Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Diaste]

On 5/10/2018 at 3:30 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Dead in Christ shall rise FIRST"

 

And those who are alive shall be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air

All of this shall happen in and instant .... in the twinkling  of an eye [1st Corinthians 15:51-58; 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18]

This is the pre tribulation rapture [Revelation 3:10]

While the scriptures are true, the ones you cite above, there still is no proof of timing, is there? But wait...there is, 1 Cor 15:52"... at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,". If this is the highly touted rapture of the Pretrib doctrine then isn't there a timing problem? 

1 Thess 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Matt 24

the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Luke 21

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 

If 1 Thess 4 is the 'rapture' then is must be after great tribulation as 3 Gospels tell us pretty much the same thing happens after GT. So how does your belief Matt 24 is for Israel only square with 1 Thess 4? The same event is described by both Paul and Matthew yet one is for the church and one is for Israel? Where do you think Paul got this to write it to the Thessalonians? Directly from Jesus.

You are in error in this.

You will soon see.

The beast is coming for the church.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

While the scriptures are true, the ones you cite above, there still is no proof of timing, is there? But wait...there is, 1 Cor 15:52"... at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,". If this is the highly touted rapture of the Pretrib doctrine then isn't there a timing problem? 

1 Thess 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Matt 24

the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Luke 21

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 

If 1 Thess 4 is the 'rapture' then is must be after great tribulation as 3 Gospels tell us pretty much the same thing happens after GT. So how does your belief Matt 24 is for Israel only square with 1 Thess 4? The same event is described by both Paul and Matthew yet one is for the church and one is for Israel? Where do you think Paul got this to write it to the Thessalonians? Directly from Jesus.

You are in error in this.

You will soon see.

The beast is coming for the church.

And, as Amos says:

• Surely the Lord God does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.  Amos 3:7

So we have Zechariah 9:

Then the Lord will appear over them,  [in the clouds]
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;  [Seventh trumpet - Rev 11:19]
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,  [the trumpet of God]
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

It all lines up.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Guaranteed, the Lord will gather Israel from the four corners of the earth [the 8th trumpet]

This will occur after the tribulation period is over

Edited May 13, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:56 PM, KiwiChristian said:

 

Greetings!

There is indeed a lot here. A lot is said and a lot needs to be answered.

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

But other passages do. 1 Thess 4 and Matt 24.

2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why?

Does he have to? It's obvious from the above prophetic passages there is a gathering at Christ's return.

3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church.

Proof by omission? Not proof of anything. An idea in the OT and NT is persecution of the saints, elect. Are you saying the church members are not saints nor elect of Jesus?

4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13.

How is the glorious appearing a known day? Of that day knoweth no man but the Father only. Matt 24:36 in reference to Matt 24:30-31. 

5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6).

Which means John was let into heaven. Any other claim is adding, a dangerous endeavor.

6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven.

See above.

7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations:

i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19.

Unless there is specific language the church is not on earth this is just an assumption. Proof by omission of any fact. It's weak to assert by nonexistence. In other words you are saying, "The church is not here because there is no proof it is here." False in conception. I think it odd that pretrib misses that the beast makes war with the saints. Aren't the members of the church, saints?
ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements.

What 9 statements?

8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2.

Now where is the scripture equating the 24 elders with the 7 churches? Or the saints? Or the elect?

The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9)

The proof is on the pudding. Where's the pudding? Post scripture equating the groups.

9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4).

10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

Objection. Inconsistencies. At the end you ask the question, "Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride?" But it's ok to take the new bride to war? That's nuts.

11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18).

So it's a comfort to be rescued from fat, easy western lives but it's not a comfort to be rescued from perilous circumstances? This kind of thinking smacks of elitism as 100,000 believers die for Jesus every year. Where is their rapture? What comfort do you give them? They are more comforted that you will be when the pretrib doctrine is proven false and you are confronted with the very thing to tried to escape.

13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10).

