Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[n2thelight]

What trump is the below?

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It's the 7th and last ,the same one from Thess and Corinth

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

You would have us believe that these 3 are all different,are you serious?

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Many others see it the way you do.  Marv Rosenthal, a dear brother in the Lord, has been one of the primary advocates of the Pre-wrath position for years.

The main leg that idea stands on is defining the wrath of God as beginning later in the 70th week of Daniel.  And on the surface, it would seem so.

I see (?) the wrath as beginning right out of the gate, with the breaking of the first seal.  The seals represent things that are happening on the earth, but these events do not happen until the seals are broken.  And who is it that is breaking the seals?  Yeshua Himself, who is God.  By implication, the events could not happen until Yeshua broke open those seals, therefore, it is by His hand that they happen.  So Yeshua is the one who is behind these events which are the first calamities that come upon the earth.

 

"But, the scripture clearly says that Yeshua was undergoing the punishing wrath of God for our sins that we deserve."

Got scripture to prove this?

 So was it the Romans or God that killed Yeshua?  Trick question... both!  But it could not happen unless God was behind it all the time and bringing it forth as it was predicted in the scripture to happen.

So, Yeshua is opening the seals starting in Revelation 6.  It is by His hand these things are happening upon the earth.  They cannot start to happen until Yeshua breaks open each seal.   Even though it is weather, geologic, and human caused chaos, it could not happen without Yeshua bringing it forth.  

Therefore, the seals are indeed the beginning of the wrath of God. 

Scripture refutes this.

And that leads to the conundrum we face.....

In your mind only.

if the seals are indeed part of the wrath of God, then how is it the scripture says we are not appointed to wrath?   And why is the church not even mentioned from chapter 4 onward in Revelation?

Absence of evidence is not proof of anything. A great many things are not mentioned between Rev 4 and 21. I suppose that means none of those things exist on earth either? People need to wake up to this kind of 'proof' and see it for what it is, doubtful disputation.

 Why did Isaiah write the passage where God is telling His people to hide themselves in their rooms because He is coming out of His place to bring wrath upon the earth?  And why did Yeshua, when He was here on earth, mention that He was returning to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us?  And where is the Father's house?  It sure isn't here on earth, at least, not until the new heaven and new earth are created.

Doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  We each see the scripture in our limited, mortal way.   

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I wanted to separate this one out so we could focus on it better.  You raise a very valid question.

Who is there with John?  Notice in Revelation 4:4, there are 24 elders with white robes and gold crowns.  Now, angels do not get gold crowns.

 Those are given to only those who were made righteous by the blood of Yeshua.  

You don't know this is true. One can state with surety that crowns ARE given to those made righteous by the blood, but it is false to say ONLY. Unless you have fact to back this opinion it's just anther agenda driven, doubt casting ,and utterly damaging, personal opinion.

The Bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5:10 the Greek is Bema) where the believer's works are judged (not their salvation) has already happened.

Objection. Opinion. Any proof of the timing? From scripture?

 Thus the Ekklesia has already been brought before the Bema seat judgement.  The church is there as a separate entity from John.

Objection. Opinion. Any proof of the timing? From scripture?

Now, why would the singular address be used as you asked?  Good question.  We are all individuals, but we make up the one body of Messiah.  We are all individuals, but we are all the one bride of Messiah.   But that is not really the point.  I have never held that John being there represents the church en masse.  The 24 elders are who the church is.  John is an observer of these events and was told... I will shew thee.  But point of fact.... those 24 elders do have white robes and gold crowns.  Angels do not get gold crowns.  That is an exclusive of believers.  And what is the other purpose of the Gold crowns?  Rewards, yes, but something else..... Read Revelation 2:26-27

Angels are not elders, nor are elders the elect. Prove the nature and identity of the elders from the written word or your conclusion is once again opinion and not fact.

Some, I think, confuse John going up for the church.  But the church is right there in front of John.  The church has been mentioned in the 7 letters directed at them by Yeshua Himself  in chapters 2 & 3.  But the church is never mentioned again in all the the Book of the Revelation after chapter 3.  No need to.  The church is no longer on the earth.  Now that doesn't mean that others on the earth will not come to trust in the saving work of the Messiah also and be saved.

