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No.. Jesus gave the signs that we should be looking out for.. And told us when we saw those signs to raise up our heads Luke 21: KJV 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." I would encourage everyone to read the chapter up to this verse and read about the signs that Christians will be seeing.. So the scriptures are true, no one will know the day or the hour but true followers of the LORD Jesus Christ will know the times.. They will not be caught like a thief in the night.. 1 Thessalonians 5:KJV "2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. {5} Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. {6} Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Ogner the best way to accomplish that goal is to forgive those that have treated you with indifference. Stop carrying water for satan and give him a heartache instead. Embrace those that treat you with indifference turn them about with your unmerited kindness. Praise God as you do that. Kill 'em with kindness and praise God. It is like getting double portions, plus you will find your own countenance making you grin like a Cheshire cat. From Proverbs 25 ....If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.

Agreed, but I'd like to add something that's found in Acts 19, where Paul starts preaching in Ephesus. He preached the Word and folks got saved and in Acts 19:19 we see that lives were changed when they had that occult book burning. A lot of folks must have converted because by the time you get to Acts 19:24 some of the metal smiths are irate because their idol business was impacted and they started a riot. This example tells me a few things: Christ changes hearts, which will then cause changed behavior. Part of the answer is prayer, but the other part is to preach the gospel in every day life. Only Jesus can change a heart.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-7-1-5.htm

Standards? Perfection. Good luck achieving it without the blood of Christ. If you are trying to be good enough, you're doing it wrong.

So when you judge others by a similar bad standard you wish God to judge you by that bad standard too... If you ask God to have no mercy or love or justice upon others you must accept the same standards upon yourself ,, right??? It would be Hypocrisy to ask God to judge us with love and mercy and at the same time ask Him to judge others without love or mercy... Correct?

If you are a member of the Body of Christ, God placed the judgement that you deserve on His Son....in exchange you got His Righteousness.....pretty good deal.....I hope you are a part of His Body ,

The problem is not privilege per se, but rather that there is no basis for a pretrib rapture privilege. Jesus said that in the world we would have tribulation, and that we are not greater than our Master. They persecuted Him, they'll persecute us. That has held true down through the centuries, from one degree to another, since the beginning of the new covenant and there's no scriptural basis for a privileged few who are exempt.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Marilyn, I'm sorry, but nothing that Jesus, John, or Paul says gives any indication that there will be many turning to Christ during the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. In fact, all that they say makes it very clear that the opposite will be happening. Many shall be departing from the faith. There are at least four reasons that many will not be coming to Christ in the great tribulation. Please note that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the last seven years of this age, a time we call Daniel's seventieth week. This time will be characterized by the domination and persecution of the saints of God by the Beast, the False Prophet and those that follow the Beast. In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus spoke much about this future period of unprecedented persecution. Matthew records Christ's details of the unparalleled "trouble" (Dan 12:1) beginning in Matt 24 verse 9. Christ continues speaking in the context of that period until verse 29. 1) Violent persecution will cause many to fall away Jesus says that after the beginning of sorrows violent persecution would come upon His followers (my name's sake) and that we would be hated by all nations Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. The "therefore" in verse 15 connects it back to verses 9-14. Beginning in verse 15, Jesus provides more detail concerning the unprecedented nature of this future persecution of the elect. He references Dan 9:27 for its starting point. He says that the persecution will be unprecedented (vs 21). He says that the period of unprecedented persecution will threaten to extinguish the elect from the earth (vs 22). He says that the days of this unparalleled persecution will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (vs 22). Note that this persecution will not only be focused upon Christians, those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ, but also upon the inhabitants of Judaea (Israel) (Matt 24:16, 20). Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The result of this persecution and hatred would cause many to be offended, that is, fall away from the faith. Those who apostatize will hate and betray the saints. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. It should be noted that Jesus said in the parable of the soils (Matt 13), that those who received the Word with Joy into the stony ground were offended when persecution came. The meaning of offended in this context is to depart from the faith. They gladly embraced the Gospel until there was a cost associated with their identification with Christ, at which point they fell away. Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 2) Rather than many coming to Christ many will fall away due to the great deception of the false prophets and the false Christ's. That deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Paul reiterated Christ's teaching concerning an apostasia (a departure from the faith), at least, in part, caused by signs and lying wonders 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Jesus says that His arrival at His coming will be unmistakable. So don't believe men's false reports. He says that the unprecedented persecution would be over when the cosmic sign is witnessed, for that heralds His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels to gather His elect to Himself. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Please take notice that "the tribulation of those days" in context is the unprecedented persecution that Jesus calls great tribulation in verse 21. 3) It is implied by Christ that when He comes there will be few if any believers left upon the earth. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? John describes that he sees the martyred saints crying out for vengeance at the opening of the fifth seal. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. They are told that they would have to wait a little season for vengeance to come. Paul describes the vengeance coming at Christ's revelation, the very day that the church rests from persecution. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 4) Paul said that God would be sending strong delusion to those who believed not the truth, the context being the period of time around Christ's arrival. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. There are only a few references that lend to any being saved during the great tribulation. These being saved are the remaining Gentiles added to the body of Christ (the fulness of the gentiles), and all Israel (the third remaining who will be brought through the fire and refined). Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: The fact that the Gospel continues to be preached until the end of the age provides an indication that some will be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Hallelujah

