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However, it's not limited to Israel. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20 That includes Matthew 24. I will observe Matthew 24.

This post will end up with arguments about who got grafted, what is grafting, into what did they get grafted, who is the church, who is Israel. All these topics are related. If you see the church and Israel as two distinct and separate entities you will have one answer. If you see gentiles as becoming fellow heirs to Jewish believers of all ages, you will have a different answer. So to answer the question in the OP, if you can tell me why the Great Commission is for the church, but anything else Jesus said is only for Israel, then you are a better man than I am.

Okay, I actually laughed out loud at that one.

'And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, “Well spake the Holy Ghost .. by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, .... Saying, “Go unto this people, and say, ...... Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; ........ and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, .. and their ears are dull of hearing, .... and their eyes have they closed; ...... lest they should see with their eyes, ........ and hear with their ears, .......... and understand with their heart, ............ and should be converted, .............. and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.' (Act 28:25-28) Hello @JoeChan82, I believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ of which He, Himself, is the Head, began with the laying aside of Israel in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period: prior to the scattering of Israel in AD70, possibly in AD67. It is marked by the quotation from Isaiah 6:9,10, in Acts 28:26-27, which, when quoted previously by the Lord Jesus Christ, always marked a point of crisis and rejection (Matt.13:14,15; John 12:40). For Israel the final point of crisis came with their continued rejection of the Truth as ministered to them by Paul (Acts 28:22-31), following approx. 40 years of opportunity to repent. Salvation was then sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28) * This rejection by Israel was provisioned for by God, in Christ, by His foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world, and the truth of the Mystery, previously hidden in God (Eph. 3:9), was made known to Paul to administer, as God's Steward, to repair the breach. This truth is written for our learning in the epistles written by Paul subsequently, from prison, in, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Timothy and Titus). * Pentecost was not the beginning of the Church which is being called out today. There would not have been a gentile among them on that occasion, except for proselytes, for it was a Feast of the Jews. Gentiles were also grafted into the Olive tree of Israel in Acts 10 for one purpose only, and that was to inject life into a failing tree, by making Israel jealous (Romans 11:11). * The Gospels are an extension of the Old Testament, and the ministry of our Lord during His first advent was to 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matt. 15:24). The ministry of the twelve was also to that same company (Matt.10:6; Gal.2:9). Only Paul was specifically an Apostle to the Gentiles, and to him only the stewardship of the dispensation of the Mystery was given. (Ephesians 3:2, 6-9) Praise God! There is much that could be said here, Joe, but I hope this will give you food for thought. Thank you. In Christ Jesus Chris

Amen and thanks E57! One reborn will not "desire" sin, though the sin nature still attempts to cause us to desire it: “For the flesh (sin nature; old man, not the body) lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” (Gal 5:17). Those not reborn cannot resist the sin nature without God's Spirit! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). Those not reborn are bereft to be ruled by the sin nature by desiring it over God.

The concept comes from hyper dispensationalism. The Closed Brethren, who Darby was a leader of, said a number of books were not for the church including James. Matthew 24 is just a remnant of that theological twist. Most theology at its base has a point but we tend to take them to an illogical conclusion then fight blindly for them to be so.

