Pre trib rapture is fake

[Last Daze]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I think the biggest problem your having is not rightly dividing the Scripture - present day persecution is from the wicked
but tribulation is from God upon the wicked and it shall be a time like no other! Ever!... above statements are truths of today.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.  James 1:5

[MorningGlory]

14 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Only because it is personal, not topical, even if unintentional. I am sorry to hear though, that you do not back away, sounds like a person who is never wrong, which, I find difficult to believe. I doubt anyone is THAT offended, my only point on this is that it is not correct to be assuming that people who disagree with you, cannot see the truth of scripture.

You pre-tribbers get insults? Pffft. No more that other positions. However, compared to 10 years ago, you do get more heat these days. Post-tribbers finally got enough courage to come out of the closet, I think they no longer feel that everyone thinks they a automatically heretics, unlike years back when even some admins called posties heretics. Pre-tribbers do not get any special victim cards to play.

I agree, more civility is needed, on several topics, and eschatology is frequently one of them. I lot of the problem is, that people come in, and launch into the topic, to show us how smart they are, or to just comment on a topic they are passionate about, not realizing that everything they are going to say, has already been said here ten times over. It spurs activity, and that get a thread noticed and the cycle repeats. We have been had different positions in the church for centuries, but it was never a huge topic for most of church history.

Of course, there was a long period where eschatology was mostly ignored theological discussion. Then we got the movement started by Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, etc. That piques come interest, but not a lot of hubbub.

Later, Darby's eschatology was incorporated into the  Scofield Reference Bible, which  was a standard in seminaries. That led to the pulpits of America, being filled with pre-tribbers, but it still was not a huge debate. Then came 1948, and the rebirth of the nation if Israel. THAT got peoples attention, and suddenly, people were becoming very interested in eschatology.

The rise of certain movements, like the Calvary Chapel denomination and it's later popular radio ministries really got things moving. Pre-tribism was then certainly in it's heyday. Their teaching and similar teachings of others, continued to increase interest in the topic, and that was so much the case, that when Hal Lindsey wrote "The Late, Great, Planet Earth", it was even a best seller among secular readers, who found the marrying of current events to Bible prophecy fascinating.

Of course all of this interest, also lead people to study and search the scriptures on  these things, and that has led people to discover, that the pre-trib rapture doctrine, is not as scripturally supported, as it had been sold. Eventually, other positions also gained popularity and respectability, and that is what you are seeing in some of these debated threads.

At least, that is my short version of the history of eschatological thought in America. You may or may not know this, but in a lot of countries, that were not developing their theology under the influence of the west, there reaction is often "pre-trib what, huh?" Not that they are necessarily posties, but they never discovered a pre-trib rapture.

No, I didn't know that the PreTrib theory isn't known in some countries.  As for never being wrong?  Oh, let me tell you, I've been wrong a million times.  What I meant there is if I'm convinced I'm right, I will stand on what I said.  I suppose I really shouldn't say that those who have other opinions just can't see clearly.  They probably DID read and read and come up with 'nope, I can't support PreTrib anymore'.  I guess I post and then think because I never meant to insult anyone; I was just looking at things from this side of my monitor.  I do believe though that, since only one theory can be correct, there are going to be a LOT of believers that are surprised when the Lord returns.  I hope pleasantly so, for everyone, but only He knows what's going to happen.

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

I do believe though that, since only one theory can be correct, there are going to be a LOT of believers that are surprised when the Lord returns.

Indeed -- both pre-tribbers and post-tribbers, and mid-tribbers and preterists.

But the unbelievers will be the most surprised of all.

Nevertheless, "Surely the LORD God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

[HAZARD]

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 1:35 PM, worthy said:

IS THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE FAKE

(Revelation 11:15 KJV) Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

(1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.5

(Matthew 24:13 KJV)But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

(Matthew 13:28-30 KJV{28} He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? {29} But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. {30} Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 

(John 17:15 KJV) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

(John 17:20 KJV) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

                     NOW WITH ALL OF THIS YOU TELL ME IF IT IS A LIE OR NOT

It is a lie!. if your interested in the truth backed by many Scriptures read on!

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Jesus said that the angels don't know when the rapture will happen, He also said that even He does not know. So if the angels don't know then Satan also doesn't know when it will happen. Only the Father knows according to Jesus.

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Jesus replied,

Mark 13:32, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

The disciples asked Jesus when will this all occur?

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

V. 5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

V. 6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

V. 7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

V. 8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

V. 9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

V. 10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

All these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

WHEN WILL IT OCCURE.

Mark 13:33, Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

V. 34, For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

V. 35, Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

V. 36, Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

V. 37, And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So when will it be? Lets forget the word "SOON." Only the Father knows, and Jesus knows this much, Jesus commands us to be ever ready, for it can happen any time!

