to the word of God.  Stay alert and awake and persevere to the end, my friend.

If I were you, I would camp out on hebrews 9:28.

[Revelation Man]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

Correct!

But it's not pretrib, it's pre wrath. Pre 'sudden destruction', which is the wrath of the Lamb and not the whole of the last week.

No, its Pre Tribulation as its best known, but the proper term would be Pre 70th week. All time is Tribulation, we are in the 2000 some odd year Church Age GREAT TRIBULATION as in 2000>7. After the Rapture its still Tribulation, because Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation, so those converts during the 70th week will have tribulation on this earth, then the Greatest Ever Time of Troubles is a 3.5 year period of time/God's Judgment on the world.

The Thessalonian chapter references Jesus coming like a thief in the night via His Wrath or the Day of the Lord. His Wrath starts the Day of the Lord and lasts 3.5 years BEFORE Jesus returns, BUTTTTTTTTTTTTT, His Judgment came 3.5 before Jesus returns. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they don't have to fear God's Wrath/DOTL, because they are of the light, and thus they being not of the darkness don't have to worry about the Day of the Lord, 2 Thess. 2:1 says we will be gathered unto Christ Jesus via the DEPARTURE. 

We {Raptured Church} are shown in Rev. 4 and 5, IN HEAVEN before the Seals are opened, its not that difficult TBH. We {Raptured Church} are shown in heaven again in Rev. 7:9-16 after the Seals have been opened. We are also shown in Rev. 19 marrying the Lamb, then returning with Jesus where the AC/Beast is awaiting to do battle with Jesus at Armageddon. I really don't get how full grown Christians can't see these passages for what they are. 

Satan has taken a few scriptures and TWISTED THEM, and no matter how many times someone points them out, it lands on deaf ears. It is what it is.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

No, its Pre Tribulation as its best known, but the proper term would be Pre 70th week. All time is Tribulation, we are in the 2000 some odd year Church Age GREAT TRIBULATION as in 2000>7.

Good story, but just imagination. There is zero biblical evidence for the above.

 

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation,"

Only after the A of D is there 'great tribulation'. This is an A of D associated with the end of the age and Jesus' coming, "“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”" 

In no way is it 2000 years as, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved" So either it all happened in the past and it's over or it's yet to come. It's yet to come. 

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

After the Rapture its still Tribulation, because Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation, so those converts during the 70th week will have tribulation on this earth, then the Greatest Ever Time of Troubles is a 3.5 year period of time/God's Judgment on the world.

Sure, if one conflates everything with everything else anything is possible. 

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If I were you, I would camp out on hebrews 9:28.

• So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.  Hebrews 9:28

Yes, I eagerly await His return but His return is not imminent.  We've been over this time and again.

If I were you, I'd camp out on what Jesus said:

• Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’  Mark 13:35-37

Everyone views prophecy differently. however, all of us are exhorted to stay awake (walk in the light) and be alert.  Why?  Because if we prioritize that then the rest will take care of itself.

[Dennis1209]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am convinced that those who are in Christ and EXPECTING Him will hear the trumpet. I am not sure why you think 7 trumpets. I think it will be the long trumpet blast at the end of the Feast of Trumpets. Will we be caught up at the moment we hear the trumpet, or perhaps a second later? Who knows? Who cares? I too think the rapture is at the door.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I'm pretrib, no sense in trying to convince one another our view is the correct one; as I previously mentioned, we all have different hermeneutics and I understand them. I'm not sure about seven shofar blasts, it's just something I suspect based on Bible patterns. In the above verse, Paul is explaining the mystery of the Rapture. In the verse above it says 'at the last trump', therefore it stands to reason there were previous trumpets before the last one. Seven is the Biblical number for completeness and perfection.The number seven is used everywhere from the walls of Jericho [seven blasts and a shout] to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3. 

I also suspect the Rapture to occur on a Jewish feast / holiday. Based on the destruction of the Temple, slaughter and diaspora of 70 A.D., along with the tinkering and adjustments of the calendar, I also suspect their feast dates might not be the same. 

 

[JoeCanada]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The verses were so self explanatory, I thought that would be sufficient.  The rapture is the method God is going to use to get His bride safely off the planet before He begins His wrath. It is also harvest time, so we get resurrection bodies before we go up. He has spend 2000 years preparing homes for us, and He is coming to get His bride, and take us to the homes prepared.  We will wait out the time of wrath (the entire 70th week) in heaven with HIM. He will stay in heaven for the entire 70th week. Once the church is caught up, "so shall we ever be with the Lord.  The husband is going to stay with His bride forever more.  Remember, God has not and will not set any appointments for us with His wrath. 

iamlamad,

We will wait out the time of wrath (the entire 70th week) in heaven with HIM. He will stay in heaven for the entire 70th week.