Matthew 1:24-25 which you have quoted above says that Joseph knew her (Mary) not until she brought forth her first born son. "knew her not" means Joseph didn't have sexual relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. Anyone reading that Scripture verse should clearly see that Mary did not remain a virgin.

Hi, First you did not forget. But, The opening thread post concluded with the answer. Prayer! Pray without failing, pray that God will stop the abusers, protect the children, and that He will use His many angels as the vehicles for stopping the horror that is their debauchery. The "people" can indeed be turned about to their repentance of their sin against God and against children. They can indeed also be eliminated by God and by His angels, and if given His command to do so eliminated by saints within the laws of each land too. It is necessary to read the word of God as each also prays and thinks on what to do seeking guidance from the comforter and living His command as it is received.

Who does not love those that love them? What glory is there in that? If I hold no mercy nor forgiveness for another that that has trespassed ( sinned against me), that is their total punishment. I have taken up the mantle reserved for God. Better for me to forgive that sin against me seven times seventy times, and let God deal with others as He deems fit to do, in light of my own prayer that they be forgiven, and that others will also forgive me. May it be that I appreciate our Lord Jesus covering my sin, paying the price of them in full so that I am seen by God the Father as white as snow, found to be mature in the Lord. The Lord's Prayer “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

As I write this, we have been reading the Book of Luke. I thought it might interest some of you, to see what it was like, if you were a protestant of means, able to afford one of those new fangled things called a printed Bible. Some people refer the the King James Bible, as the authorized version. It was an authorized version, authorized by the King, and the translation was completed in 1611. This authorization was for the Church of England. While the Church of England was not Roman Catholic, neither was it properly protestant church. The King James Version, was commissioned, in part, to counteract the Bible popular with protestants, to help make it easier to maintain the religious hierarchy of the Church of England. The protestants were too critical of the Church of England for the Kinds tastes, so a new version was commissioned for use in the churches of the Church of England. Basically, the Church of England, was protesting the protestants. While the KJV is an "authorized version" it was the third authorize version. Prior to it, was the Bishops Bible, of 1568, and before that, was the Great Bible, of 1535. The King James version, as was said, is AN authorized version. It was not given the title of "The Authorized Version", until 1814. Lest you get the impression, that I am anti King James Version, I am not. I love the King James Version, and it has been EXTREMELY important in church history. It is a good version. There was a faction of the Church of England, known as the Puritans. They were not called the Puritans, because they were so pure and holy, though that is how many have come to think of that term. The Puritans, were about purging or purefying the church, not just of the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church, but also from issues of having a church, run by a monarch. The Puritans believed that the Church of England, was still too "Catholic" in it's operation. The puritans believed in the priesthood of all believers, not an appointed caste of Popes and Bishops and the like. This did not earn them the admiration of Kings and Popes, so they were persecuted and exiled. They were protestants, in most senses of the word. The Bible of choice, among the Puritans, was the Geneva Bible. The Geneva Bible, was the first Bible to have chapter and verse numbers, and it was translated in 1560. It was carried on the Mayflower to America, and it was the most popular English Bible, during the period of the Protestant Reformation. Why this abbreviated history lesson on early English Bible versions? I wanted you to see how easy you have it. Bibles were not often in the hands of common people. The belief of the reformers, that the Bible should be available to all, and the invention of the printing press, was the beginning of the process that lead to mass Bible access. If you were a well off Protestant, over 400 years ago, what would you have seen? Here is page of a Bible (the Geneva Bible), that was printed in English, before the King James Version.

