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Yes i was part of herbert w armstrongs church. And Garner ted Armstrong. I was only 18 when i heard his radio program. I was already a born again christian. But i did not really know the bible too well. So i could not dercern the errors he taught. I remain with them over ten years. What i learnt was dont make a man over christ. No man has more truth then whats already in the bible. Remember what John wrote you have no need for anyone to teach you. But the annoted teaches you. . Its saying you can understand for yourself. Once your born again you already know enough to move onward in knowledge from scripture. I looked to a man as superioer in knowldge in the word. And took it for granted that he was right because he sounded so righteous. They said we were the only true church. They said armstrong was Eljah to come. And i used circular reasoning to agree at that time. The bible is our only source of truth. In it the holy spirit has raise up letters from the Apostles to point to christ. We have to go by that alone. No man has extra understanding of the scriptures then what we can already understand by the holy spirit in us. Beware of men who say most christians dont get it. Or dont walk with God. They are trying to draw followers. Some are clueless and mean well. But they are wrong. Go by the bible only.

It took time because we were taught if we left the church we were leaving christ. And if you rejected armstrong you were rejecting christ Apostle. And then christ himself. So i was afraid i would lose salvation. But over time others pointed out scriptures to me that showed me where i was in error. I learn God was a trinity. Salvation by grace through faith alone. Sabbath was for Isarel. And so many things. Also the worldwide church of God itself turn away from Armstrong and became mainstream. Hank the bible answer man had Joe Takach on his show. And they talked of the changes. A lot of people left at that time. God was doing a work to get people away from Armstrong theology. But i was saved before i was a member. A lot of people were not saved and were never saved while in that church. I could tell they did not have God during those years. While at my boyhood church i could see God there. And to top it off christ came to me in a dream when i was 18 and told me not to go with this church. In the dream i was in a great hall and everything was white. And i stood before christ and he sat on a high place before me. And he said why are you going with the worldwide church ? He then said i did not send you there. And then said they are not of me. Then i woke up. I thought about it and came to the idea that maybe satan was tricking me. So i went to this cburch anyway. God does not want anyone wasting years in a false church. Now i am so agaist false doctrines of men. We have the bible and the gospel. Lets stick with and hold on to it. God bless you.

Glad you did not keep with it. It was called tomorrows world and also the plain truth. Yes its diffrent now there a good church now. It was a work salvation gospel. They were a lot like the JW. But also like the SD too.

Gary Lee, Sorry! I am very saddened to read of the attack and murder of your AWANA friends in Christ Jesus and leaders in the wonderful ministry that teaches the young the Bible verse by verse, helping them to learn the armor of God and to use it fully.

Also I feel compelled to add. That some of them that leave as young adults, if have been given a good foundation; they return when they are older. Some when they have children of their own. Because they feel it is important that their children attend church as they did. At times through their children they come back. They come back because sickness and losses they go through. They remember because of the good foundation they were taught. And they return. Because God has never forgotten them. Jesus won't turn them away for wandering like sheep without a shepherd.

anyone have the gift of "prophetic words of knowledge"? received it today and am working on it.

NO NOT AT ALL ! LOOK TO JESUS AND BELIEVE IN HIM. All who confess Jesus and believe in him from the heart is saved. From the second you trust in his name you are saved. And God seals you with the holy spirit. Crying Abba Father. Saved by Jesus ! Not by works. Just like the children of Isarel look at the pole of a snake when they got bitten. The ones who look upon it were saved from the snake bite. They just had to believe the order to look and when they did they were saved. We have to look and trust God who said believe in my son. He who has the son has life eternal.

