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Jordon side of the Jordan River, just north of the Dead Sea. They believe "that a meteorite exploded in the air above what is now the Middle Ghor plain," which caused the rain of fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Interesting tidbit - "The scientists theorize that the shock wave from the meteor blast spread a layer of salt from the nearby Dead Sea throughout the area, making the land agriculturally useless for centuries." Perhaps this is how/why Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt? She didn't just turn around, but actually went back and subsequently got hit with the blast of salt, covering and killing her? https://worldisraelnews.com/archaeologists-say-they-located-biblical-city-of-sodom/?fbclid=IwAR1AesOcIQdv7RgF8AmF_tsP42NxoPHybDf8fwtrZ_vBuhTlmeMlHOmmlIQ

This is the gospel by which we are saved. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 15 We are all sinners who can not save ourselves. Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice. He was buried. He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life. All we have to do is believe the gospel. Believing is being persuaded that something is true. The moment you believe you have eternal life. Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection. 　

Do you believe in free will? If so, is there any indication in scripture that it is taken away?

I believe it is, if people can set emotion aside and simply discuss the relevant scripture. In my opinion, the best place to start is the matter of whether one can walk away from God or not. I think we all can agree that God will not walk away from us, and as support for this we simply look to what Jesus said on the subject, I will never leave you nor forsake you. So that begs the question, can a person walk away from Him? This is really the heart of the debate that needs to be addressed, scripturally. God bless

Hi, please don't be offended, but for myself, if my pastor (meaning the spiritual leader of the church) abused a child I would leave that church immediately! So in humility and with respect may I ask, why would/do you stay there? Lord bless

Thank you for your response, after the incident in question I stopped drinking heavily. I have now been completely alcohol free for 5 months. After becoming pregnant I did feel attacked by guilt for a variety of things that happened in the past, even things that I knew I had resolved and been fully forgiven for. It was such a miracle becoming pregnant with this baby as we were told to get a sperm donor, I have been feeling spiritually attacked by guilt. Last night I spoke with my husband about a few things I was feeling guilty about including the incident with his brother. I also apologised for not listening to him as I should have. He said he has moved past it and that he thinks I learnt my lesson. I didn't tell him about how it made me feel as I knew that would kill him, however I did discuss struggling with lustful thoughts because of the media etc. He said he struggles with that as well and we talked about how we can try our best to have clean thought patterns. I am going to read my bible and pray about this also.

Good responces people ? Yes there is only One Gospel, One Way to eternal salvation..

I tend to think, that Eden was a real place on the pre-flood earth, it is even said to be in a certain location, the detail seem awfully specific to just be a tale like Aesop's Fables: 10Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers.11The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. 14The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. I think "one of us" in that they now knew the difference between good and evil, they become morally aware, and with that condemned for going against God's will in any number of way, not like innocent children. As far as who the one's are, I would suspect that would be the three persons of God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of whom participated in the creation. and . . . Welcome to Worthy!

As a Catholic I am offended by the coverage of abuse only by the Catholic Church. Abuse is rampant in other churches https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article222576430.html