Sure thing. And I'm going to use that train analogy in the future. It's a perfect encapsulation of the idea.

Thanks. I have no problem with your explanation here. I'm glad you took the time to elaborate.

It walks the fine line between judging people and judging their actions. If we were in India, I'd give to panhandlers all the time. Here in the US it's different. My rule: I don't give to someone unless I know their story. I consider it good stewardship.

Yes. I pray for them like I said.

I like to say I judge nobody, but I catch myself doing it all the time. Sometimes it is appropriate - e.g. I don't give money to panhandlers. I don't think they would be good stewards of the money. But when I judge other drivers for being too cautious (I'm a very "assertive" driver), I should not be judging them. We all bring different skills to the table and they have as much of a right on the road as I do. It's actually forced me to learn patience, and when I DO catch myself judging them, I stop doing it. BTW, I got 148,000 miles out of my first brake pads and they still had about 1/16" left. Brakes are for chickens.

"I don't judge anyone." Ogner, you are lying to yourself. You are judging those who you complain are judging you right now. You need to sit back, take a deep breath, and see things for what they are, not what your emotions are telling you. This is a trick of the evil one, to get you riled up and quote scripture in self righteousness instead of righteousness. It happens to all of us, but we are responsible to realize and correct it by asking for forgiveness. Otherwise it to easily can become a habit that jeopardizes your salvation. Make a habit of forgiving those who persecute you as Jesus did. Then you KNOW you're in good company. Cheers Brother!!!

No human being judges others all the time in a perfect way... We are all faulty human beings and thus from time to time we will fall down in our own dealings with others.. The LORD Jesus told us in His sermon on the mount ::: Matthew 5: KJV 43 "¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. {44} But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Note Jesus told us to pray for them not against them... If we believe Jesus then we shall acknowledge His teachings as good and true.. So i would advise you to stop praying against those who have treated you unjustly and acknowledge to God that your prayer was not good.. Pray to God to have love and mercy on those who have shown you no love and mercy.. Give over judgement to the LORD.. He will judge with truth and if these people disbelieve Jesus and reject His Atonement then God will bring great vengeance upon them for all the injustices they have committed against others.. Trust in God, acknowledge His will always and be in the right place with God through the LORD Jesus Christ Ongar..

That isn't the argument. It's the thesis. We are trying to explore the validity of a pretrib rapture and if it's an actual event or if it exists as only an idea, an idea that perhaps has become the first class section of the Dreamliner to eternity. So it's not a conclusion that pretrib doctrine exists because of privilege, but whether the doctrine has become the table of the elite, and if that is justified or not.

Inspired teachers are one of the gifts of God......Wiser men than me have brought out things in the Bible that I would never have known......the church gave me a brain full of mush.....I thank God He guided me to teachers that were “ God Called” as opposed to self - called

Read my post more carefully, I wasn't justifying anything, just giving people something to contrast to..... many people who I have watched and listened to did not know of the history..... Also what's going on today is not even the same for it is outside marriage that is happening to day and you can't justify that in any way that I am aware of. When one calls Mohammad a child molester, needs to take into consideration that it was the customs of the time..... we have a lot of things to lay on Mohammad's shoulder that is very bad for the world, but we should not put todays norms on the past..... we would call that fake news in different situations. BTW I don't think anyone under the age of 21 should get married..... that decision is too important for the general population to decide on who to spend their life with considering how easy it is to divorce. As for my unorthodox views, you are welcome to your own views as am I and everyone else.... lets just post them all and let people decide who is wright and not badmouth each other...