Well, when God talks to the churches in Revelation, consider: To the church of Ephesus- “Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:4-5 Now we can argue what removing our candlestick out of its place means, but I would not be confidant about risking my eternity on the fact I may be cut off from God. To the church of Sardis- “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Revelation 2:16,3:1-5 Whoa. A lot of truth here. 1) God is indeed looking at our works, not just our prayer of salvation. He expects fruit. 2) As to walking with Him in white, a prayer of salvation guarantees nothing. It is those who have not defleid their garments who will be deemed worthy of doing so. 3) perhaps the most eye opening, He wrote our names into the lamb’s book of life, and He can blot the out. To the church of Laodecia- “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.” Revelation 3:15-16, 19 God looks at the treasure in our hearts, and whether or not we are passionate fro Him above all else, including us. Throw in verses like Paul’s “I keep my body under lest after preaching to others, I myself might become a castaway.” and “He that endure to the end, the same shall be saved.” and “Behold the goodness and the severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards tho goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise thou also shall be cut off” And what do we make of this? Is there any other interpretation other than the truth they we can indeed lose our salvation if our eyes are not fixed on Jesus? Now with that said, how can we have peace and assurance if that is so? How do we avoid what seems like the only logical alternative if these verses be true? And what is that? That we must work for our salvation, which is legalism, which definitelly is not the answer. How do we avoid turning the grace of God into lasciviousness on one hand, or drifting to the other extreme of making our salvation legalistic works we must do our we will be cut off? There is a way where there is no conflict between faith alone and faith plus works. There is a place where we have total security? Where we do produce fruits... guaranteed. Where we keep our eyes fixed on Him, no matter the situation. It is the place of which I have been sharing. And what is this place? Putting on our new nature by faith alone. Why is this the answer that gives us the assurance we need, and as well, insures we walk pleasing to Him in full obedience? Because when we have reckoned our old nature as dead, and by faith believed we are new creatures, it is in this amazing place that God causes us to obey Him, to stay close t oHim, to always grow up into Him in all things. There is ZERO security as long as we are walking in our old natures. Why? Because the real danger of sin is that is hardens hearts and can choke out faith. We may be able to walk just fine,in our opinion, as long as the weather is fine. But there are storms on the horizon. When it comes to feeding our families, if the persecution arises where in order to continue working to put food on the table, we must deny God, will we? Will we reason that God loves our family and wants us to be good parents and anyway, He forgives our sin so if we deny Him in order to survive, He will forgive us like He always has before, so denying Him is no biggie, because He knows we really love Him.... right? Those who take the mark of the beast will suffer the plagues. I pray we get that. And will we reason that we are not destined of wrath so we will be raptured and do not have to worry about that, may I remind you that there are Christians today in other countries who are facing those choices today? Today. Why would anyone not want to walk in all that God has for Him? Why would we cling to our “old way is better” mantra, refusing to believe there is a place in Him where He really does keep us from falling just as He clearly promised. People wonder why I say we have all been asleep. We have walked in the God who forgives us, and yet have refused to believe that He is also the God who changes us into His likeness, causing us t booth will and do of His good pleasure. Trusting our own determination to not deny the Lord is dangerous indeed. Trusting that He will forgive any sin we commit in the future whether or not we even repent of it, is simply buying into the biggest lie Satan has hoisted on us. We NEED brand new natures that never stray. He will open up our blind eyes to the truth that His salvation provides them for us, if we will simply admit the we want them and need them desperately. Why would anyone wait, unless it is simply because we do not want to give up control of OUR lives. As I said, we are needing our valley of decision. Blessings, Gideon

I don't do health insurance since the day Obamacare became the law of the land, but I dumped dental insurance a LONG time ago. It's not worth it. I just pay out of pocket. And if it's SERIOUS, it is no longer considered "dental". i.e. if you DO have health insurance, it covers "major" dental stuff. Kinda weird. I am on a "cleaning" plan with the local dentist. Very nice people. I pay $275 and that gets me two appointments during the year (every six months). One includes "cleaning" and the other includes cleaning and X-rays. So, to recap, I get TWO cleanings and x-rays for $275, with NO insurance involved. The price you are being quoted is really high, unless they are in a high rent area, which I suppose is always possible.