My mom disobeyed God and married my dad and I seem to have got all of their negative character traits, as the oldest child(2 younger siblings who turned out fine and normal), severe mental disorder to the point where I am completely unable to work now, I am dependent on my mom who I am angry at and have a very hard time forgiving, I have been doing meds and therapy my whole life with nothing ever working or curing me, been severely depressed and hopeless and confused my whole life. I turned away from christianity partly due to the way my parents treated me and how much emotional abuse I suffered with both of them being christians yet i was traumatized by their behavior especially my dad's growing up. it didn't make sense to me. my parents both have mental disorders but are functional enough to work and be somewhat "normal". I'm not, my whole life has been really really miserable and I finally became a true christian and gave my life to Jesus on October 23rd of this year(I am 24), after coming out of the new age movement due to demonic experiences that Jesus saved me from, and finally understand christianity and the holy spirit in a way I didn't growing up christian(and then leaving my faith due to being confused and feeling abandoned by God or that God couldn't exist due to my mental disorder that no one understood or could tell me what was going on, I'm now diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, bipolar II, depression and anxiety) I have been lead by the Holy Spirit to find a christian therapy that I think will cure a lot of my issues, it is a deliverance based therapy and deals with dissociation and alternate personalities and demons(which I have all of, and both of my parents do too although my dad has more of it and is more likely to get this therapy after I do if it is successful, my mom seems unable to recognize anything wrong with herself and has a lot of pride) I think I am more angry at my mom than my dad, because of her pride, my dad is more damaged and messed up and caused more damage to me, but at least he is humble now and we have been emailing each other and working on fixing our relationship. I can't live with my dad, I live with my mom and am dependent on her right now because I'm barely surviving with the constant anxiety and depression and exhaustion from fighting wars in my mind non-stop my whole life. and I have a glimmer of hope with this therapy coming up, and my relationship with God and Jesus getting stronger every day. but I'm stuck on trying to forgive and not be angry, and I know how important it is. I am praying about it and would appreciate any advice, I really like this community and reading the testimonies is one of my favorite things to do on this site oh, and one more question I have, how do you honor your parents when they are also Christian but try to instruct you to do things that you believe God DOESN'T want you to be doing, but they have different christian beliefs than you? and interpret the bible slightly differently, like all christians do because we all have different personalities and God has different roles for all of us in the body of Christ and different plans for all of us, and speaks to us through the Bible in different ways. so for example, my mom will see a bible verse and it will prove to her that she is right about something, but I will have a completely different opinion based on other bible verses, and I tend to be better at being less selective of single bits of text and looking at the bigger picture context of the scripture than she does in my opinion(trying to be humble)

I like the fact that they point out atheism has no way to provide meaning to suffering. You suffer then you die, end of story. But the Christian suffers, dies, and then RULES AND REIGNS WITH CHRISTMFOR ETERNITY. CHRIST WHO IS OUR SUFFERING SERVANT WHO CAME TO MODEL GOD's servant heart! on a different note I would avoid the response, "We just don't know that God doesn't have a morally sufficient reason." This approach often gets boiled down to, "It a mystery and we just have to trust God." It is not the correct rhetorical strategy to brush someone off this way. I would piont out that there are many circumstances where we put our children in temporary pain (braces, medical procedures that ultimately heal the child, sacrificing soldiers to suffer in war to prevent greater suffering by weaker members of society). So it is not clear that we don't make choices to increase suffering for a while only to get a better result down the road. If we being fallible do this regularly, why would God, having all knowledge about what causes will lead to what effects in the future, not be able to bring good out of evil and suffering the way we do when we bring our kid to the emergency room to have them set a broken arm in our 3-year old. He doesn't understand why we are putting him or her in greater pain, he or she is 3! I argue that this is analogous to God's allowing evil and suffering.

"Logical problem of evil is no longer argued by philosophers. The reason is that God could have morally compelling reasons to allow evil." One of those is God's desire for humans to love and worship him. only free creatures can worship and love. It it may not be feasible for God to create a world where mankind all freely chooses to love and obey. Remember God can't force someone to freely do something more than he can make a square circle or create a married bachelor. For more on the free will defense see Alvin Plantinga. Also see William Lane Craig's animated video here:

This reminds me of what I say to people that are afraid they have committed the unpardonable sin (and it hints at what I think it is) - If you are afraid you have committed it, then you haven't.

Yes, this world is getting darker at evil by the hour... but thank God , He will have the last say Maranatha ,Jesus come come soon..