An idea....keep our eyes open for what might be a child being abused in some way. Don't be afraid to contact the police if we even have a slight suspicion something might be wrong in a household, etc. People can ask to remain anonymous if we aren't sure there is a problem. But usually if we get some suspicions about someone, our instincts are usually right. It's a sick world these years, so sorry to say... Years ago I saw a man on the sidewalk intently staring up at a couple of children that were on a first floor balcony (easily reachable). When I happened to see his eyes, he had the most wierd, strange eyes I had ever seen in my life....very creepy!! Back then there were no cell phones, but I went inside and called the police about him staring at the kids and his wierd eyes. The police came and they arrested him.

I dont know about those photos he posted, but there is indeed a push among that community to legalize pedophilia. There is one who is running for congress. Or the senate. I forget which.

It will never be accepted. Most Americans hate this. Even in prison they hate it with a passion. Because it's about innocent children who need protection.

This is also the same as Matthew 24 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As to God's standard, it is perfection. and, none are perfect as each has fallen short! It is by Jesus alone, His sacrifice on the cross, His resurrection and ascension, that any are saved. Those known from before the beginning and given to Jesus the God Shepherd who does not lose a one.

Are we not to watch for the signs as given in Mark 13? We don't know the day or hour but we are supposed to know the season.

Amen brother.....I believe this is exactly right.....and this is that which we are seeing now.

And look what the adversary OF GOD did unto the people by using evil men. Using physcologies , in the world , in schools and worse in churches . For they said come let us change ABSOLUTE TRUTH into a liquid , THEN let us change that liquid into WHAT WE DESIRE IT TO BE . Got so bad now , most even in churches NO LONGER even know the foundation and what it stands for , they GOT NOTHING TO STAND ON but sand . The enemy DID THIS . and the people loved to have it so . AND NOW A GRIEVIOUS HEAVY DELUSOIN sweeps the land . Heavy for it sets not the people free but has them in bondage and leads them only into further bondage . Grievious , because a heavy price will be paid . First the weapon will come full force , WHEN ONCE THE DELUSION has risen to the full, and then the weapon will sweep with fury against those who were quite in the land . With great fury will it strike at the lambs and many will be killed . THEN the weapon too will have its end and all who partook of its delusion , DESTROYED WITHOUT HAND , at the COMING of the LORD . AND all this , for the land , peoples , and worst of all many churches , REFUSED REPENTANCE , REJECTED THE TRUTH , and chose willfull pleasure IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

I agree satan or one of his demonic minions Since satan wants to be worshipped as God and the beast will demand to be worshipped as God on earth i would say satan will probably personally possess the beast himself..

Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, Rom 11:31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

According to Romans 9:31-33, I think we can not earn God plan just like these people, trying to get right with God by keeping his laws. We may think that Church attendance, church work, giving offerings and being nice will be enough, after all we have played by the rules, haven't we? But Paul words sting this approach never succeeds. Paul explains that God plan is not for those who try to earn his favour by being good. Its for those who realize they can never be good enough and so must depend on Christ. Only by putting our faith in what Jesus Christ has done will we be saved. If we do that, we will never be disappointed (Ashamed )

I didn't know that people who come to trouble and confuse believers who are trying to identify and warn about idolatry and spiritual death in a certain institution that calls itself by the name of Christ......are going to get a crown. How is God going to reward someone who comes to confuse and cloud an issue that is leading souls to hell? Not with a crown I expect. There is nothing clever about what you are doing, it's just dangerous for you and your hearers. For your own good, please believe me when I say that what you are doing is wrong, and that you've got the wrong end of the stick.