This is 'to guard' or 'watch over'. Nothing here suggests being taken from one place to another.

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

Proof? Your citation gives no time frame and is likely misinterpreted missing the real concept, "Be ready."

15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8).

2 Thess 2 is stating the revealing of the beast at the midpoint must occur before the Coming of Jesus. This passage has nothing to do with when the beast is revealed, the beginning of GT or the rapture. Paul is settling the matter unequivocally declaring the apostasy (in it's fullness from what I see) and the A of D come before Jesus' return.

16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3)

What is the thesis? I thought it was pretrib proofs? Are you just throwing stuff out there?

17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31).

Is that so? Why does pretrib cast believers into the wrath of God when pretrib says they will never see wrath? Huh? Why?

18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49.

Oh my. Putting God in a box? Are you saying you think the passage refers to gathering and then burning tares before a gathering of the wheat? No. The tares are bound TO be burned. As in moving toward a space time moment when they will be burned. The tares are bound and piled awaiting their destiny with destruction and then the wheat is gathered, when after, the tares are destroyed. The word 'to', which you are reading 'and',  is prós , not kaí , and means "prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to "interface with" (literally, moving toward a goal or destination)." So the enemies of God are bound in lockstep marching toward the day of wrath and the valley of decision where they will be burned, all the while the friends of God are safe and sound in the Throne room.

19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).

Why do so many come up with such questions? You have no idea when this takes place. Sure, it's after Jesus sits on the Throne, but when? One day? Two? A century or two? Reading into the text is always cause for alarm. 

20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium?

People.

If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies.

You have to read the scriptures to find this. Zech 14   "....and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains;" This is how the earth is repopulated, the remnant of Jews that flee to the valley when the Lord comes to fight His enemies.

21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming.

See #19 answer.

22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events.

Yes. but only because they are different events. One is the coming and appearing of Jesus and the other is the gathering of the elect. Not the same in anyone's mind.

23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?

Basic doctrine proves all are one in Christ. There is no Jew or Gentile. More basic doctrine says Gentiles are adopted into Israel as children of God.  Jacob, being Israel, is in for a time of trouble, and we all are Israel. If not, then you are not a part of the kingdom of God.

24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church:

"7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". The church is made up of saints. What? Are you saying you're not a saint?

25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20

Yes but this isn't proof of anything. The GT saints are seen in the throne room under the altar in Rev 6. No timing can be proven.

26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2).

It's sad you think this. It only comes as thief to the dead. The living are not overtaken as a thief. "4 But ye, brethren,are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief". Are you saying you're in darkness?

27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3.

Not possible. No believer will experience the wrath of God. There can be no believers left behind to endure wrath. So there is no pretrib rapture and you are confusing tribulation with wrath; they are not the same.

28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4).

True, which day comes after GT, deep into the last half of the week. Are you saying the pretrib rapture is at the day of the Lord and the day of the Lord is at the beginning? You do not know scripture in that case.

29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation).False equivalency., but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) .False equivalency. As if salvation wasn't for everyone of all ages. by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9).

Is this for  everyone or just pretribbers? Cause pretrib dooms millions to the wrath of God while pretrib adherents escape wrath.

‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) .False equivalency.to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10).

 But only some of us, right? Just pretribbers are delivered from wrath. Tribulation saints have to endure wrath. Why do you continue to make the same argument many times? I like it cause I can oppose the utter foolishness many times, but it is tedious and smacks of desperation.

30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials.

.And it certainly behooves God to deliver western believers from the torture of jobs, health benefits, two gar garages, full bellies, fresh water, general security and familial settings. Where do you get this stuff? What about the 1000,000 believers in Jesus that are persecuted and die every year for the faith and testimony in Christ? What do you say to them? Where is their deliverance? I say they are more comforted than you except you repent of this hypocrisy.

31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy.

Well that's just wrong. Doesn't it bother you to lie? Let's post the definition of apostasia. 

