Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

 

This verse has no context of a pretrib rapture. In fact, paul says:

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

There is no mention of timing at all here.

Hi Steve_S,

That is right, no mention of timing there, however.......(you`d have to know I`d put in a however, ay  ) however, we do read in the book of Acts that it is God who will send Jesus at the time of the restoration of all things of which God spoke by the Old Testament prophets.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

There is timing there, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve_S,

That is right, no mention of timing there, however.......(you`d have to know I`d put in a however, ay  ) however, we do read in the book of Acts that it is God who will send Jesus at the time of the restoration of all things of which God spoke by the Old Testament prophets.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

There is timing there, Marilyn.

Timing is given elsewhere with more specificity.

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Timing is given elsewhere with more specificity.

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hi Steve_S,

Mmmm but who was the Lord talking to? You and me or Israel?

And which elect is God referring to. At the time that the Lord spoke those words, there was only one elect that the hearers knew of - Israel. Now by the Holy Spirit we know that we, the Body of Christ are also referred to as `elect.` There are 2 elects.

Also we know that when the Lord comes with those that have died, for the rest of the Body of Christ that the tribes, nations of the earth are saying "Peace and Safety.`

It is not till the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic hosts, that the people cry to the rocks etc, "Fall on us."

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve_S,

Mmmm but who was the Lord talking to? You and me or Israel?

And which elect is God referring to. At the time that the Lord spoke those words, there was only one elect that the hearers knew of - Israel. Now by the Holy Spirit we know that we, the Body of Christ are also referred to as `elect.` There are 2 elects.

Also we know that when the Lord comes with those that have died, for the rest of the Body of Christ that the tribes, nations of the earth are saying "Peace and Safety.`

It is not till the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic hosts, that the people cry to the rocks etc, "Fall on us."

regards, Marilyn.

So it is your claim that the elect spoken of below are not Spirit filled believers, but the nation of Israel? It can't be both.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Also, at what precise point in history would the audience have understood that there are "more than one" elect? This would be important to establish to validate your claim.

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve_S,

Mmmm but who was the Lord talking to? You and me or Israel?

And which elect is God referring to. At the time that the Lord spoke those words, there was only one elect that the hearers knew of - Israel. Now by the Holy Spirit we know that we, the Body of Christ are also referred to as `elect.` There are 2 elects.

Also we know that when the Lord comes with those that have died, for the rest of the Body of Christ that the tribes, nations of the earth are saying "Peace and Safety.`

It is not till the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic hosts, that the people cry to the rocks etc, "Fall on us."

regards, Marilyn.

To the apostles who would later TELL them to the church.   You be blessed Marilyn.  

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve_S,

Mmmm but who was the Lord talking to? You and me or Israel?

And which elect is God referring to. At the time that the Lord spoke those words, there was only one elect that the hearers knew of - Israel. Now by the Holy Spirit we know that we, the Body of Christ are also referred to as `elect.` There are 2 elects.

Also we know that when the Lord comes with those that have died, for the rest of the Body of Christ that the tribes, nations of the earth are saying "Peace and Safety.`

It is not till the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic hosts, that the people cry to the rocks etc, "Fall on us."

regards, Marilyn.

You are loved sister.   When Christ returns in the ONE TIME EVENT its for the church and to lay DOWN the wrath of ALMIGHTY.

its why the tribes who knew him not will mourn as he is gathering his elect .   paul does such a super beauty job of this in second thess.  THE FIRST chapter.

You are loved sister .

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Steve_S said:

So it is your claim that the elect spoken of below are not Spirit filled believers, but the nation of Israel? It can't be both.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Also, at what precise point in history would the audience have understood that there are "more than one" elect? This would be important to establish to validate your claim.

Hi Steve,

The point is that Jesus was talking to the people of Israel and Jesus knew and they knew, Israel was called the elect of God. To mean some other group Jesus would have said - "my ecclesia which I will build, the angels will gather......" The only elect that the audience knew was Israel. There was no other elect for them to understand.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

To the apostles who would later TELL them to the church.   You be blessed Marilyn.  

Hi friend...

Yes the apostles would tell the believers what Jesus said to Israel concerning Israel`s future.

Note: WE are NOT the centre of the Bible. God does talk to other people concerning them and their future.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

You are loved sister.   When Christ returns in the ONE TIME EVENT its for the church and to lay DOWN the wrath of ALMIGHTY.

its why the tribes who knew him not will mourn as he is gathering his elect .   paul does such a super beauty job of this in second thess.  THE FIRST chapter.

You are loved sister .

Hi friend....

It seems we do not agree there bro.

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

25 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

The point is that Jesus was talking to the people of Israel and Jesus knew and they knew, Israel was called the elect of God. To mean some other group Jesus would have said - "my ecclesia which I will build, the angels will gather......" The only elect that the audience knew was Israel. There was no other elect for them to understand.

regards, Marilyn.

 

You are making an assumption and you are certainly free to do that, but that does not answer the questions above. Why do you make the assumption that Jesus was only speaking to the audience that He was sitting in front of at that very moment? Also, why do you make the assumption that the audience, being His own disciples, had no idea that Christians are elect? Can you point to where the bible specifies this please?