Pre trib rapture is fake

[SINNERSAVED]

7 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

"at the risk of stirring up a firestorm..."  

"I am ready to take that risk Bob"

"Contestant, is that your final answer?"

"That is my final answer." 

nice , you go girl.  .lol

[Reinitin]

49 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Having checked back through the posts, I found no one who "call[ed you] a false teacher and a lukewarm christian saying [you] deny the truth because [you] say the word rapture isn't in the bible." Please provide evidence for this accusation, or apologize for it.

As far as saying the word Rapture isn't in the Bible, what is the point? Other than to stir up contention. The principle behind the word is certainly a biblical doctrine, so why even make any issue about the word?

Because many people on this website move their nasty comments to messaging. I don't know what the point of it was other then christians not being taught in the Word. I just said I'm pan trib cause I don't have a conviction from scripture that leans pre, mid or post.

 What is important to me is knowing Christ.

I have studied all of them and they all have interesting perspectives, I actually have studied eschatology in greek, hebrew and aramaic and i've known for decades paul used harpazo for catching up.  But the Spirit never kicked in and starting bringing scriptures to my mind to show me the Lords plan. But, when i study rapture doctrine the Holy Spirit reminds me of clear spoken scripture that refutes pre trib rapture and preterism. I got blasted cause I said  something like rapture isn't even in the bible. 

Then the little click on here including you started to try to make an issue of rapture not being in the bible and an issue of something out everything I said. totally ignoring the doctrine of how the Lord instructs us to administer His word to people. Honestly, I've been a Christ walking in christian almost 50 years so it doesn't bother me a bit,  except that I could be a babe in Christ and the behavior is not sound doctrine.

[hmbld]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

 I see many of our wiser elders on this board ridiculed for teaching sound doctrine, and/or accused of being "unloving." And at the risk of stirring up a firestorm, I have seen that women are often the chief accusers along this line.

Contending for the faith, and sound rebuke, should never be presumed to be unloving: quite the contrary. Railing accusations are another matter.

 

Say what?  Many proclaim how "elder" they are, like it gives them an excuse to be harsh.  I can learn sound doctrine from this kind of elder, though it is hard to not just skip over the entire post.  The whole attitude of "my harshness is not harsh because I'm right" is used too much.  I'll just leave the "railing accusation" in your post alone.  

[Kindle]

rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

²⁶ But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. ²⁷ So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ ²⁹ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

First it seems reasonable logical  that Mt 24:21 and Rev 7:14 are referring to the same event.
Though Matthew 24 speaks of "great tribulation" rather than "THE great tribulation",  it says that the tribulation it is referring to is the greatest that will ever be. That and given the context of Mt 24, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to The Great Tribulation. Thus I believe we can conclusively say that these verses are referring to the same event.

Mt 24:29 immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2Thess 2 refers to the coming of the Lord in which Paul believed he and the early Church would be "gathered to him". Notice the phrase "our being gathered to him".He indicates that their being gathered to the Lord would not occur until after the antiChrist is revealed and after the apostacy (Yes it's literally "apostasia" in the Greek) Jesus alluded to the apostacy in Mt 24:10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other." And consistent with 2Thess, Jesus continues in Mt 24 by speaking about the antiChrist, all of which constitute elements of the great tribulation. Then Jesus speaks of the gathering in Mt 24:31  "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." But if Paul was talking about a different gathering which occurred prior to these events then he would have simply told the Thessalonians that the reason why they should know that gathering hadn't occur is because they had not been raptured. This proves that the rapture/resurrection of which Paul anticipated for himself and the early church would occur after the tribulation had started, and as such disproves a pre-trib rapture.

Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (And Peter quotes this in Acts 2 as applying to the church) And 2Thess 2:2,3 "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Since the raptures occurs on the day of the Lord, and since the day of the Lord doesn't start until after events associated with the great tribulation occur - the rebellion/apostacy, the revealing of the antiChrist, the sun turned to darkness - this disproves the idea of a pre-trib rapture.

We clearly see that the day which Jesus is referring to occurs after the great tribulation mention in Mt 24:29, and yet he uses the same kind of phrase - not knowing that day, and like a thief - which pre-tribbers allege only could refer to a pre-trib day. Secondly notice that while Paul describes the day of the Lord as a thief in the night, he also says, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1Thess 5:4 Therefore "thief in the night" aspect of the coming of the Lord only applies to the unprepared - to those who don't keep themselves alert.