"Trinity" is a word used as shorthand by Christians to describe some biblical concept/belief, kinda like "rapture". However, the challenge becomes affirming that everyone who uses the word actually means the same thing everyone else who uses the word means. And it turns out that they usually don't. I just avoid using the word and like to say the bible says that Jesus and the father are one, just as my wife and I are one. Jesus was a perfect sacrifice for our sins, not because he is God, but because he was a perfect man and became the perfect sacrificial lamb according to the law, effectively completing it. The bible actually says there are two sons of God. Jesus and Adam. It's right there in black and white. (but I don't agree with the translation) How one wants to align your beliefs about the character of God based on this information is up to them, of course. The Good News is that Jesus paid the price!

Well it is true that Earthquakes and volcanoes and famines and plagues are not new.. But part of the end time descriptions include these things happening in increasing amounts.. Joel 2: KJV 30 "And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. {31} The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. {32} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." I believe the pillars of smoke mentioned in the above passage is pointing to explosive volcanic eruptions..

1 John 5: KJV {7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Jesus is the Word..

Years ago I had an aunt who was in it. But a few years ago I was looking at some websites and came across one called Grace Community or something like that. To my amazement, they said they used to be the Armstrong cult, but they realized he meant well but he was totally wrong in his teachings!! I was glad to hear that. There was a nice sermon on the site which I enjoyed very much. I do understand that some of the Armstrong people were not happy and continued with the false doctrines. I remember they wouldn't celebrate Easter, Christmas or holidays, wouldn't eat pork.... basically they went by the law rather than grace.

Understanding the Activity of Michael the Archangel in the Middle of the Seventieth Week In this brief post, I would like to make a strong case for Michael the archangel being the restrainer that Paul says is withholding the revelation of the man of sin until it is God's determined time. Michael's suitability to be the restrainer The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is he who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time. Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week. 1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1) Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3 1/2 years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week. 2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14) Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman) but she is hid and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week. 3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27) Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Dan 12 passage but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to. 4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10) 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians, knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week? I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed. Love the posts. Thanks for all the effort and keep up the good work.

Is this a new one or the same one one here that I already saw.

I have my one way ticket !

Let's get on the gospel train my ticket is paid for ,one way trip! Did you get yours?There's no return

Amen and amen , we're saved by grace and not by works so nobody boast! Jesus did it all,all to Him I own!

While the Bible is the final authority as to the truth and it is to test all things, some men are given gifts to teach and preach the word. There are many gifted writers that I like to read and listen to. How the word is planted in your heart is a personal between you and the Lord. There are certainly wolves in sheep clothing and yes ask and pray for discernment to weed the fields of the tares. It's all about your choice in the matter.

Hi Wayne, Thanks for sharing. Would you like to also share how you came to know the truth and see the errors. interested, Marilyn.

Many beat up on the church today because we have media that can highlight some bad practice and teachings. There are many churches that preaches the gospel, but is it the one that attendees want to hear. When shopping, you go to the places you get the best quality you can afford, so when seeking out a place of worship, you test the spirits there if it is in accordance to what you know to be sound doctrines. Many people also think or feel that the church should be tailor made to suite them and if not, then it is not a good place to be. It is satan's job to get men to avoid the church steps and it is man's job to rebuke his attempts to dissuade his plots. The church has many good values that promote a healthy child to adult nurturing. There is a all out war to battle for the hearts and minds of would be believers and believers and as it intensifies with the promotion of ungodly lifestyles with governments sanctioning laws to assist in those practices. Hardened sin is now being promoted as equality and the likes, and the future generations minds are being manipulated at a young age in the secular system. The bible said these days would come.

