Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks for answering. I think you are reading far more into that simple passage than the Author intended.

1 Do not let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.

2  In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3  And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4  And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

He had just told them He was leaving; I think after He finished, they understood He was going back to heaven - His Father's house. At first, I don't think they did understand. Peter asked Him where. I see no problem in understanding "My Father's house" as where God resides. I think the simplest understanding of this passage is best: one day (if the Lord tarried His coming) they would all go to where Jesus said He was going, and where Peter would later follow. It would be interesting to know if they knew when righteous people died then, they went down, not up. Did they know that after Jesus died and rose again they would go up? Did they know that Abraham's bosom would be emptied?  It is doubtful.

I believe when Jesus told them there were many dwelling places in heaven, they thought "homes." They thought Jesus would go back to heaven and make their homes in preparation for their arrival. I believe it we asked beginning readers to read this, that would be their understanding. 

Jesus said in verse 3, that He WILL come back again and take them to Himself.  The simple understanding is, He would then take them to the homes He prepared for them.

Where "am" Jesus when He comes to catch us up? He is in the air and in a cloud. How can we know what direction He will take from the air? Simple: where "am" Jesus all during the 70th week? He is in heaven.

Yes. The majority of Christianity believe more or less what you have alluded too. I also think that when a man hears my understanding for the first time, he won't accept it - not because my proofs are incorrect, but because he has heard the "heaven" version for so long and so many times.

Language is given by God to communicate ideas. It has rules to allow consistency and accuracy. If an Oxford MA in English would hear John 14 for the first time and he had been out of the touch of Christianity, he would never think that John 14 was about heaven. The Father's House is so well documented in the Bible, and it is never heaven. If you're not sure, try this. In every case where the Bible says "God's House", or "the House of the Lord" (Old Testament because God was not yet father by the rebirth), or "the Father's House", replace it with "heaven" and you'll soon be in chaos. Let's try one - Solomon in 1st Kings 8:27;

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this HEAVEN that I have builded?

The answer to the first question must then be NO for He dwells in heaven? And the next part would make the "heaven of heavens" (which God created) unable to hold God, but the heaven that Solomon builded would also not contain God. This rendering would make Solomon also a Creator of heaven. But if the pure Words are taken, all is clear. Neither the heaven of heavens that God created, NOR the House of Cedar and Gold that Solomon made (not created) in Jerusalem, can hold the Almighty.

Anyway brother, go well.

[Marilyn C]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

Since neither group believes that John 14 will take place at the rapture event, when will it take place? 

I am not looking for an argument, just input. Please include a reason for your belief.

Hi iamlamad,

The Lord is talking to the disciples there who have been promised to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28) And we find that fulfilled in the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 14) The NJ was built and made by God in heaven, (Heb. 11: 10,   12: 22). It comes down out of heaven from God and is over the earth. It is the connecting of the physical and spiritual realms in the NHNE.

The Body of Christ, however has been promised to rule with Christ from His seat of power and authority in the highest, (Rev. 3: 21) We do not need `homes` but will have a glorious body.

`For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.` (2 Cor. 5: 1 - 4)

 

[iamlamad]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:27 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

The Lord is talking to the disciples there who have been promised to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28) And we find that fulfilled in the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 14) The NJ was built and made by God in heaven, (Heb. 11: 10,   12: 22). It comes down out of heaven from God and is over the earth. It is the connecting of the physical and spiritual realms in the NHNE.

The Body of Christ, however has been promised to rule with Christ from His seat of power and authority in the highest, (Rev. 3: 21) We do not need `homes` but will have a glorious body.

`For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.` (2 Cor. 5: 1 - 4)

 

Thanks for answering. 

This is a theory; I just don't believe it.

The Holy City, New Jerusalem, will not come until after the great, white throne judgment - and that will not come until after the 1000 year reign. 

If the rapture is pretrib, and I believe it will be, WHERE will the church be for the 7 years?

Edited April 22, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:03 PM, AdHoc said:

Yes. The majority of Christianity believe more or less what you have alluded too. I also think that when a man hears my understanding for the first time, he won't accept it - not because my proofs are incorrect, but because he has heard the "heaven" version for so long and so many times.