That is why there is a reformation process Paul describes as "Being perfected in the twinkling of an eye." Further in 1 Cor 3:12-15 we see Christians who live like non-Christians "laying up evil works wood, hay, and stubble," that will burn up in the judgement. Those people will "suffer loss, but not loss of salvation." So firstly, your view is knocked down (that is a philosophical phrase for shown to be untenable or completely false), by Paul. Secondly, to avoid these types of theological missteps analogies from what we would do as limited, fallible creatures, being analogous to what an infinitely good, all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect eternal God would do seem self-evidently (for most anyways) false! Galatians 3 dealt with the saved by grace and perfected by works theology. "Foolish, ignorant, bewitched," are not superlatives! I would engage further but I have to go serve food at a shelter to "Unrepentant, homeless, smelly drug-addicts who are mostly beggars and thieves." Now come-on your not really a Christian are you? You are posing as a straw man Christian the media represents as Christian, right? You know the ones, Westboro Baptists, who have never read any of the NT but claim to represent Jesus. Or the guys like Brother Judd or Sister Cindy who travel around the country telling college students they are going to hell because they are whores and whoremongers.

There is a reason this debate has not changed for hundreds of years, and we are seeing it displayed in this thread just as we have in all the other threads on the subject. No one is going to get banned though, possibly removed from the thread, but fear not! Another one will arise from the ashes and we will start over again with the same result! The question is why the result will be the same, and the answer is not all that complicated. One side of the argument reverts to the accusation that if not OSAS, then the individual must be of the mindset they save themselves, nullifying the work of Christ. The other side, will revert to the accusation that if OSAS, then you promote willful sinning with unabashed shame. Of course in either case, there are never any statements made to support either claim, so round and round we go. Cheese is nice if you have some crackers to go with it, but a bag of popcorn also goes hand in hand with a good show. God bless

SCOTT , you far more right than you realize . The easy way to say it is , THAT HE WILL BE ALL INCLUSIVE , accepting all paths type. WELL , all except for those who say JESUSIS the only way and warn folks to repent . He will exalt humanity above all religons . He will . he will point to humanity as being gods , all religions serve the same god and that humanity must be FIRST above all. And the spirit of anti christs , working through many of darkness, IS ALREADY GETTING the minds of many READY FOR THIS ALL

I use the Peter vs Judas example a lot. They both abandoned Christ. The life saving difference is not about what they did. It is about their response to what they did. Judas was overehelmed with guilt and apparently did not repent. Peter was convicted and he repented. If Judas had repented I would expect to see him in eternity. I've said for a long time that all human beings have the same lifespan, and we even have a word for it: "Today". Today I am forgiven. Today I am saved. Today I need the blood of Christ. And I can go forward with confidence knowing I am his and that though everything is permissible, not everything is profitable. Sure, I disobey "dad" from time to time, and it pains me that I do. I completely sympathize with Paul when he said he does the things he does not want to, and doesn't do the things he should. And like him, I am very thankful that Jesus saved me from this wretched body in which I was placed - by him.

This seems like a human problem, not a Catholic problem per se. Why do you think that reporters don't report other conspiracies to cover-up pastoral abuse? Finally, the report suggested a Law association that had helped a dozen churches since 1969. Only one case of abuse cover-up is highlighted in the 8-month investigation. One data point is not a line, two data points are not a trend, so the article seems to be very big on method of cover-up and small on actual examples. i have been falsely accused of harassment in a work situation. I was received no less than 4 calls by individuals who had been falsely accused by the same person. I engaged a lawyer and informed my boss that HR would have to provide a bridge number for my lawyer, as the accuser was known to the company to falsely accuse men of sexual harassment and I was going to name the previous HR individuals who had hid the false abuse claims, and my boss who had his the claims as well, and the company in a defamation law suit. The false claims were dropped immediately. Point is that I am quick to advise pastors to have a plan to handle false abuse claims. Further many scammers find churches to be easy marks for insurance fraud scammers claiming abuse. One former acquantence was lured into counseling a woman (after twice referring her to the pastoral staff). The woman made unwanted advances during counseling. When the pastor shared this info with me I advised he run not walk away. He didn't. Months later he committed adultury. Within one week of the event he was named along with the church in a $1 million law suit by the couple. They settlement was for low six-figures. Imagine his surprise when the lawyer informed him that he was the fourth pastor in 10 years that this couple had sued. I'm am distrustful of most of the media these days. But they are secular and wouldn't seem to have a dog in the hunt shaming Catholics but somehow protecting non-Catholics. Help me understand why they would under-report these incidents?