From this statement, are you equating the entire 70th week as 7 years. I would assume so.

Can you provide a scripture that specifically states that God's Wrath lasts for 7 years? I cannot find any. 

What I have found in scripture points to a period of only 1 year. There are several:

Deut 24:5.....⁵ “When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken.

Isa 34:8....."For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion"

Isa: 61:2....."To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God"

Isa63:4......"For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come"

Also, when Jesus states that it will be "as in the days of Noah"........Noah was in the Ark for 1 year while God's wrath was being poured out.

So these 5 passages all point to a 1 year period when the Lord pours out His wrath. 5 witnesses!

 

 

 

 

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Gentle-Warrior,

May I answer that question?

It's taken from the Latin Vulgate [rapio], where we derive our English word Rapture. It's translated in the Greek as 'harpazo", meaning caught up, snatched up forcefully. The Greek word "harpazo" is in the King James (AV) five times [Acts 8:39, 2 Cor 12:2, 2 Cor 12:4, 1 Thes 4:17 and Rev 12:5. There are other words and allusions used to describe the Rapture and snatching away also. 

So the word 'Rapture' does appear in a translation of the Bible. 

1 Thes. 4:17 does not speak about the end of history, if that is what you are thinking about. We cannot have the end of history without first understanding that the old covenant had to officially end by the accompanying destruction of the Jewish temple which would "officially" usher the new and everlasting covenant that would never end. 

So, for Paul to speak about being "caught up in the clouds", was simply a form or speech or a Hebrew metaphor that spoke of the coming judgment of the harlot "Israel." 

It is then imperative to go back to the Lord Jesus and understand that He spoke quite often about the judgment of Israel. In Mat. 23:34-39, Jesus spoke about the judgment of Jerusalem while in verse 36, He indicated that the judgment would take place in their own generation.

In chapter 24, He begins to describe the end of the covenant by pointing to the temple where no stone would remain on top of one another (24:1-14). The end which He referred was the end of Israel as a covenant nation (v:14). Also, the Lord added in verse 34 that all that He has been speaking about would take place in their own generation (v:34). 

Paul picked up on this revelation when he added that the sufferings of the Thessalonians were coming to an end with the judgment of the harlot nation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NIV)

"For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews

¹⁵ who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone  

¹⁶ in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

A few years later, the Romans set up a siege against Jerusalem while 1.5 million Jews died in the hands of each other as the Roman army advanced to finish the task. The book of Revelation is the story of such events beginning in chapter 6 as it repeats the same story from different angles. 

Of course, most Christians have already believed a futuristic Hollywood style that reflects our lack of understanding of God's word. Their take makes no sense because it cannot be proven if we take things into the correct context. So, only those who have eyes to see will begin to understand that no book of the bible was written to us. We are not the direct recipients of God's word, but we can apply it to our lives as long as we take God's word within the context it was intended. 

Going back to 1Thes. 4:17, the idea of being "caught up" with the Lord in the air, pointed to the inclusion of the Thessalonian church in taking part of the judgment of the harlot Israel. After all, they had been victims of the abuse of the Jews alongside with their Jewish brethren in the Lord. 

If you want to question verse 16, the dead in Christ were those who had been slain for the sake of the gospel. They came with the Lord (invisibly) to see the end of the criminal generation of murderers. Paul died in A.D. 64, so he too was present in the spirit to rejoice over God's holy justice. 

After the destruction of the temple and the Jewish mob gone for good, the new covenant assured them to always be with the Lord, just as we too are (Ro. 8:35-39). 

This might be difficult to swallow, especially when we have already made up our minds what certain scriptures mean. We need to be alert to be open to the teachings of the Lord, not the teachings of men, e.g. the Millennium, the great tribulation, etc. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+destruction+of+jerusalem+in+ad+70&qpvt=the+destruction+of+jerusalem+in+ad+70&FORM=VDRE

 

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

iamlamad,

We will wait out the time of wrath (the entire 70th week) in heaven with HIM. He will stay in heaven for the entire 70th week.

From this statement, are you equating the entire 70th week as 7 years. I would assume so.

Can you provide a scripture that specifically states that God's Wrath lasts for 7 years? I cannot find any. 

What I have found in scripture points to a period of only 1 year. There are several:

Deut 24:5.....⁵ “When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken.