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt

Apostasion is not the word used by Paul so your contention is false. But if you want to be divorced from God feel free to do as you wish. In fact there is nothing in this text that speaks to a departure from one place to another. The apostasy is in full glory, if only you could see it...

32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels.

See the answer to #23.

33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36).

Reading into the text again? Jesus comes with ARMIES in Rev 19. It is just another false equivalency as armies do not equal the church. Neither does hagios equal the church as angels are described as hagios as well. You need more info to prove your point. 

35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week.

See #23.

36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

Unless you have facts literary structure proves nothing.

37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’

Never heard this one before. Pretty sure it ain't true.

38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever.

See #23.

39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God.

An emotional appeal. Incorrect exegesis. Lack of understanding. Jesus is God, bro. And you're conflating three very different concepts as one. Illogical.

40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation.

Now you're just getting worse.

41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments.

Huh?

42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium.

‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34).

See #11 and #30.

43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation.

If the doctrine of imminence was real and correct; which it's not; soooo.... false again.

44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14).

See #23

45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation.

Trying to prove existence by nonexistence is logically fallacious.  "The church must be in heaven because it's not mentioned on earth." Could be. Maybe not. Tell me; how does the dragon make war with the saints if the church ain't on earth?

46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation.

And what are they?

47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?

Emotional appeal void of fact and therefore meaningless to the debate.

I once heard someone say, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." You should look into this.

[Diaste]

29 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Guaranteed, the Lord will gather Israel form the four corners of the earth [the 8th trumpet]

This will occur after the tribulation period is over

Brother, this thing you say is a grave error. Listen:

Galatians 3

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That you don't get this is baffling. If we are in Jesus Christ we are the seed of Abraham. Like Isaac. And Jacob. And David. And Jesus. This separation of Israel and the church shows a lack of spiritual insight. If you are not of the seed of Abraham then you are not an heir. No promise is to you.

Call on our Father to arrest this downward spiral and seek the mind of Christ.

[Daniel 11:36]

You seek it son .... you are wrong, Israel and the Lord's church are are two different things

Only a few of Israel have become Christian in the last 2000 years 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You seek it son .... you are wrong, Israel and the Lord's church are are two different things

Only a few of Israel have become Christian in the last 2000 years 

How can I be wrong when it's not me? The scripture says so. Paul wrote it. The Lord spoke it. It's truth.

 

Acts 10:45

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

Acts 11:1

The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Acts 13:16

Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!

Acts 13:26

“Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.”

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 2:10

but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Romans 3:9

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Romans 3:22

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Romans 10:12

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

1 Corinthians 12:13

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:8

Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Galatians 3:14

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:6

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

It is an oft repeated theme that Jews and Gentiles are the same in Jesus. To them all the blessings are in Abraham and they are all one in Christ Jesus. They even share the curses. The other theme is, "...the Jew first, and also the Gentile..." So in reality if anyone is going to get snatched away in a pretrib rapture it should be the Jews while the church stays for the week. But that's not going to happen.

So again scripture opposes your personal evaluation of the situation. Repent before the Lord comes.

 

[inchrist]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

I once heard someone say, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." You should look into this.

There's a pre trib inconsistency here

Kiwichristia

 

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

 

How is that the olivet discourse is for Israel:

 Matthew 24

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

And then claim luke 12:39 is the church?

 ³⁹ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁰ You also must be ready,because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

It's the same discourse, it's the same message of the olivet discourse

Luke 12 is Matthew 24

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

There's a pre trib inconsistency here

Kiwichristian

How is that the olivet discourse is for Israel:

 Matthew 24

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

And then claim luke 12:39 is the church?

 ³⁹ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁰ You also must be ready,because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

It's the same discourse, it's the same message of the olivet discourse

Luke 12 is Matthew 24

If this reply was for me I apologize for not understanding, but it seems we agree.

[inchrist]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

If this reply was for me I apologize for not understanding, but it seems we agree.

Yes was for you...domtt stress i  understand youre not pretrib....Sharing notes.