Despite the fact that the Day of the Lord in which the rapture occurs comes post-trib it will nonetheless come as a surprise on the unprepared. But how can it be a surprise? First of all is the strong delusion which God sends, "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." 2Thess 2:11 Secondly Jesus mentions in Luke 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap."

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by worthy

[Esther4:14]

4 hours ago, Reinitin said:

Honestly, I've been a Christ walking in christian almost 50 years so it doesn't bother me a bit,  except that I could be a babe in Christ and the behavior is not sound doctrine.

 

I can tell that you have many years of experience as a Christian.  You have such strength behind what you have to say.  I really enjoy your posts and I am very sorry to hear that people are continuing these conversations in the form of private messaging.  That would be terrible if something like this was happening to someone new to the faith.  Just thinking about it really upsets me, but I really just wanted to point out what you said about how there is behavior that is not sound doctrine.  I find it to be such a concise way of reflecting on the reality that sound doctrine should affect the way we behave.  Take care.  

And, moving back to the topic of the thread.  I personally find that rapture theory is promoted through fear, which was the first error I found with it.  They make the fulfillment of prophecy sound like this terrifying culmination of everything written in Revelation happening all at once and many people become afraid of this.  Then, no one thinks they would be able to overcome the final steps in the fulfillment of prophecy without necessitating a rapture taking place before this.  Rapture theory is a fear based interpretation of prophecy.  

[Reinitin]

1 minute ago, Esther4:14 said:

 

I can tell that you have many years of experience as a Christian.  You have such strength behind what you have to say.  I really enjoy your posts and I am very sorry to hear that people are continuing these conversations in the form of private messaging.  That would be terrible if something like this was happening to someone new to the faith.  Just thinking about it really upsets me, but I really just wanted to point out what you said about how there is behavior that is not sound doctrine.  I find it to be such a concise way of reflecting on the reality that sound doctrine should affect the way we behave.  Take care.  

And, moving back to the topic of the thread.  I personally find that rapture theory is promoted through fear, which was the first error I found with it.  They make the fulfillment of prophecy sound like this terrifying culmination of everything written in Revelation happening all at once and many people become afraid of this.  Then, no one thinks they would be able to overcome the final steps in the fulfillment of prophecy without necessitating a rapture taking place before this.  Rapture theory is a fear based interpretation of prophecy.  

I totally agree sister we can have confidence in our Lord.. Thank you for your encouragement.  We have not been given a spirit of fear but one of power, love and a sound mind.

Yes, there is way more solid, clear doctrine (teaching) about our (behavior) and the paths of developing fruit of the Spirit in the word then there is on the tribulation. Also we know those in Christ by the fruit of the Spirit not their eschatology belief.

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Reinitin said:

On 3/20/2016 at 2:31 PM, Reinitin said:

Ezra Rapture isn't in the bible and people are brain washed.

...the little click on here including you started to try to make an issue of rapture not being in the bible...

No, get your facts straight. I responded only after you and sinnersaved began to make an issue of it. Stirring up contention from what should have been a non-issue over a word.

13 hours ago, hmbld said:

Many proclaim how "elder" they are, like it gives them an excuse to be harsh.

The true elders on this board show it by their works and their evidence of laboring in the Word, not by proclaiming themselves to be elders.

One person's "harsh" is another person's firmness. Nowadays, the Church has sunk so low that saying sodomy is a sin is said to be a harsh judgment, and we should all be loving and accepting. Likewise on this board, there have been many thin-skinned people who whine and play the victim whenever someone critiques their beliefs. Whereas the true elders have shown themselves able to stridently contend and debate without having hurt feelings afterwards, and not hold grudges and whine. These people should be respected, not personally attacked.

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, worthy said:

rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Worthy, your whole post was an excellent summary; with one exception, that being the above: equating Paul's "last trumpet" with the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.