Moses spent forty years in the house of Pharaoh; and while his sojourn there was not without its influence and value, yet it was as nothing when compared with his sojourn in the desert. The former might be valuable; but the latter was invaluable, and indispensable. Nothing can possibly make up for the lack of secret communion with the Father, or the training and discipline of His school. “All the wisdom of the Egyptians” would not have qualified Moses for his future path. He might have pursued a most brilliant course through the schools and colleges of Egypt. He might have come forth laden with literary honors—his intellect stored with learning, and his heart full of pride and self-sufficiency. He might have taken out his degree in the school of man, and yet have to learn his alphabet in the school of the Father. Mere human wisdom and learning, how valuable so ever in themselves, can never constitute any one a servant of the Father, nor equip him for any department of divine service. Such things may qualify un-renewed nature to figure before the world, but the man whom the Father will use must be endowed with widely different qualifications—such qualifications as can alone be found in the deep and hallowed retirement of the Father’s presence. All true servants of the Father have been made to know and experience the truth of these statements. Moses at Horeb, Elijah at Cherith, Ezekiel at Chebar, Paul in Arabia and John at Patmos, are all striking examples of the immense practical importance of being alone with the Father. When we look at the Divine Servant, we find that the time He spent in private was nearly ten times as long as that which He spent in public. He, though perfect in understanding and in will, spent nearly thirty years in the obscurity of a carpenter’s house at Nazareth before He made His appearance in public. And even when He had entered upon His public career, how often He retreated from the gaze of men to enjoy the sweet and sacred retirement of the Divine Presence! Now we may feel disposed to ask, “How could the urgent demand for workman ever be met if all need such protracted training in secret before they come forth to their work”? This is the Master’s care—not ours. He can provide workmen, and He can train them also. This is not man’s work. The Father alone can provide a true minister. Nor is it a question with Him as to the length of time needful for the education of such an individual. We know He could educate him in a moment, if it were His will to do so. One thing is evident, namely, that the Father has had all His servants very much alone with Himself, both before and after their entrance upon their public work; nor will anyone truly get on without this. The absence of secret training and discipline will necessarily leave us barren, superficial and theoretic. A man who ventures forth upon a public career before he has duly weighed himself in the balances of the sanctuary, or measured himself in the presence of his Father, is like a ship putting out to sea without proper ballast: he will doubtless overturn with the first stiff breeze. On the contrary, there is a depth, a solidity and a steadiness flowing from our having passed from form to form in the school of our Father, which are essential elements in the formation of the character of a true and effective servant of the Father. - C H Mackintosh MJS devotional for June 13: “There is no personal knowledge of God but as we count on Him, as we are practically conscious of depending on Him and of His caring for us. One without straits, and victories, really has no growing acquaintance with God; and where there is not this, however great the intelligence or sincerity, there is little or no savor.” – M J S http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

The way it all works out is still to be seen. The way you see thing may be slanted against the way I see things but the facts are yet to be established. And if you and Daniel11:36 happen to be correct, I'll gladly take the taunting from both of you. Simultaneously. And hope its a quick trip.

That is not what Matthew 24 is referring to Brother, its going to sink in one day, all the facts are slanted against you, it Might be when you are flying through the Air in SPIRIT FORM, I hope they put you in between me and Daniel 11:36 ? We are both going to be chanting ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM whose u daddy !! No, there are a few reasons. 1. The Rapture has already happened. 2. Why go the meet Jesus just to come straight back down. 3. How can we be married to Christ in our Marriage Chambers, then Return with Christ without a Rapture? (Rev. 19) 4. The Jews are the Wheat who remain on earth with the Wicked. We are Raptured. 5. It sounds like the Rev. ch. 19 return of Jesus and his Bride to the Marriage Supper. (Armageddon) God Bless brother.

Wow, there is SO Much wrong with the above post, it would take more time to unravel, than I have time for right now, but maybe later. In the mean time, maybe someone else will save me the trouble!

One thing that's easily overlooked which is of great significance is this little Greek word in Matthew 24:15 that is translated "Therefore" οὖν - a conjunction indicating that something follows from another necessarily The instructions given in Matthew 24:15 are given because of what takes place in the preceding verses. Let's look: Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). Matthew 24:9-15 What that's stating is that when you see the abomination of desolation, take action because the stuff in green is going to happen. Look at particularly close at verse 9. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 Are the Jews are going to be killed and hated by all nations because of the name of Jesus? I don't think so. It's clearly a message to Christians for the last days.

I don't see a rapture in Matthew 24:36-51 as you state. Can you list the specific verse? I do see the rapture as occurring in Matthew 24:31.

The beast will rule over the Middle Eastern countries during the coming 70th week decreed .... these are Islamic countries Keep in mind that the Bible centers upon Israel and the Middle East for prophetic institution .... and know that the Roman Empire is not mentioned in any prophecy of the Bible's rendering The future prophecies are all centered upon Israel and the Middle East .... the balance of the rest of the world will just be in the wake of the Lord's wrath and judgment

All confession should be made directly to God. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thanks for the reply NM!

It's the spirit of accusation, Rom 8:33 Rev 12:10. The antichrist spirit portraying believers in the worst possible light, Jhn 10:10.

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. God made his new covenant with the divided Israel Kingdoms. The House of Israel and with the House of Judah. Most people that read the bible treat both Kingdoms as the same.

To finish the verses you quoted: Matthew 15:25-28 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Jesus did heal her daughter.