. Gen 5:6-8 6 And Seth lived one hundred and five years, and became the father of Enosh. 7 Then Seth lived eight hundred and seven years after he became the father of Enosh, and he had other sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. NASB And 14 years later Noah was born..... Did you know that Methuselah was nearly 250 years old when Adam died? Methuselah lived about 600 years when Noah lived Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died and Shem lived longer than did Abraham by about 35 years...

The false prophet and the beast are Men indeed.. And i believe they translated it into the correct English.. So it's a basic case of total disagreement here..

That is another good post and reading my ESV (easier to read) got me through the stage you are in. English Standard Version is quite literal but it is easier to read than the thou's and thee's in the King James Version. Get a small ESV with only Gospels, Psalms and Proverbs in it and take it round with you. Learn to enjoy coffee whilst dwelling in the Word. I dont know if you have to go through what you are going through as the reason that I went through that stage is because I did not have wisdom back then. So if I encourage you to get into doing three Proverbs (wisdom literature) a day and praying for a spirit of wisdom when you might actually find this season much much easier. Get support from Christian's that you can see are loving. Thout should have fun Bro too Try listening to Peter Furler

Why reassess a friendship? Why not be friend to all without insisting on a balancing return? "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?" Love Your Enemies Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It is different in the PreTrib doctrine. While a certain group of believers in Jesus stake their hopes on "We are not appointed to wrath" and determine a rapture must then occur before tribulation begins, there is another group of believers in Jesus that must endure the pouring out of wrath during tribulation. This is not possible if "We are not appointed to wrath" is truth. No believer will see God's wrath. To reconcile this we all must conclude that tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. Scripture is clear. Wrath begins at the 6th seal. Not before. What comes before is never referred to as the wrath of God. Only what comes after the 6th seal is God's wrath. The question is, "Why does Pretrib get to escape under the umbrella of "We are not appointed to wrath" when a large group of believers in Jesus do not?" You do realize, according to PreTrib doctrine, every person that comes to the saving grace of the Father by the blood of Jesus during the tribulation must immediately endure God's wrath? Do you really believe the one who saves immediately casts the saved into the cauldron of the Savior's fierce anger? Ludicrous. And, exactly what pretrib seeks to escape.

Wasn't the goal. We know believers are in the tribulation. If tribulation is God's wrath that's not possible. "We are not appointed to wrath." That's for ALL believers. It's not just for Pretrib believers. So again, "Why does a subset of the believers in Jesus get to escape wrath when another subset does not?"

Short Answer. No.. longer answer. as follows.. To be saved a person needs to be saved by Someone else.. That's why we call it being saved... We are saved by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. His Atonement pays the penalty which is upon all imperfect human beings.. The penalty upon all imperfect human beings is a death sentence.. We call it the second death in the eternal lake of fire.. So it does not matter if one person scores 50% in the, being a good person Olympics, and another persons scores 90% .. Both people need Atonement because neither of them scores 100% The Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ covers the person who scores 50% the same as it covers the person who scored 90%.. On the day of Judgement they will be both deemed to have a perfect 100% score because they believed Jesus and trusted in the payment Jesus made on the cross for all their transgressions against Gods will.. Christians are saved not because they are good people .. Christians are saved because they are bad people who have been forgiven.. As Jesus said ""Only God is Good""

Gentiles found Jesus and received salvation (righteousness, cleansing from sin) by faith (trusting Jesus alone for salvation). My Jewish people were/are attempting to find righteousness by works (good deeds, following Mosaic laws, following talmudic practice, etc.)

Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, and Acts 16:31 make it clear that the answer is no.

Instead of being dismissive of this verse which clearly defines the bride of Christ, Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9-10 why not use it to enhance your understanding of the bride of Christ? If what you pursue is the truth, then you're going to have to let go of the teachings of men when they come in conflict with the clear statements of the Bible. Looking at the description of the holy city Jerusalem we see the following: It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:12-14 According to the truth revealed in Revelation 21 about the bride of Christ, we know for sure that the bride is not exclusively a new covenant reference. Are you going to reject Revelation 21's definition of the bride, or are you going to embrace it instead of the teachings of men? What say you?