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

No, I didn't know that the PreTrib theory isn't known in some countries.  As for never being wrong?  Oh, let me tell you, I've been wrong a million times.  What I meant there is if I'm convinced I'm right, I will stand on what I said.  I suppose I really shouldn't say that those who have other opinions just can't see clearly.  They probably DID read and read and come up with 'nope, I can't support PreTrib anymore'.  I guess I post and then think because I never meant to insult anyone; I was just looking at things from this side of my monitor.  I do believe though that, since only one theory can be correct, there are going to be a LOT of believers that are surprised when the Lord returns.  I hope pleasantly so, for everyone, but only He knows what's going to happen.

Can I quote you in this   in the Its just me thread

[JG Hemlock]

Many people interpret scripture from their 'intellect' though it is only the Holy Spirit indwelling that reveals scripture and no other way. The revelation that I have received from Yeshua is that the Harvest is not a rapture, but a gathering spiritually. The left behind theme is not true. This fib will cause many to become despondent when the rapture does not happen and they are not prepared to walk in fire - it will contribute greatly to people falling away from the faith - the great falling away. They will never consider that they were lied to or taught false teachings. They will believe that Yeshua was just a 'story.' They will take the mark of the beast. Sad really. He truly is alive.  

Believers are not subject to Great tribulation=God's wrath, but believers surely will be entering tribulation. We will be put to death, placed in jail and persecuted greatly for His name. He was speaking of believers. This IS the Harvest. It is surely not a 'rapture ride out of tribulation.'

We are to be baptized in WATER, Holy Spirit and FIRE. The Harvest will be the walk in the FIRE. This will sanctify and purify us. We should never fear the fire. Fear the one who can kill the body and the spirit. I hear many say, "I don't care of what is happening down here because the rapture is coming and I don't have to learn or prepare spiritually for tribulation because I will be gone." Tribulation is going to be very difficult for those who believe in a 'rapture' fib. It is not scriptural. It is a 3 fold Harvest gathering; Barley, Wheat and Grape Harvest - a gathering not a rapture.

But be of good cheer! He will burn the bundles first and the true believers WILL be protected. God never took the believers off the earth during judgment - but He did protect them from it. No fear! 

 

[JG Hemlock]

The Harvest is when our mission for God BEGINS not when it ENDS! God bless you all.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Our dear brother enoob said:

"I think the biggest problem your having is not rightly dividing the Scripture - present day persecution is from the wicked
but tribulation is from God upon the wicked and it shall be a time like no other! Ever!... above statements are truths of today."

My reply:

I agree that is shall be a time like no other. Let's look at that a little.

 9  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.   15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I get my idea of the Great Tribulation, that Jesus named the time period spoken to us by Daniel, that would be like no other. When I look at that passage, I see people, and the anti-christ (or at least the abomination that makes desolate) as causing the problems, doing the persecuting. I am not about to blame God as the troublemaker, sorry enoob!

There will be a time of direct judgement from God, to be sure, but that is not what Jesus called the Great Tribulation. It is possible that I am not rightly dividing the scripture. It is also possible that others are not.

[Omegaman 3.0]

10 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

No, I didn't know that the PreTrib theory isn't known in some countries.  As for never being wrong?  Oh, let me tell you, I've been wrong a million times.  What I meant there is if I'm convinced I'm right, I will stand on what I said.  I suppose I really shouldn't say that those who have other opinions just can't see clearly.  They probably DID read and read and come up with 'nope, I can't support PreTrib anymore'.  I guess I post and then think because I never meant to insult anyone; I was just looking at things from this side of my monitor.  I do believe though that, since only one theory can be correct, there are going to be a LOT of believers that are surprised when the Lord returns.  I hope pleasantly so, for everyone, but only He knows what's going to happen.

Okay, well, that strikes me a more reasonable. I also agree that only one theory can be correct (though some have theories that different theories can apply to different peoples and different times). It is also possible, that the correct theory, had not yet been expressed (except in scripture) and that none of us have it right.

For myself personally, when I read scripture, pre-trib is the one that I see that has the least scriptural support (of major, popular theories), which is why I abandoned it. I am just not comfortable with adding that much to scripture, and making so many assumptions that cannot be scripturally supported. Even that though, does not make it wrong, I will admit. It is possible that I cannot see the truth, just as you suggested.

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

It is a lie!. if your interested in the truth backed by many Scriptures read on!

Please, be careful in your choice of words. When you say something is a lie, you are saying that people who say such things, are intentionally deceiving others. Perhaps, they are deceived themselves, and are intending good, not evil. Not everything that is not true, is necessarily a lie!