Hello Rocky. There is an obvious connection of the Old Testament convocations and their associated feasts to the gospels as well as the rest of the New Testament. In fact, until I understood that the last supper was indeed the Passover, this passage confused me. Once I realized that Jesus was eating the Passover with His disciples, I understood that when Christ said, "Take, eat; this is my body." he was revealing Himself as the Passover. 1 Corinthians 5:7 … For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Matthew 26:26-28 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. So I understand the importance of Pentecost as well. I followed the links you posted and read all of it. Good stuff.

Thank you Christine. No doubt that Acts is a transitional book. You are, however, the first person that I have ever heard say that the church began at the end of Acts. I have heard that the church began at Pentecost and I have heard that it started with the disciples as recorded in the gospels. I like some of the points you made in your post. Now I have a third option to look at. ? There is a consistency in your arguments that I appreciate.

We have reached a day and time where If you express how you feel it is counted as you complaing or it seems as if no cares that you are struggling. It's as If no one hears your silent cry. People can't ask for legit help for being judged or belittled giving their circumstances. Today if you encounter at least 7 peope at least 1 of them has a silent cry out for help, and don't know how to ask because they have been suppress for so long until they feel as if there feelings don't matter their struggles are ignored but, God is an all knowing God he is always there and us children of God listen today for a silent cry pray for them encourage them and most importantly show love to them jus your love and kindness can turn their day around.. Have a blessed day...

It is a changed heart... so that I no longer do the things I use to do... maybe they can read this large print I

God has not changed, but brazen mankind is hardening his heart daily. Psycho-heresy is the tip of a very wicked iceberg that attempts to 'fix' everything while excluding the Lord High God of The Universe. Like its Humanist and Gnostic roots, it is the antithesis to our Lord and therefore will fail at every attempt to become a salve. Instead, 'it heals my people slightly' and in its thrashing failures, points to more needed funding and more ungodly 'training'. End result? Nobody is responsible, everyone is to blame [NOT] and all is the fault of something or somebody else. Just pick your scapegoat. Men, Father, Husband, God, the Government, childhood abuse. Just name it and claim it as your 'cause'. BUT NEVER FIX IT. (we need the business) Only the Lord can fix it. End of story! There are no absolutes any more. They are despised. You have to be 'fluid' in your appreciation of what is RIGHT. Otherwise you ostracize and marginalize others. We now have a wishy-washy people of uncertain mind trying to pin the tail on a donkey they cannot see and that does not really exist. We have a nation of split-minded and fragmented personalities that call evil good and good evil and depending on the flavor of the week, might even embrace either depending on how many 'likes' they get on their media site. Spiritually dead. Is very, very sad. And Ha-Satan, the messenger of all that is evil and full of pride mocks us in our fallen and failing state. But The Lord High God still calls to us to continue the fight regardless of what we can see or feel. He is the unfailing Umpire of this human predicament and is NEVER confounded by His Creation. Just like Job, we must persevere even when we cannot see the reasons or causes. We just trust.

No I am not. Facebook to me turns out to be a vehicle for self worship, putting self first. It is used in a fashion that becomes "all about me" and telling you about me and more about me. It then leads to ridicule of others, bullying of others. School personnel now have to be assigned to watch facebook postings, as well as tweats, to try to get ahead of all sorts of vile attempts to do harm by kids one to another. Employers also need to have people assigned to watch accounts to protect their businesses. Police departments the same. Facebook is an encourager of all that is vile, it is the tongue of evil heart, and it becomes a near permanent record, never to be blotted out. It is used by the accuser today , and perhaps will be part of some individuals record of life to face before God at the judgement sessions of all of humanity. The time stolen by employees from their employers by unauthorized use of facebook is to me astounding. I see up to three devices being used at the same time by a desk worker one that greets people as they come into a church office. All three, the cellphone, the Ipad tablet, and the office computer, are setup and locked onto various facebook images flashing about, each with family members on their own devices sharing back, evidently no one working anywhere within that family as they chatter on about themselves to each other. It is all very weird to me, this fascination with self.

Seems like it shouldn't be a problem.Just want to know where they get it from? I thought the Word of God was for all,yet they telling me this is for a people who don't even believe in Christ...

Asking the impossible again??