I don't understand the reasoning of attacking someone who raises the issue that some abuse goes unreported if it is associated with other denominations.

The Miracle In The Bible And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. Mark 16:6 Shows That Shroud Of Turin And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. John 11:43-44 To Be A "One" Piece Fraudulent Wrap~! And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7 ~ Love, Your Brother Joe

I have been reading some of this thread tonight, and it occurred to me that a large portion of this exchange is either a big misunderstanding, or simply a desire to argue in circles. I am going to show you what I mean just by comparing a couple of posts from opposing views. For starters, this excerpt from discipler, but specifically let's focus on one particular segment. Now, if I am understanding correctly, discipler is specifically stating that good fruits/ works, come from the Spirit, as in, the Holy Spirit. I think we all agree that the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, or trinity, which means what discipler is saying is that good fruits/ works comes from God, not from himself. I can go back further to another one of disciplers posts as well, in which a passage was posted regarding abiding in Christ / Christ abiding in the individual. This too should be understood as a reference to the Holy Spirit, as this is how Christ abides in us in our present mortal bodies. Anyway, that is two examples of where I see discipler saying that whatever good is done, is done by the Holy Spirit/ God through him. Now this excerpt from blood bought, let's focus on just the opening statement. God working through him, from the inside out. Now that sounds an awful lot to me like what you are saying is, any good fruit/ works from you comes as a result of the Holy Spirit/ God. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that exactly what discipler said? Once all the uncalled for rhetoric is washed away, you believe the same thing in this regard. So would it be safe to say, that fruit/ work that comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be called a "dead work" as you suggested? Once you two get past the misunderstanding regarding the fruit/ work, maybe you can find a civil way to discuss some of the scripture. If you continue to argue about something you agree on, I am not sure what the point of the conversation is. Just my two cents worth. God bless

The Lord's just a prayer away God puts all our tears in a bottle He values the way that we feel He never discounts pain or heartache Though others deny it is real When human compassion is lacking When others just don't understand When feeling alone and forsaken And life's not the way that we planned It may seem so hopeless and futile But God is still there through it all His ways are mysterious (beyond us) Yet He hears every time that we call Though our trials may oft overwhelm us And it's hard to get by day to day His sweet comfort is there for our asking The Lord's just a prayer away

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Know them by their fruit. Heb 3:12-14 (12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I'm not really surprised, I don't expect the murder of the innocent will be stopped until Jesus returns on the clouds.

Just so you know ... this case should have been heard at least! Only 4 Justices were needed ... we couldn't even get a hearing! Surreal!

Well, if God was a rapist He would be a sinner, but God is love and He loves us all the way to redemption, Eph 1:13-14.

The only way to appear before the judgement seat is to be dead...or after Christs return. The Bible says to worry about the log in your own eye before the splinter in someone elses. Does the Catholic church receive unfair media coverage of the abuse? Perhaps. Do other churches have issues with abuse? Most certainly. But pointing fingers wont change anything, you cant change what others do. But you can change what you do and what your own church does. And thats what you should focus on.

Well I don't know of any born again believers working for their salvation, do you?

Yowm. It don't matter what pope francis would call ya , You KNOW I LOVES YA .

No, they refute works salvation, wonderful works, work iniquity........