2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed I have just about had a fill of the critics here, of the very ones out there actually trying to do something constructive for our youth. All I hear is criticism after criticism, and one very LOUD CRITICIZER, who offer NOT any solutions, but point fingers at those in the arena of spiritual warfare, fighting the good fight, dedicating their time and efforts to the actual labor of love for the teaching of the the good news to the youth. Awana Flag Pledge I pledge allegiance to the Awana flag which stands for the Awana clubs, whose goal is to reach boys and girls with the gospel of Christ and train them to serve him. At my church, we started Awanas about thirty years ago. During this time, I have no idea how many lost souls are now saved, when attending the awanas club. Every Wednesday night, my wife picks up our grand kids to go to Wednesday night club meeting at church. Once a year, every year, all my kids, then my grand kids, learned to work in my shop building awana grand Prix race cars, to compete, learning how to put forth effort to get better results. I have a collection of all our families past racers. Memorizing scripture is priority, weekly reciting. It is a very large part of our church ministry, INVOLVING the youth in the sharing of the gospel. I have no idea of the people associated with awana higher ups that were attacked here and accused as bad, and I personally don't care. The results are in the pudding. It is a great program to involve the young at an early age and then in to young adults that are awana leaders. I have only heard praise of awanas club by the parents, especially non member parents, that allow their children the opportunity to hear the gospel. This forum is the ONLY time I have heard any criticism. By the way. Just so you know. Our awana head leader and her husband were killed during a home invasion by a young man. They were both stabbed multiple times, and the husband was air lifted but died shortly. We buried them last Friday. My wife and all the awana leaders and the youth, wore their awana jackets to honor a fallen sister.They were also foster care parents, like my family was, and we went on out of town trips for training together with our families. Their grown foster children attended. They both had a great love for the children, training them up as scripture tells us. So much time has been sacrificed by all the awana leaders over the years for the youth. It is a shame to see awanas labeled by other 'Christians' so unlovingly, ignorantly. It's better to keep the mouth shut, and thought a fool, than open it and remove all doubt. if ever there was a time I felt like leaving................

The churches that have active groups specifically for college age that have both social activities and Christ centered services are doing great. People that age seek out a church that has things that challenge them as Christians and promote growth, so they may try another denomination. Our young people finance their own mission trips to Africa and India and have learned to share their faith in community events like county fairs. So they are prepared to go abroad and do so as well. They serve as counselors in Christian camps, teach VBS and Sunday school classes They may hold their Bible studies in coffee shops, a place that is less threatening to unbelievers. Occasionally they attend Christian concerts as a group. We also have singles groups for those over 25, and another for older singles.

Those wandering around lamenting the state of the church instead of attending one working to serve God in it and being part of it will never know.

i am beginning to realise that the NT in regards to Paul is something well worth getting to grips with as there is so much material there. it seems that Paul was the bridge link i guess to the Jews and the Gentiles. no one else could have been so qualified. interesting post sister

Why did you quote these Bible verses to me? Am I deaf to hear the words in Gods book and blind? Are you implying that I be cut off? Please explain why you picked those verses for me?