Israel is not special,perse,you're with Christ or against Him,period. Christians are Israel,in other words anyone, whom ever they are,becomes Israel upon accepting Christ. Israel themselves,if not of Christ,are cut off. Say this to say I'm tired of you rapturist saying that Matthew 24 was written to Israel,as that's the only way you can reconcile the verse of Christ,Himself saying He returns after the trib

So, Butero, YOUR condition for making certain you stay saved, or actually knowing you are saved, is to "continue" to serve the Lord. Where as John the Apostle tells us we can """" Know we are saved, because we have trusted in Jesus""""". 1st John 5:13. How does it feel to theologically contradict both Paul and John, everyday you are here? So, the truth is, for me to believe the way you do, i have to delete Paul's Gospel from Jesus's mouth and i have to get rid of everything but Matthew, James, and Hebrews, and the Old Testament. = I vote no., as "i'll instead place my hope in nothing less then Jesus's Blood and Righteousness" So, i think, Butero......... i'll side with John, Paul, Jesus, and Father God, and continue to just watch you try to work it all out by more continuance of more works, works, works.....>. Its interesting that you will write 4000 posts, and you never talk about the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, or the Blood of Jesus, or the Atonement, or GRACE or , "Justification by Faith." And........Romans 4:5...."to him that believeth on God who Justifies the UNGODLY", is a scripture that you'll never use, that i can promise you, = and neither will your commentaries . Im pretty certain that by now, im not the only one here who notices what you always completely omit (the Blood of Jesus) from your "works to keep yourself saved" approach to going to heaven. Buddha has the same approach, and so did Mohammed. All "religions" of the world are doing what you are doing....they are all working to get to some type of "heaven". Im not. Im just simply trusting in.... "God who began salvation in me, and will be faithful to complete it", no matter what. Philippians 1:6

Good point!

I'm really disappointed in Cobolt's failure to call him out. It's almost like he's biased against those who see through the pretrib fantasy. Almost.

You should really try reading what people write before you launch into these kinds of self-serving diatribes. I never accused anyone of attacking me. I accused him of launching baseless attacks. He was attacking what I had written without providing any scriptural quotes or scriptural basis. That's a baseless attack. When you pretribbers want to discuss scripture, let me know. I grow tired of your platitudes and lack of reading comprehension.

amen! And don't be afraid to use the word "speed up", which is the more likely correct translation of 2Peter 3:12. Other parts of the Scriptures demonstrate that God speeds up His plan based on human cooperation and prayer. For instance: Matthew 24:20 "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." And many others, above all Luke 18:1-8

Sorry to hear of your struggle Hiker Mom. I liked what Opossum said about the time you can't sleep to think, pray upon the Lord. Sometimes what I do before bed is that, I read the bible and meditate on the things read and kind of speak to God also who is our Eternal father who cares so much about us all, and I tell Him what is on my mind and I ask Him also for help concerning what is troubling me, then I release it into Gods hands and Trust that He has all under control. Learning to trust God is also something that I learned to do as i seeked to get closer and closer to God. with every little step of faith and trust I place in God and His word, He is very faithful to respond back . That is how we find out more and more that truly our Christian walk is an ongoing relationship with Him. And like with any close loving relationship there is a symbiotic back and forth communication happening along with faith, faithfulness and trust towards one another. I also sometimes listen to audio cassettes on spiritual topics. They kind of help to lull me to sleep on nights where I find it hard to get to sleep. Praying for you Hiker Mom and that God help you to release yourself into a good noght sleep, handing over all your fears and concerns onto Him and Letting Him take care of you. God Bless; 1to3 A song I like to share: God Will Take Care of You (Martin) | Civilla D. Martin Be not dismayed whate’er betide, God will take care of you; Beneath His wings of love abide, God will take care of you. Refrain: God will take care of you, Through every day, o’er all the way; He will take care of you, God will take care of you. Through days of toil when heart doth fail, God will take care of you; When dangers fierce your path assail, God will take care of you. All you may need He will provide, God will take care of you; Nothing you ask will be denied, God will take care of you. No matter what may be the test, God will take care of you; Lean, weary one, upon His breast, God will take care of you. If you google this title on you tube you will get the hymn song. God Will Take Care of You - Hymn

