Pre trib rapture is fake

[SINNERSAVED]

12 minutes ago, Davida said:

 These are just my general observations of the fruit of the collective believers world wide as we are all human and flawed at best,  all of us ourselves at sometime can reflect the whole spectrum from the highest and lowest of whole human family. I have never seen any person constantly bear Christian fruit.   Neither do I trust many to recognize the same fruit since people are sinners and most are mostly mentally & emotionally dysfunctional and at different levels of spiritual maturity and growth within the Body of Christ.  In my experience, ,too often the ones that gush loudest about showing Christ's love are often found at times, to be severely lacking applying their own scrutinizing to self-reflection and also lacking at times in the sweetest most valuable fruit themselves when the rubber hits the road.  So, therefore, before I would start making public displays that I " pray for people's hearts etc......" of those that I disagree with,  I'd count to 100 and ask God if that is His will for me to do or if it is from my carnal mind.

 

you are holding  to your self ,the same as you are speaking of others, and this comes from deep with in,

 blessings to you Sister, and I pray that the lord is giving you grace and understanding to know wisdom, that we are all falling short, but we can love one another in the spirit of true love , and compassion of understanding that we are to love and not hate, for hate has no part where there is love, and forgiveness is given from Him that has forgiven, so by the same measure we are given we need to give

 peace to you , and we are all Gods people, there is no division, for a house divided cannot stand, and this is where the rubber hits the road, shalom...

[simplejeff]

...

1 hour ago, Davida said:

I have never seen any person constantly bear Christian fruit. 

Most people never do.   ((Yet, as Yahweh says, seek Yahweh and keep on seeking Him, and you will find Him))..

As humans say,  most doctors don't cure many people, only treat them and charge them.

Ezekiel 18-21 But if the wicked turn away from all the sins that they have committed, keep all my regulations, and act justly and responsibly, they will surely live and not die. 

[SINNERSAVED]

8 minutes ago, Davida said:

Who did I include Sinner saved? -- All of us , at last glance-- I'd say that included myself, lol!!    However, my point was,  if I say sinner saved,  you are wrong, a false teacher, bear no fruit,  and I will pray for you that God fixes your heart-- how does that feel?  Not very good I'd think. You seem to miss my meaning & my point.

no I wanted to make sure I have not been rude to any one, and if I was wanted to apologize ,if I did,

 but it is not the case and wanted to give a opinion on your posts thats all, blessings to you sister

[ARGOSY]

On 3/20/2016 at 5:41 AM, MorningGlory said:

I had to go back and find the post you took that from because I didn't remember it. Here is the whole thing written to SinnerSaved:

Just so you know, someone giving their opinion is NOT false teaching.  You contradict your own statement.  The Pretrib Rapture is correct, to anyone who can see the truth in Scripture.  Ezra quoted Scripture; he did not add ANYTHING to it.  He provided his interpretation of it.  You need to learn the difference between opinion and 'teaching'.

I don't see where I mentioned you at all.  But yes, the PreTrib Rapture is correct.  I think you and I have discussed that before.  What are you asking?

MorningGlory, you seem so certain. But think about it. For example if the bible refers to one great war from a northern army, why see scriptures about this event  and deduce TWO great wars from the northern army?    If the bible refers to one second coming, why would people introduce a doctrine of TWO second comings? I am not saying you do, I'm just illustrating a point that if the bible mentions an event in 4 different places then why split it into two events when the descriptions are very close to eachother.

Matthew 24 clearly refers to a gathering of Christians into the clouds at the clear second coming. One needs scriptural support to introduce an earlier rapture. The other times the bible describes a rapture/gathering are also all in second coming context.  The introduction of an artificial earlier rapture has no rapture verses to support it. It seems strange to believe in something never described in the bible.

[SINNERSAVED]

20 minutes ago, Davida said:

Nope no offence here. just trying to explain myself.

[Reinitin]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them "false teachers".  

I don't think they are false teachers. I don't think they are spirit led mature teachers at all, I think they scan posts to find something they can put people down about and answer to show how smart they are and they don't even read every thing said to understand what someone is trying to say. I think that because one of them apologised to me and confessed that is what he did.  Now I know the one who apologized does love the Lord and is my brother in Christ and I think the Lord for hearing prayers for Him.

[MorningGlory]

33 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

MorningGlory, you seem so certain. But think about it. For example if the bible refers to one great war from a northern army, why see scriptures about this event  and deduce TWO great wars from the northern army?    If the bible refers to one second coming, why would people introduce a doctrine of TWO second comings? I am not saying you do, I'm just illustrating a point that if the bible mentions an event in 4 different places then why split it into two events when the descriptions are very close to eachother.