- Actually, that is a wrong understanding. Here is the thing...... a lot of unbelievers as well as believers have misunderstood this concept...."taking the Lord's (or God's name) in vain" And all who have not understood this, misunderstand it exactly the same way. This is what they think it means... = "To take the Lord's name in Vain, is to use the Lord's name as curse word....." such as hearing "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" in a movie as an expression of frustration or anger or contempt. Or, the word "Gd-Dm".... they also think, when this is applied in the same manner, is "taking the Lord's name in vain"......., but this is not the case. So, what is the case?.....what is it exactly to take the Lord's name , in vain?? Well, you have to understand THIS PART of that verse....."To TAKE".... To take what?.....>"The LORD's NAME". And how do you take it?...."In VAIN".. Now, how to understand this, is very simple........ think of it like this......"how do you take a wife, or a husband"?.... You take them by a PLEDGE of TRUTH, and this pledge unites the 2 as ONE......, as that is how you "TAKE someone's name"......its a union., a pledge, and a "oneness". The woman changes her NAME to the Man's last name.....as she has by vow, by union, by earthly and later after consummation, spiritually TAKEN HIS NAME, as her name. = "2 have become one"...= NAME So, if you take a vow, a pledge, or the Lord's Name, to yourself, you have Joined him, in verbal and life, commitment.., exactly like a marriage. You've taken His NAME, as you are the BRIDE, and Jesus is the BRIDE GROOM, and the Bride takes the NAME of the Groom, when MARRIED, or when BORN AGAIN... See it? So, to do this in VAIN, is to be a FAKE. In other words, its someone who is PRETENDING to have a RELATIONSHIP and a Commitment with God and Christ, by taking their name, as if you and they are "ONE".., when in fact this person is NOT at all. It is not being a backslider, or a wayward believer, as they are "one" because they are born again INTO God and Christ as eternally "one". So this "taking the name in Vain" is more extreme then being a hypocrite, as its actually pretending to (take His Name) = pretending to belong to God. These are the ones who did the Christian deeds, talked the Christian talk, but were never born again, and Jesus said of these...."I NEVER KNEW YOU"..! SEE IT? It IS THAT someone who does not understand "grace through faith" or Titus 3:5, or Romans 3:21-28, and is instead engaged in trying to save themselves by works of self righteousness, and are actually not born again. THEY HAVE in THEIR OWN WAY, but not God's way (John 14:6), become a religious type, that has all the Christianese speech, and all the works , but all this is in VAIN, as they have not literally taken God's <>NAME<> to themselves, and are not one with God and Christ, because they are not truly BORN AGAIN.

To my way of thinking, Paul was a disciple, not in the sense that the 12 were, but later when his time came to serve Jesus, God Himself discipled him in Arabia for those 3 years. I think of myself as a disciple of Christ, along with all who are serious about following Jesus all our lives, because we have to be disciplined in our walk with Him - not only talking the talk, but walking the walk all the days of our lives. As we grow and mature in this discipline, and grow in our knowledge and love of our Lord, we are used by Him to reveal Himself to a world which needs Him more than it needs to breathe. Of course he became that great Apostle, separate and distinct from all the disciples, as his great previous learning enabled him to be used of God in an enlarged and different way.

. I know you're married? I would love to chat with your wife LOL

The ultimate source is Hell......nobody can read the Bible from the front to the back and come out a Catholic...thank God some people get saved DESPITE the farce of Catholicism.....