When I don't get sleep, I usually get a lot of prayers done in my head. so that's the one good thing abotu insomnia, they are an opportunity to turn darkness into light, which is no easy feat. But I sometimes have 5+ hour nights which are utterly exhausting and taxing on the spirit. I used to take benadryl to help me go to sleep, but it gave me nightmares, weird thoughts, and lowered by sleep quality significantly. Ever since getting off Benadryl and other sleep meds I've been sleeping MUCH better... I usually fall asleep after about 2 hours in bed, It used to be much worse, but like you say sleep meds are no long term solution. But how grateful do you feel the next morning when you actually go to sleep! Thank God for each one of those, as they are very precious. I know that feeling very well. Good quality restful sleep is too important. Anyways, be sure not to expose yourself to blue light some hours before sleep, (monitors, television), if you're using a computer there is usually a setting to enable the "night light" to go on at certain hours, which changes the monitors blue light into red/orange, and don't drink any caffeine 4 hours before bed as I read it takes about 4 hours for caffeine to flush out the system. "We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left;8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything. -- 2 Corinthians 6:3-10

I know what you mean.....this is the devil's way of trying to grind people into the ground, treating them as being of no account. Those who know the Lord are especially targeted for negation of this kind. Terrible what happens to people's hearts when Jesus is rejected out of a society.....ignorance as well as lovelessness and even cruelty has set in very quickly. Thankfully the Lord is there and we can cast our cares on Him, FOR HE CARES FOR US, even if it seems nobody else does. Sometimes that even means ESPECIALLY when nobody else does.

Without knowing details, spouse first, ministry second. People who've stepped away from a pulpit to strengthen marriage or children reap benefits and biblically, a spouse needs us as a helpmate and very few congregations or even individual congregants need us.

This would be a great topic in our inner court general discussion. After you have replied here a few time perhaps it can be moved. Some of the great evangelists also prayed for that cleansing and refilling of the Spirit, and God moved in a powerful way. So intense prayer may also be a part of it all.

Hi jlesso88. And welcome to this discussion forum. At our church, a fellowship of believers, as believers, are Holy Ghost filled. I also believe I, or anyone, can have revival, and sometimes with others also. If it is true revival, it won't be a emotional show, but an inner cleansing. I pray for this often, for our body. May God bless your enthusiasm for Him.

Stephen used the same word Church/Assembly for Israel in Mount Sinai but was this the Church God spoke of or just the patriarchs whose children would become the church? I submit that like Paul said that God's annointed have his Holy Spirit in them and this is the test of being in the Church. This would lead me to believe the Church that Christ spoke of started on Pentecost but was spoke of throughout the Old Testament. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I believe the Church begain on the day of Penticost when the Apostles first recieved the Holy Spirit and thus first came to the real understanding of the Gospel message of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Ok, here is your interpretation as promised. Your dream is about walking with Jesus “side by side” in times of persecution. It starts with you walking “up” a sidewalk with Him, which you describe later in the dream as being a “fairly steep incline.” This communicates that walking with Him is an “uphill climb,” meaning one should expect it to be “marked by difficulty, or strong resistance.” (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/uphill, see #3). - That you “couldn’t hear what was being said” means even you yourself were not ready to hear this strong message quite yet, though He was walking with you and wanting to communicate it to you. - The "city streets, businesses, and buildings," yet with “no traffic nor people anywhere” represents the fact that few are walking with Him in persecution, despite that many should be in your part of the world. - The time of day is dusk, when the sun is going down = This is Very important. It means darkness is coming, and with it persecution will ensue. - The three Golden Crosses again symbolize joining with Christ in His crucifixion, and the golden rays represent the glory of God that results from doing so (Philippians 2:3-10). When we join with Christ in His crucifixion, we do not take any glory upon ourselves, we merely share with Him in His. This is why the rays of the largest cross (i.e. Christ’s) penetrate the other two. Paul once taught that our light afflictions work for us a far more exceeding weight of glory (2 Corinthians 4:17), yet in another place he said he was bearing in his body the marks of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:17), and therefore merely filling up His afflictions (Colossians 1:24), thereby giving all the glory to Christ rather than himself. This is the basic meaning of your dream. Please feel free to ask questions, and God bless. In Christ, Hidden

An evil conscience is one that knows it has fallen short. The yardstick is still the Lord's Perfection. Purification can only come from Him who made us. My point is: without the Lord, we can have no conscience - good or bad. Ultimately, the Lord High God (Yahweh) is the measure of anything - seen or unseen.