Language is given by God to communicate ideas. It has rules to allow consistency and accuracy. If an Oxford MA in English would hear John 14 for the first time and he had been out of the touch of Christianity, he would never think that John 14 was about heaven. The Father's House is so well documented in the Bible, and it is never heaven. If you're not sure, try this. In every case where the Bible says "God's House", or "the House of the Lord" (Old Testament because God was not yet father by the rebirth), or "the Father's House", replace it with "heaven" and you'll soon be in chaos. Let's try one - Solomon in 1st Kings 8:27;

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this HEAVEN that I have builded?

The answer to the first question must then be NO for He dwells in heaven? And the next part would make the "heaven of heavens" (which God created) unable to hold God, but the heaven that Solomon builded would also not contain God. This rendering would make Solomon also a Creator of heaven. But if the pure Words are taken, all is clear. Neither the heaven of heavens that God created, NOR the House of Cedar and Gold that Solomon made (not created) in Jerusalem, can hold the Almighty.

Anyway brother, go well.

I have one question: WHERE is the Father now? WHERE is He "normally?"  (like the last 6000 years.)

[WilliamL]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Since neither group believes that John 14 will take place at the rapture event, when will it take place? 

Pardon me, but I am post-trib, pre-wrath, and I fully accept that John 14:2 foretells the rapture event. Nothing I read in it indicates any particular pre-/mid-/post-trib view.

[AdHoc]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I have one question: WHERE is the Father now? WHERE is He "normally?"  (like the last 6000 years.)

Good question. A reasonable answer is HEAVEN. Of course before He created the heavens in Genesis 1:1 He dwelt Nowhere for even a vacuum and space are something. Then He dwelt in His Heaven. But as glorious and splendid as it is, it is His THRONE, not His House. Then, in a burst of longing He reveals His heart to Isaiah  ....

66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

It would seem that man has made Him wait. Heaven is there for ruling, the earth a beautiful elevation for His feet so they don't dangle in a void. But His heart's desire is a House with many abodes ON EARTH. The heart of Jesus lived and beat only to do the Father's will, and He paid such a high price for a House, which was a Bride, which was "a gathering of called out ones" who should have displayed Him to the uttermost.

Sad. While His redeemed people search for a physical mansion in a physical heaven, God invests all for a House on the earth - "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house"  (1 Pet.2:4–5).

[WilliamL]

35 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But as glorious and splendid as it [heaven] is, it is His THRONE, not His House.

It is both. God's house = temple has had both earthly and heavenly locations. Revelation and Hebrews makes this abundantly clear in many passages:

Heb. 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Rev. 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

25 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

It is both. God's house = temple has had both earthly and heavenly locations. Revelation and Hebrews makes this abundantly clear in many passages:

Heb. 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Rev. 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

 

 

I see your point but the discussion stems from my first posting that the Father's House in John 14 is not heaven.

You've just confirmed that. One is called "Heaven" and one is the heavenly Tabernacle - two things. Heaven is NEVER called His House though He might dwell there. Maybe after reading my first posting we can get some consensus. You're sharp on grammar.

That there is a heaven, and that there is a Tabernacle there which became Moses' "pattern" for the earthly Tabernacle was never the dispute. There is earth and there is the Temple at Jerusalem. Only one is His House.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks for answering. 

This is a theory; I just don't believe it.

The Holy City, New Jerusalem, will not come until after the great, white throne judgment - and that will not come until after the 1000 year reign. 

If the rapture is pretrib, and I believe it will be, WHERE will the church be for the 7 years?

Hi iamlamad,

You must have misunderstood me for I also believe that the NJ comes after the GWT, which is after the thousand years reign.

And yes, I believe in the pre-rapture, so we are all good there bro.

The church, the Body of Christ will be `on the throne` with Christ is the highest realm. We will be judging the world system and fallen angels through the trib, (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) and ruling over the nations with a `rod of iron,` also from the Lord`s seat of power and authority `far above all, in this age and the one to come.` (Eph. 1: 21 & 22)

 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Pardon me, but I am post-trib, pre-wrath, and I fully accept that John 14:2 foretells the rapture event. Nothing I read in it indicates any particular pre-/mid-/post-trib view.

It certainly cannot be all three! It MUST therefore take place in one of the three.