Not possible in the pretrib scenario. Believers are not appointed to wrath, it's the foundation of the pretrib doctrine. While the former is an absolute pretrib casts millions into the very wrath pretrib says to which believers are not appointed. It is impossible for pretrib, you, or any other pretrib adherent to reconcile this fault in the doctrine.

 Israel has to cry out for the Messiah's return (Hosea 5:15 & Matthew 23:39) so obviously at some point, the majority of Israel comes to faith in Yeshua.  It just means that what we have known as the Ekklesia from the time of Pentacost after Yeshua's resurrection until today, they are not part of that.  But then, neither were the saints of the OT part of the NT Ekklesia.  They looked forward to the Messiah and trusted, but they were not part of the Ekklesia of the NT.    Moses, David, the Prophets..... they were not and are not part the NT Ekklesia, but they are saved by the same atoning work of Yeshua.  The Ekklesia (church) is a unique identity, but not everyone throughout history who are saved by the atonement of Messiah part of the NT Ekklesia.  It all really shouldn't be as difficult as some make it out to be. 

All the believers of all ages are members of the congregation. Paul said, "...if you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise." A great deal of profound truth is contained in those 17 words. All the promises were to our father Abraham and by extension us. If we are not of Abraham, we are not heirs according to the promise and not in Christ either. If the Promises are not made to Abraham, and kept by God, we are not heirs. We are grafted into the natural branch, adopted, not the natural sons but heirs of the adoption all the same, if we and the seed of Abraham are one and the same.

Kinda sad you don't get that. Makes me think you do not want the promises of God. A real tragedy. 

 

 

[inchrist]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I wanted to separate this one out so we could focus on it better.  You raise a very valid question.

Who is there with John?  Notice in Revelation 4:4, there are 24 elders with white robes and gold crowns.  Now, angels do not get gold crowns.  Those are given to only those who were made righteous by the blood of Yeshua.  And take notice also, crowns are given as rewards.  The Bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5:10 the Greek is Bema) where the believer's works are judged (not their salvation) has already happened.  Thus the Ekklesia has already been brought before the Bema seat judgement.  The church is there as a separate entity from John.

 

I can not buy into the conclusion of this argument that the Elders specifically mentioned in heaven means that their presence is the whole Church being in heaven.

In fact when looking at the context, it is clear that the whole church is indeed NOT present.

Revelation 5:8-10  shows the 24 elders acting on behalf of believers who are on 
earth in the tribulation.

Rev 5:8-10
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders 
fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, 
which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
"You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have 
redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.

If you are to accept that the KJV is a newer varient on the greek text and rather submit to those who are based on older manuscripts of the Greek text then the NASB's has the correct translation of Rev 5:8-10, being, the four creatures and 24 
elders are singing in third person view and are therefore detached from the group which the song is referring to - redeemed from every 
nation , 

Thus the 24 elders have  excluded themselves from the whole body of the redeemed. They are therefore NOT a part of the Church.

If you wish to challenge the validity of the NASB translation on older Greek text, then consider the following....

The 24 elders are not the only ones singing this song.... Its a joint choir effort with the four creatures..... are the four creatures claiming to be 
redeemed from every nation?

What nation then has such creatures?

There is a clear distinction being made here between the “saints” (who's prayers are being offered) 
and to those offering them (the 24 elders & 4 creatures). 

Therefore the saints are absent and  ot present otherwise the saints would be speaking face to face with God, as do all other creatures  who are already in heaven.

Further if you examine Rev 4:6-11

Rev 4:6-11
6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, 
and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7 The 
first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living 
creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8 The 
four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And 
they do not rest day or night, saying:
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!" 
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the 
throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who 
sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns 
before the throne, saying: 
11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all 
things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”

 

Notice the unison, whenever the 4 creatures give praise, the 24 elders repeat a different verse and form of praise. 