Yes, but I think the point was there is subset of believers that latch onto this pretrib idea and then feel it does not apply to the rest of the greater group. I feel you said as much when you claim that our personal beliefs on the matter will determine participation in a pretrib event, "but the reason they didn't escape the tribulation is because they failed to watch for the Lord's return and didn't believe the warnings.". This is an oft repeated idea and is simply not the case. Born again in the blood of the Lamb, confessing the name of Jesus, resisting the world in the Spirit of power and truth, love, is what determines our place in the kingdom. Good examples but incorrect conclusion. It's not danger from which Noah and Lot were removed, it was God's wrath. Noah was 100 years building the ark. Now we don't know the details but we can surmise facts in Holmesian fashion. A wooden boat on dry land that surpasses apparent need for a century. There would be questions. And this thing is 450' long, the people would have thought him mad. What kind of persecution did Noah and his family endure for 100 years? Sabotage? Mockery? Threats? Physical violence? All of the above and more no doubt. Lot was removed moments before God's wrath came upon the city, not from 'danger'. " 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—" I agree. I too desire every privilege that God bestows on the faithful. What I cannot abide is a set within a whole taking privilege for themselves over the rest of the whole. But being watchful isn't going to do it. We watch because we are expectantly waiting on the return of the Lord Jesus because the Spirit of God within us longs for His kingdom; the Spirit is what gives us our place in heaven, not being watchful. We watch because we are Spirit filled and saved, we are not saved because we watch. The highlighted portion cannot be true. I wish just one person would acknowledge the issue here. The response it usually something like what you say, "Many Christians will be left behind to go through the tribulation. ", "the reason they didn't escape the tribulation is because they failed to watch for the Lord's return ", when it's well understood there are believers during GT.This isn't the point. Why are they in GT at all? The real issue is the insistence that wrath=GT, 70th week, judgment. Pretrib uses this to escape GT, 70th, judgment, but it's not for everyone. Only those who 'believe in a pretrib rapture' are going to be taken in a pretrib rapture. The rest of the poor souls who believe otherwise, and those who are born again during the 70th week, have to endure God's wrath through GT and judgment.

Good answers folks, for an important question and you should realise that you are never condemned, you are a child of God: God might convict you sometimes if He wants you to think about something but He will never condemn you, that stuff is from the enemy - learn to recognise the difference between conviction and condemnation: Conviction helps you to think about what you have done wrong and then builds you up. Condemnation always pushes you down. I get a lot of assurance issues (doubt) and I find that the best remedy for it is serving God: Try just doing something easy (and fun) like baking cookies for your neighbours - lol it works though. If things are tough then just do one good thing a day and you will see what I mean ?

Anxiety and doubt aren't sins. Doubting God is a sin, we aren't even supposed to look at the newspaper horoscope. In the old days that was a super sin. Do you mean that you know God can solve your problem, you just don't know if He will? That's common and it's not a sin. Anxiety can be (not always) an evil spirit. It's usually a weak one. Try rebuking it. First call it, say You spirit of anxiety I bind and rebuke you in the name of Jesus, leave me, get out of here. If it comes back rebuke it again. Anxiety can also be a medical issue. I need meds but finding a doc is hard.

Mar 9:23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things arepossible to him who believes.” Mar 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” Early on I learned to praise God in all circumstances, especially during fear and doubt. It reminds me that God is still in control.

Either we choose Christ as our Lord and Savior now and bow to Him, or we will be forced to do so at the great white throne judgement. It will be too late at that time. Heb 9:27b NKJV but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Believers will not be at the great while throne judgement. Our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and we will be judged according to the good works He has done through us in this life. Our sins are already blotted out with His blood, so only the good remains to be judged. Romans 1 says that all know about God through nature. Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. There will be no more chances for unbelievers to be saved. Most are not saved because of their pride and the hardness of their hearts. That is very hard to hear. It should motivate us to share God's love for sinners with all that we know.