Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hi Marilyn, I am glad you were not offended with my comment..

Which was an inquiring comment...and a legitimate one.

I read your first paragraph and your reference to Hebrews 12:22 American Standard Version
but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels. It is very interesting what we read in Hebrews by someone who has not read the book of revelations...

But what is written in Hebrews 12:22 is not reflecting the comments made in your first paragraph...

it is interesting that the Hebrews has distance himself from the earthly mount Zion and the worship in the Temple.

The author correctly understood that the sanctity from the earthly mount Zion and the Temple was gone, and he correctly points that the sanctity of thePriesthood is also gone, and everything they were doing before it has become common.

He is pointing to the Heavenly Jerusalem and is indicating that we are there in the Heavenly Jerusalem offering our worship before God and in the presence of the Holy Angels..and recognizing the Royal Priesthood in the name of Jesus...

That our worship in the Heavenly is accepted because of Jesus Christ. 

But we are not in Heaven and we are on earth and that it could mean that the things that are happening in the Heavenly Jerusalem are happening because the Heavenly Jerusalem has come to be here with us...in a Spiritual realm and not in the phycical realm. 

Or as we are here on earth spiritually we are in the Heavenly worshiping in Heavenly mount Zion and in the Heavenly Tabernacle of God..

 

Hi Ycf,

I don`t think you would intentionally offend anyone. Now I see what you are saying regarding Heb. 12: 22, however if we look at Ps. 2: 6 we see that the Father has set His Son as King on Mount Zion. And that we know is in the angelic realm. (Heb. 12: 22) Thus Mount Zion in heaven is the ruling area. Remember on earth that was where King David ruled from.

You might like to comment on that point.

Marilyn.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

26 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ycf,

I don`t think you would intentionally offend anyone. Now I see what you are saying regarding Heb. 12: 22, however if we look at Ps. 2: 6 we see that the Father has set His Son as King on Mount Zion. And that we know is in the angelic realm. (Heb. 12: 22) Thus Mount Zion in heaven is the ruling area. Remember on earth that was where King David ruled from.

You might like to comment on that point.

Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn,

Mount Zion, is the Holy Mountain of God, it is a spiritual mountain. As the Holy Mountain of God sits atop of all the other mountains...or high above all the other mountains..I have read this some place, it has remained in my mind ever since..

We understand that Jesus is ruling from Heaven but he is not ruling Heaven and that's what he does. No that's is not correct. Jesus is ruling on the earth and that it should not be a problem to understand, rather the arguments are about how he rules hear on earth...

We should understand that he rules on the spiritual realm in matters where he is involved...He is not controlling everything that is happening in the world...

There is also the Devil on this earth and there are the people who do not want Jesus...and they are the people who want Jesus to be their Lord and their King and have asked him to be involved in their lives and the lives of people they pray for...

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

Hi Marylin, we have a lot of examples from the disciples of Jesus and their experiences and from Paul and it is not necessary to resort to our own experiences and we can do that also if it is needed...with caution because people usually see those experiences from their point of view and give them in a hurry their own interpretation. 

We will look at an example of how Jesus announce him self to a certain territory that it was under the control of some spiritual powers in the earlier times in Gentiles Nations during Paul's ministry.

Paul was shown in a vision that a Macedonian man was calling him...meaning he was ready to hear the Gospel, (bear with me in this one) or he long for what the Gospel had to offered without him having never heard the good news of the message of the Gospel...

And how is that possible someone may asked? 

It was because the Holy Spirit knew his peculiar situation and had fed his thinking or guided him to think in a very circumstantial way within his knowledge of spiritual matters as it what happened to people after their death.. 

The Job of this man was to be the warden of the prison in Philippi...As the Warden he was looking at his prisoners being subjected to him and somehow he could not help it thinking that one day when the time comes he himself will be the prisoner of the Warden of the underworld. 

 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello @WilliamL, I will repeat what I posted earlier on a few words. 

Jesus opened the way to Heaven, Jesus called himself self the door to Heaven. 

No one went to Heaven before the death and resurrection of Jesus. 

For more clarity no one went to Heaven after he died before Jesus. Jesus is the first one..

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

Sorry, brother, but you have been given some mistaken information. First of all, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") never called Himself "the door to Heaven"; He just called Himself the "door." And, when you look at the context, it's not even a "door" as we would understand a "door":

John 10:7-10 (KJV)

7 Then said Jesus unto them again,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

He was saying that He was the GATE of the sheep pen! The sheep are protected within the pen (usually built in the Middle East with rocks piled up for walls), because the shepherd GUARDS the gate! In fact, if they weren't able to make a gate for this pen, the shepherd HIMSELF would be the "gate," on watch in front of the opening to the pen! After all, on warm nights, the shepherds would sleep with their flocks.