And they do this day and night- continously, Isaiah witnessed the continuous praise of the 
four creatures in Isaiah 6:2–3 

Since the 24 elders are continuously reacting to the praises by the four 
creatures, the presence of the 24 elders in heaven is not something unique to the 
tribulation, but has been going on since Isaiahs day.

Last two points:

1. John was not in Heaven long enough to know the 24elders and angels were praising God continuously day and not....this eliminates that it was a personal observation but rather information given to John instead.

 

2. The victors crown on the 24 elders can only be fitting  since they are acting on behalf of the church and not being the church, a hevanly visual of who they are acting on behalf for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[inchrist]

14 hours ago, OldCoot said:

.Now make the case from the OT that there will  be no pre 70th week removal of the righteous. And you better make a very strong case to counter the accusation that such a concept is a lie from the father of lies.  

 

Battle of jericho

[Adstar]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Do you believe what Jesus taught?

• Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.  Matthew 12:31

If so, why do you insist that idolatry is not forgivable?  If people repent of the mark and image, they will be forgiven of their idolatry.  Jesus said so.

I agree that those who have rejected the truth won't repent.  Repentance is for those believers who were deceived into accepting the mark and image.  If you don't think that believers can be deceived just look around.

Yes i believe what Jesus taught.. And yes the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

But the only way, even the most minor sins can be forgiven is by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ. That Way of salvation must be Believed and trusted in for one to have their forgivable sins forgiven.. I still stand on the Word of God that all who receive the mark of the beast will not be forgiven.. Not because it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit but because those who end up receiving the Mark of the beast will never repent of it, they will never believe Jesus and trust in the way He has made to Redeem them..

So while Idolatry is forgivable, it is only forgivable of the one who is guilty of idolatry if they acknowledges their sin of idolatry to God and trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Again read the scriptures i quoted they explain why all those who receive the mark of the beast will be damned..

[Adstar]

8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

This is the purpose of the millennium

Those who take the mark are not automatically damned ,the true test comes after the Millennium.

Must won't even know that they took the mark,as God will send them a strong delusion ,they will actually think that satan is Christ

I believe they will be definitely automatically damned.. They are given over the delusion by God to ensure that they will be damned.. Because they will have already rejected the Love of the Truth ( Gospel way of salvation )..  Once people have rejected Jesus they are most definitely damned..  And as God used Pharaoh ( who rejected the will of God ) to Gods Glory so will the people who will be given over to delusion serve a purpose.. No one is neutral people are either with God and will be used as vessels of mercy or they are with satan and will be used as vessels of wrath..

[inchrist]

18 minutes ago, Adstar said:

.. Not because it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit but because those who end up receiving the Mark of the beast will never repent of it, they will never believe Jesus and trust in the way He has made to Redeem them..

But that is what blasphemy of the holy Spirit is.....refusing to repent....refusing the ministry of redemption.

So when you state....

Word of God that all who receive the mark of the beast will not be forgiven

.....is based on a continual refusal of accepting redemption work of the holy spirit the very definition of blasphemy of the holyspirit, and not based purely on accepting a mark.

 

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Yes i believe what Jesus taught.. And yes the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..

But the only way, even the most minor sins can be forgiven is by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ. That Way of salvation must be Believed and trusted in for one to have their forgivable sins forgiven.. I still stand on the Word of God that all who receive the mark of the beast will not be forgiven.. Not because it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit but because those who end up receiving the Mark of the beast will never repent of it, they will never believe Jesus and trust in the way He has made to Redeem them..

So while Idolatry is forgivable, it is only forgivable of the one who is guilty of idolatry if they acknowledges their sin of idolatry to God and trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Again read the scriptures i quoted they explain why all those who receive the mark of the beast will be damned..

I agree that those who rejected the truth for the pursuit of worldly lusts will be kept under punishment.  That's scriptural.  They will only continue to double-down on their own self-serving interests.

• The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:9

I'm talking about believers who are deceived into going along with the mark and image.  The plagues are God's judgment against that sin for the purpose of conviction and repentance.  Eventually it will get to the point where no one repents, but that is near the end of the plagues.