Matthew 24 clearly refers to a gathering of Christians into the clouds at the clear second coming. One needs scriptural support to introduce an earlier rapture. The other times the bible describes a rapture/gathering are also all in second coming context.  The introduction of an artificial earlier rapture has no rapture verses to support it. It seems strange to believe in something never described in the bible.

I have never said anything about two os anything.  ?  Not sure what that means.  I have my opinion about the Rapture and I base it on Scripture; it's not going to change.  I DO recognize that no one here, or anywhere, knows for sure because interpretations vary.  I don't try to convince anyone else to believe as I do because it makes no difference to me.  If I'm wrong, I'm going to be dead pretty quickly; if the Mid and Post Tribbers are wrong, they are going to be very happy sooner.  Either way, we end up with the Lord.

[ARGOSY]

On 3/18/2016 at 1:33 AM, bopeep1909 said:

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
 

Thanks for posting this bopeep. Its the only coherent defense of the pre-trib doctrine I have read in years.  Some good points there, however they are all wrong

A1)  1 Thess 4/5 actually states that the time of the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord, a day of wrath.  The very verse used to support a pre-trib rapture supports a post-trib rapture occurring on a day of wrath:

 will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Rev 19:4 is describing an event that occurred later on the day of the Lord. We are raptured earlier, we miss the wrath and the final war and the hailstones and great earthquake. We are feasting during this time. Then we join the heavenly procession to destroy the gathered armies.   With this view, Rev 19 does not contradict a rapture at the second coming.

A2)  1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10 do not even hint at a rapture before the 7 year tribulation. The "hour of trial" most likely is referring to the day of wrath. There is nothing in both verses that require the wrath/hour of trial taking a few years.

A3)  Yes the rapture is a day of deliverance for believers.  However regarding Matthew 24 this does not describe the removal of unbelievers as per your post, it describes Jesus on the clouds and the angels gathering the elect. (they gather Christians, not unbelievers) 

A4) There is nothing secret about the description in 1 Corinthians 15. You need some scriptural support for this concept of a "secret rapture". It is unsupported in the bible and your quoted verses do not indicate any secrecy. In addition 1 Corinthians 15 clearly describes this rapture event occurring at a definite coming of Christ, a phrase pre-tribs do not like to use to describe the rapture. The bible has no problem calling the rapture "the coming of Christ". 

A5) The verses used to prove imminence do not. I have just read all 3 and they do not hint at imminence.  Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

Scripture is clear unbelievers will be surprised. Scripture is clear we will not be surprised. So the view of imminence contradicts the bible which has a very clear timeframe and states we will not be surprised. 

2 Thess 5:  you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

So unfortunately for the pre-trib view, there is no scriptural backing.

[ARGOSY]

20 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

I have never said anything about two os anything.  ?  Not sure what that means.  I have my opinion about the Rapture and I base it on Scripture; it's not going to change.  I DO recognize that no one here, or anywhere, knows for sure because interpretations vary.  I don't try to convince anyone else to believe as I do because it makes no difference to me.  If I'm wrong, I'm going to be dead pretty quickly; if the Mid and Post Tribbers are wrong, they are going to be very happy sooner.  Either way, we end up with the Lord.

True, either way we end up with the Lord. Regarding importance, well all scripture is important and its better that we understand it. Regarding clarity, well sure there seems to be no consensus, but clarity can be acquired. One needs only be open to the bible and not one's preconceived ideas. 

 

The reason I mentioned  two events , is that at the second coming, Matthew 24 refers to a trumpet call, and the angels gathering the elect when Jesus comes on the clouds, on a day of wrath and a thief in the night. (elect means Christians)

And then 1 Thessalonians 4/5 describe a gathering in the clouds at a trumpet call, at the coming of the Lord , on a day of wrath and a thief in the night.  ⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

To post tribs they are obviously the same event, for some reason pre-tribs see them as two separate events. 

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Reinitin said:

 

On 3/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, Reinitin said:

Calling me a false teacher and lukewarm christian saying i deny the truth because I say the word rapture isn't in the bible is coming from people who are truly lacking in sound doctrine (teaching).

20 hours ago, Reinitin said:

many people on this website move their nasty comments to messaging.

I'm trying to avoid attacking by name or bring copy out from messages. I would hope the Lord would correct the hearts of his people. If they are reading this they know what messages they sent and they know what spirit they were in when they were grabbing at my words to fight about them...

If people are sending you "nasty comments" by messaging, they should be reported. That is not acceptable board behavior. Neither is then bringing such things up in an open forum, if you can't quote them -- because then it becomes hearsay.