Isa 34:8....."For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion"

Isa: 61:2....."To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God"

Isa63:4......"For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come"

Also, when Jesus states that it will be "as in the days of Noah"........Noah was in the Ark for 1 year while God's wrath was being poured out.

So these 5 passages all point to a 1 year period when the Lord pours out His wrath. 5 witnesses!

Why would anyone look in the Old Testament for answers when the book of Revelation gives a very clear answer?  A hint to bible study, always form doctrine from New Testament scriptures if possible and fill in missing pieces from the Old Testament. Why? Because God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more and more. For prophecy, form doctrine from the most complete work on a subject - which usually is Revelation.

If you take Isa. 34:8 literally, His anger is only ONE DAY! It is not speaking of a 24 hour day.  Perhaps Isaiah was writing of the "Day of the Lord," which is an extended period of time also called the Day of His wrath.

In Revelation we see that He starts the DAy of His wrath at the 6th seal, the 70th week at the 7th seal, and then ends the week at the 7th vial. There is no verse anywhere that tells us He gets over being angry anywere in the middle of the week. Therefore, His anger goes for the entire week. That means every trumpet judgment comes with wrath, and every vial filled with His wrath. I remember we had this conversation before.

[JoeCanada]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why would anyone look in the Old Testament for answers when the book of Revelation gives a very clear answer?  A hint to bible study, always form doctrine from New Testament scriptures if possible and fill in missing pieces from the Old Testament. Why? Because God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more and more. For prophecy, form doctrine from the most complete work on a subject - which usually is Revelation.

If you take Isa. 34:8 literally, His anger is only ONE DAY! It is not speaking of a 24 hour day.  Perhaps Isaiah was writing of the "Day of the Lord," which is an extended period of time also called the Day of His wrath.

In Revelation we see that He starts the DAy of His wrath at the 6th seal, the 70th week at the 7th seal, and then ends the week at the 7th vial. There is no verse anywhere that tells us He gets over being angry anywere in the middle of the week. Therefore, His anger goes for the entire week. That means every trumpet judgment comes with wrath, and every vial filled with His wrath. I remember we had this conversation before.

iamlamad,

Why would anyone look in the Old Testament for answers ........And you call yourself a teacher and give this statement?

There are many similarities between Revelation and the Old Testament. In fact, Revelation alludes to 24 of the 39 Old Testament books. Study to shown yourself approved! By having a good knowledge of the Old Testament a person will have an easier time understanding the book of Revelation, especially Isaiah, Daniel and Zechariah

the book of Revelation gives a very clear answer?............ I'm still waiting for that "clear answer"

If you take Isa. 34:8 literally, His anger is only ONE DAY! It is not speaking of a 24 hour day.  Perhaps Isaiah was writing of the "Day of the Lord," which is an extended period of time also called the Day of His wrath.............. Yes, he was writing of the Day of the Lord. Yes, it is an extended period of time. Yes, it is also called the Day of His Wrath. They all begin in a "DAY"..... and, as Isaiah has shown not once but 3 times, the "DAY" runs for a "YEAR". The same as the Lord tells us regarding "As in the days of Noah"......the same as Deut tells us that a man stays home and looks after his bride for a year. Since Jesus was a Jew, He will hold to many Jewish customs. 

In Revelation we see that He starts the DAy of His wrath at the 6th seal.............. The "day" of His wrath is not initiated until the blowing of the first trumpet. The unbelievers run and hide in fear because they see the Lord coming and they know that His wrath follows. But it hasn't started yet. It's the day of Resurrection and Rapture for all the believers, then His wrath.

There is no verse anywhere that tells us He gets over being angry anywere in the middle of the week. Therefore, His anger goes for the entire week.........

Circular reasoning.........weak argument at best

every trumpet judgment comes with wrath, and every vial filled with His wrath............By golly, on this we agree

[Marilyn C]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 10:13 AM, iamlamad said:

 

Paul DOES give us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the Day of the Lord begins.

Hi iamlamad

I am somewhat in agreement with you there. Here is my reasoning from Scripture. Ephesians has the highest revelation concerning the Body of Christ, so I will go there.

`And He gave.....(ministries)...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect MAN, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the HEAD - Christ -

from whom the whole BODY, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share causes the growth of the BODY for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 16)

So we see that when the BODY of Christ has come to maturity then it is ready to be joined with its HEAD, Christ. Then the BODY will go to the third heaven to be part of the first restoration of rulership in all of God`s great kingdom. From Christ`s throne the Body of Christ will be ruling over the tribulation.

As this is the first purpose of God to be fulfilled then it will take place before the others, (Israel & the nations) are completed.

 

Marilyn.