This is a rational argument, but not a conclusive one: the two occasions are not necessarily the same. Paul may well have had something else in mind, since he was not aware at the time he wrote 1 Corinthians about the contents of the Revelation. Here is one alternative, excerpted from the article "The Last Shofar" on my website --

     There is an ancient Hebrew prophetic legend about the horns of the ram that Abraham offered to God "for a burnt offering instead of his son Isaac." Gen. 22:13  ...
     Now, the prophetic legend about the former ram says that Abraham cut off its two horns, and made trumpet-horns -- shofars -- from them. These horns were cut off from the crown of the head of the Ram of Redemption. The legend says that the lesser of these two Redemption-shofars was blown first, when the LORD descended before his gathered people on Mount Sinai, early in the Exodus:
 
Then it came to pass on the third day...that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet [Hebrew: shofar] exceeding loud...and the whole mount quaked greatly. And the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai...  Exodus 19:16, 18, 20
 
     ...Now, according to the prophecy, the greater of the two ram's/Redeemer's horns will be blown last, at the End of the World (Age). It shall announce the Judgment of God, the Kingdom of the Messiah, the Gathering of Israel, the Resurrection of the dead, and the Redemption of Earth from sin and evil. Perkei Rabbi Eliezer 31; Rosh HaShanah 11b Therefore, it is the Latter or Last Shofar.
 

Paul's Prophecy about the Last Trumpet/Shofar

     The Apostle Paul, before his conversion, was a rabbinical scholar "brought up at the feet of" the famous rabbi Gamaliel. Acts 5:34; 22:3 Paul undoubtedly learned this legend in his studies. Also, because those days were filled with messianic expectations (Lk. 3:15), the prophecy would have been publicly known and discussed.
     These things lead us to Paul's famous prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 about the resurrection of the dead:
 
We shall not all sleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [Note: New Testament Greek has no separate term to distinguish a ram's horn/shofar from a metal horn.]
 
Paul later gave more details about this event:
 
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thes. 4:16-17
 
     Now, some people claim that this "Last Trumpet," blown to announce the Lord's descent (as did the trumpet-shofar on Mount Sinai), is the Seventh (angel-blown) Trumpet of Revelation 11:15. However, there is no evidence in any of Paul's epistles that he ever had any knowledge of the contents of the Book of Revelation. Also, Paul mentions THE Last (not Seventh) Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15 without explanation, clearly presuming that his audience understood what he meant. (Paul was not shy about explaining things.) The ancient prophecy of the first and last shofars had undoubtedly been passed on to the Corinthian Church by Paul and other Jewish elders, because the Church in those days was expecting the Lord's coming soon.

The Added Witness of Hebrews 12:18-28

     Paul gave a third prophecy that strongly indicates the Last Shofar legend to be the one alluded to in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4. In Hebrews 12:18-28, Paul directly relates and compares the event at Mount Sinai to the Second Coming of Christ and Rapture of the Church:
 
For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire [= Sinai], and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet [the shofar of Ex. 19]...but you are come to [heavenly] Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect, [and] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant... Heb. 12:18-19, 22-24

     Notice the direct contrast between 1) the earthly Mount Sinai at the assembling of carnal Israel on Earth, and 2) the heavenly Mount Zion at the assembling of the sanctified Church in heaven.

[Reinitin]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

No, get your facts straight. I responded only after you and sinnersaved began to make an issue of it. Stirring up contention from what should have been a non-issue over a word.

The true elders on this board show it by their works and their evidence of laboring in the Word, not by proclaiming themselves to be elders.

One person's "harsh" is another person's firmness. Nowadays, the Church has sunk so low that saying sodomy is a sin is said to be a harsh judgment, and we should all be loving and accepting. Likewise on this board, there have been many thin-skinned people who whine and play the victim whenever someone critiques their beliefs. Whereas the true elders have shown themselves able to stridently contend and debate without having hurt feelings afterwards, and not hold grudges and whine. These people should be respected, not personally attacked.

Go back before ezra before omega man's rant.. I gave my honest opinion on the posts statement of pre trib being fake. all that stuff is just me trying to explain why I am ok just trusting it will pan out as the Lord wills and responding with the word to there negative opinions of my stance as they started taking my words out of context. Which is exactly how false teachers work. Saying rapture isn't in the bible had nothing to do with trib doctrine I said it  because I was saying, If it was so important for me to know and fight about the Lord by His Spirit would reveal it to me in His timing. I'm trying to avoid attacking by name or bring copy out from messages. I would hope the Lord would correct the hearts of his people. If they are reading this they know what messages they sent and they know what spirit they were in when they were grabbing at my words to fight about them and they also know I posted the word about arguing over words more then once.

[Reinitin]

Plus I'm praying for them to be true witnesses and bare fruit of the Spirit.