In his book, Manners and Customs of Bible Lands, Fred H. Wight said,

"More permanent sheepfolds. Such shelters are usually built by the shepherd in a valley, or else on the sunny side of a hill where there is protection from cold winds. This fold is a low building with arches in front of it, and a wall forming an outdoor enclosure, joining the building. When the weather is mild, the sheep and goats are allowed to be in the enclosure during the night, but if the weather is stormy, or the evenings are cold, then the flock is shut up in the interior part of the fold, with its protection of roof and walls. The walls of the enclosure are about three feet wide at the bottom, and become narrower at the top. They are from four to six feet high. Large stones are used in constructing the outsides of the wall, and they are also placed on the top, and then the center is filled with smaller pieces of stone, of which there is much in the land. Sharp, thorn bushes are put on the top of this wall to protect the sheep from wild animals or robbers. There is a gate guarded by a watchman.

"Jesus made reference to the familiar sheepfold of Palestine when He spoke those memorable words of His: 'He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter [watchman] openeth.' (John 10:1-3)."

This is what Yeeshuwa` meant, not some "door to Heaven!"

As far as "going to Heaven" is concerned, you said, "No one went to Heaven before the death and resurrection of Jesus." I'll do you one better: "No one went to Heaven AFTER the resurrection of Jesus, either!"

Consider Kefa's (Peter's) words on Shavu'owt (Pentecost):

Acts 2:22-36 (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before[hand] spake of the resurrection of Christ, that 'his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.' 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.'

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

So, we are 50 days past the Passover when Yeeshuwa` died, long after His resurrection, and we are told by Peter that "David is not ascended into the heavens!"

Hmmmmm...

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus said that he was raised from the place of the dead..

That's where the people went after they died, they were gathered in Hades, a place in the earth. 

No, sir. "Hades," as "a place in the earth" "where the people went after they died," is the Greek MYTHOLOGICAL "Hades!"

The Greek word "hadees" does NOT have to refer to the Greek myth! In fact, I would hardly expect Yeeshuwa` to use a Greek myth to describe the truth! They were in Judea the Land of the Jews, the children of Judah, one of the twelve sons of Israel, who had the TRUE God, and their history was no mere myth!

Instead, the Greek words in Luke 16:23 (used by the TRANSLATOR into Greek) were ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ "in the hadees" and it means "in the UNSEEN."

86 hadees (hades) ᾍδης, ου, ὁ (hah'-dace). From a (as negative particle) and eidoo; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:
-- grave, hell.

It is a word that simply means "the grave."

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

No one ever has remained in his dead body after his physical body died...and this is impossible to happened in the first place...

One does not "inhabit a body"; one "IS a body!" The body - YOU - wears out, dies, and decays. That is the horror of the original curse!

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat ofit all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Then, in Genesis 5, we read:

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What happened to Jesus to be raised from the place of the dead and returned back to his body which was still preserved and decay had not set in yet...it will never happen to anyone of us..

To everyone of us our bodies if they are not burnt or eaten by the beasts...turn in many pieces, which usually under normal circumstances are buried and decay...

What happened to Yeeshuwa` happens to us all. He died, and He was buried. So, shall we die, if the Lord tarries! And, we, too, shall be buried and decay.

BUT, if we are among those who know that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God, have made Him our sacrifice for sin, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, we too shall be raised from the dead to newness of life! (Romans 6:4-11)

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Never wish to have your earthly body back because this is not in the creatures. 

This is so mixed up, that it's DEATH to the Christian life! You will HAVE your earthly body back and TRANSFORMED! This is EXTREMELY important for us to understand!

Back to 1 Corinthians 15, the Resurrection Chapter:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The [first] man [Adam] was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED! 

53 For THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, 
AND THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. 

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory!" (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14)

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

I can't stress this hard enough!

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

God will provide anything that he needs to provide for us after our separation from our earthly bodies at the time of our death. He has taken care of everything himself...he will provide what he needs to provide for us..

One thing is certain that he will make us look beautiful because he has to be around us forever...

Cute. God REMEMBERS every one of us who were dear to Him! We are not "separated from our earthly bodies" at the time of our death; we ARE our earthly bodies, and WE DIE, JUST AS ADAM DID! And, just as the Second Adam was raised to new life, so we too, as dead bodies, will be raised to life! That's what a RESURRECTION IS!

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ycf,

I don`t think you would intentionally offend anyone. Now I see what you are saying regarding Heb. 12: 22, however if we look at Ps. 2: 6 we see that the Father has set His Son as King on Mount Zion. And that we know is in the angelic realm. (Heb. 12: 22) Thus Mount Zion in heaven is the ruling area. Remember on earth that was where King David ruled from.