To claim salvation and to partake of all the benefits of it does not mean they were saved. Gal 4:6,7 - Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, the Spirit who calls out Abba Father, So you are no longer a slave, but a son, God has made you also an heir. God knows the heart of man; to claim salvation and to obtain salvation are two different things. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve and followed Jesus throughout His Ministry. He also partook in the benefits of the 12. He saw healing, the rising of the dead and other miracles, yet he was of the Devil. The same with some today proclaiming to be Christians. They Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk, Yet Christ never knew them. In Christ Montana Marv

Are we friends and enemies of God? Jhn 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Heb 10:29 (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace? I know of people who have done this. They once claimed salvation in Christ and partook of all the benefits of it here, but turned back as it were and forsook Christ, refusing to believe what they once believed, recanting what they once preached, and are now stubbornly refusing to hear the Word of God they once heard by which faith once came to them. In each case God knew this would happen, so didn't sign off on their salvation as it were.

We will if we are abiding in Christ, having drawn near to Him with true hearts in full assurance of faith, not wavering. But our acts of mercy cannot add anything to Christ's sufficient sacrifice on the Cross to pay the penalty for our sin, in earnest I hope you will agree, john1. If Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to pay the penalty for our sin He wouldn't be sitting at the right hand of God. Heb 10:12-18 (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Right, parables and allegories describe our daily walk of sanctification in Christ. Believers don't lose salvation, they are sanctified, disciplined, anointed and receive godly sorrow. If you're not sure you have eternal life now, then the time is now to accept Christ. Time is short, these are the end times.

Mat 13:10-11 (10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. On the subject of mysteries and their being revealed by God, douge, it's not that they are difficult, complicated, or incomprehensible, but rather that they are concealed until the appropriate recipients have drawn near to the source of their revealing and are of a disposition to respond to them. We often come across the phrase, "What is in the OT concealed is in the NT revealed." The words mystery or mysteries do not appear in the OT, but are used 22 times as singular and 5 times as plural in the NT. 1Co 4:1-2 (1) Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. (2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

SURE LINES UP WITH WHAT JESUS SAID . IF a man continues not In ME , he is cast out .

Being the cynical person that I am, I've always found the story shroud to be dubious. I have always been very skeptical of the shroud. Here's why. The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human. (Isaiah 52:14) The Suffering Servant The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out. Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas. The Bible says that Jesus' head and body were wrapped separately and that "linen cloths" were used. This means strips of cloth and not a shroud. [John 20] There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who don't believe the shroud is genuine, they need no more evidence/discussion.

I'm sorry, but where is the difference? Where did Peter specify an earthly kingdom? He said that Christ was "exalted to the right hand of God." (Acts 2:33) And according to Paul, Christ "is seated at God's right hand in the heavenly realms."(Ephesians 1:20) And Peter agrees: "Christ Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness." (I Peter 2:24) Also, "Christ suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." (I Peter 3:18) There is indeed only one gospel.

It's my understanding, little though there may be, the items inside the Ark represent God himself. The Law, the Staff and the Manna are His character, sovereignty, and provision. I may be way off but that's my personal view.

There is nothing we can do to be saved. Nothing. No works will save. Yes, you trust Jesus Christ alone for eternal life. The Bible says so over and over. Once you ARE saved, mercy should flow as evidence of salvation. So should love, joy, peace...... These things do not and cannot save. Period. But they should be part of our Christian walk.

No, there is no difference between the gospel of Peter and Paul. There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. Why did you skip the verses in Peter's sermon that told how to be saved? "Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved." "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” His comment about Christ being raised to sit on throne was helping those orthodox Jews who had Jesus killed to finally understand the truth. God had promised King David that one would sit on the throne one day and rule forever. This was the Messiah being foretold. They were looking for him. And now they know it was Jesus - whom they killed. Jesus both died for our sins to saved us and he will rule and reign forever. Both. Not either/or. Not two gospels. One gospel.

1 John chapter 2 verse 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. James chapter 2 verse 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. I don't think you can trust in Jesus alone for eternal life, because he died for everyone's sins, you also have to show mercy just as he showed you. Matthew chapter 18 verse 27, 28 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

Is this what you want? Revelation chapter 21 verse 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

The delivering of the substance of faith in His Person by The Holy Spirit... to offer transformation of Life to all who come to Jesus- so that those who do are enabled to separate themselves from that which passes away and be held to that which does not- God and His Word...