You might like to comment on that point.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn C.

No, ma'am. Har Tsiyown ("Mount Zion") is the mountain upon which the Old City of Jerusalem sits today!!!

It is where Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") will rule from, just as His ancestor David did! "Mount Zion" is not "in the angelic realm," nor is it "in heaven" nor is it "the ruling area (of heaven)!"

You're of so "heavenly-minded", that you have no "earthly, common sense!"

I'll end this with the Davidic Covenant. READ IT! Yeeshuwa` shall FULFILL IT!

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains."

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'" 

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

[Your closest friendnt]

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

Sorry, brother, but you have been given some mistaken information. First of all, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") never called Himself "the door to Heaven"; He just called Himself the "door." And, when you look at the context, it's not even a "door" as we would understand a "door":

John 10:7-10 (KJV)

7 Then said Jesus unto them again,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

He was saying that He was the GATE of the sheep pen! The sheep are protected within the pen (usually built in the Middle East with rocks piled up for walls), because the shepherd GUARDS the gate! In fact, if they weren't able to make a gate for this pen, the shepherd HIMSELF would be the "gate," on watch in front of the opening to the pen! After all, on warm nights, the shepherds would sleep with their flocks.

In his book, Manners and Customs of Bible Lands, Fred H. Wight said,

"More permanent sheepfolds. Such shelters are usually built by the shepherd in a valley, or else on the sunny side of a hill where there is protection from cold winds. This fold is a low building with arches in front of it, and a wall forming an outdoor enclosure, joining the building. When the weather is mild, the sheep and goats are allowed to be in the enclosure during the night, but if the weather is stormy, or the evenings are cold, then the flock is shut up in the interior part of the fold, with its protection of roof and walls. The walls of the enclosure are about three feet wide at the bottom, and become narrower at the top. They are from four to six feet high. Large stones are used in constructing the outsides of the wall, and they are also placed on the top, and then the center is filled with smaller pieces of stone, of which there is much in the land. Sharp, thorn bushes are put on the top of this wall to protect the sheep from wild animals or robbers. There is a gate guarded by a watchman.

"Jesus made reference to the familiar sheepfold of Palestine when He spoke those memorable words of His: 'He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter [watchman] openeth.' (John 

If you try not to distort what I post and stop manufacturing arguments perhaps we can communicate. 

And pointing the finger like you are the Ultimate Judge..take a look how you are addressing me, and the way you are addressing others and the words you are using...and you never asked a question for clarification that's why you do not know your misquoting me...and what I post. It has nothing to do with what you posted Jesus said: 

" I am the way and the truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father but only through me".

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

@Retrobyter

Shalom Retrobyter, do you know that you are misquoting my posting? 

And you credit to me things I never said, as my own? 

I like to respond to you, but how can that be done... by loosing focus and start arguing with you, as to why you say this and that and I did not say that and this is what I said....and so on...no is not done this way...I can still knock down your arguments because you post with a doubt...most of the time you post that you don't like the words the scriptures are using and you want to substitute them for other words which are used in different contexts...you are posting with uncertainty and with doubt, because if you did not change the original worlds that are in scriptures your arguments cannot stand, they failed...because you used as a foundation other words than the words used in scripture...

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[WilliamL]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:13 PM, DeighAnn said:

THE DEAD are resurrected and THE DEAD don't stand in judgment for a thousand years. 

You seem to miss that there will be a judgment at the Parousia of Christ, and another judgment at the end of the Millennium.

Just as there were a number of previous judgments, such as at the Flood and the Exodus, so will there be more that one future judgment. And just as there has been/will be more that one resurrection from the dead.

[WilliamL]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:43 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

When Jesus died was a day that no work was allowed to be done...as it was a religious Holiday

Incorrect. Jesus died on the day of the preparation of the Passover, which was the day before the religious holiday, which began in the evening.

[WilliamL]

On 11/3/2022 at 6:38 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

Never wish to have your earthly body back because this is not in the scriptures. 

Job 19:25 “Yet as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last, He will take His stand on the earth.

26 “Even after my skin is destroyed [lit., stricken off],
Yet from my flesh I will see God."

Men who are alive at the Parousia of Christ will have their physical bodies changed/quickened into immaterial bodies. Just as took place as the resurrection of Jesus.

Men who are dead at the Parousia of Christ will be raised into their restored physical bodies, which then, for the righteous, will be changed/quickened into immaterial bodies.

All of those resurrected will later be able to resume physical forms upon the earth. Just like Jesus did. Whether they choose to or not is another question, however.

The unrighteous resurrected dead will have a very hard time:

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Edited November 7, 2022 by WilliamL