Hi, The Bible states many things, each of which when isolated from it's overall context may be used to justify most any precept desired. The Bible also says: May I not be so poor as to resent God nor so rich as to not need God. It tells of the servant that was scolded for not investing, and the blessing to one that did well taking financial risk. One can turn all things into allegory if they so desire, but I tend to think all most all if not all may be literally applied. The Bible speaks of a man that denied the call of Jesus with the excuse that he needed to first tend to his father's estate for his own benefit, even before his father had died. Jesus rebuked him severely, but does that mean no one is to have plans for inheritance, even when the Bible uses inheritance as a constant standard benefit of life both physical and spiritual? I buy into neither the prosperity gospel, nor the constant naysaying by people that (in my opinion) simply seek out misery as their company rather than get to working to better themselves, and to be better able to share of gain for the greater good to the glory of God. I see no glory to God in his servants being financially destitute and sitting around feeling glum about it. The sea change is occurring locally and nationally in spirit that manifests into physical benefit. The attitude of a few, hopefully Christian, leaders the unlikeliest that God uses to confound the wise seem to be causing a huge turnaround, a great sea swell of optimism where pessimissim and defeatism has ruled for almost a decade. Yet I still read of laments galore and of poverty from individuals that strangely have time to devote to sitting and messaging out their despair for others to share and echo. Then I look around and read of what is happening across this land America and I become very enthused at the opportunity there is for those that go to work not worrying about their sense of pride, nor their demand for fairness. They just go to work and then show value in their efforts. I see it at the local body of Christ where God has lead me to be for two decades now. I just recently retired at age 74 as God finally led me to do, and I see new young blood pick up and do with greater energy than is left in this old body the tasks God has placed for them to do for the fellow saints at the local body, each saint helping the others. I see resurgence in commerce, I see our own local saints in Christ Jesus having to turn down work as they are so busy already that they cannot take on any more for months and months to come. I see work that goes without workers, and I see employers having to change how they gain and keep employees, and I am encouraged that in this there will be fewer so poor they resent God and perhaps fewer with so much excess that they will have no need of Him. I also wonder and try to find what I may do with this presently broken body that may be of benefit at least to myself so that I do not become a burden, but also that I might be productive too. I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me. I do see this as the time of the signs! But to me it seems that the signs are pointing out how to go about doing things that are to be done, all to the glory of God. It is not a time to flee and hide and chatter teeth in anguish. It is a time of great opportunity. Opportunity is all about, sharing the eternal blessing to us from God by way of the shed blood of Jesus. Better to be found in the fields of the harvest and standing the post assigned by Jesus through the Holy Spirit than it is to be cowering doing nothing good for anyone including ones self. That is what I see. And I kinda like these rose colored hues as I trust in God for the provisions of this day and if there is tomorrrow for me then also for tomorrow once it comes. I only urge, if I can, others to try to see what is best for them and for them to not listen long to the naysayers the little anti-Christs seeking company for their own misery.

I'm going to second your comment, Willa. Pray for the Lord's protection but also talk to your doctor and get an exam to rule out any physical causes.

You are saying that we cannot use the Bible to witness to non-believers until the existence of God is proved to them? I wish so badly that you could have been at my church Sunday and heard the testimonies from our Gideon speaker about people who are saved by reading the Bible. I love to hear these testimonies. A Gideon team was in a prison not long ago for men who have life sentences. They were allowed to pass out Bibles to the men who would take one. One man yelled and screamed, "I'm not taking that book! Get away from me!" The Gideons cam back a couple of weeks later to talk to any of the men who wanted to discuss what they had been reading or to ask more about Christ and salvation. They saw the angry man. He was frightening looking. He yelled at them again, "Hey! Hey!" They were nervous. Then he said, "I didn't take one of your Bibles, but my cell mate did. HE CAN'T READ so he wanted me to read it to him and I got saved!!!" That's the supernatural power of the gospel. Another Gideon [business men who pass out and place Bibles all over the world] was in Japan not long ago. He was talking to a local preacher who was sharing his testimony with him. He said, "As a very young man, I was not saved and was a thief. That's how I made my way through life. I broke into a girl's school one night to find some money. Some of the girls woke up and began screaming. One of the girls threw something at my head and hit me with it. I grabbed it in my hand - why, I don't know - and escaped. It was a Bible. I kept it for a while - why, I don't know - but one day I began to read it and I saw my sin. I was saved and am now a pastor." The Bible is not "information" from God. It's a living, two-edged sword. It does not return to God void. It's had supernatural authority. Because it is the literal "word of God", it can be miraculously used as you see above. To convince someone of the existence of God without the Bible is futile. Yes, Romans 1 says that people have no excuse. But that doesn't mean to lay the Bible aside until you've convinced some and then and only then to share "information". God's word is infinitely more supernatural than mere information.

it is strange, but you say about thing, that doesn't relative to theme of thread. If we speak about apologetics, we must show rational facts for people, who doesn't accept Bible. How we can use Bible as autority, if unbeliever people doesn't accept this book? For start we must using facts that prove of God's existense. And that Bible is information from Him. Only after this we can use Bible, but no before.

Respectfully, is this thread an okay place to take a contrary stance? I was a big defender of pre-trib until some things struck me, one of them being: Pre-trib forces all kinds of jumping about in the gospel eschatons, but pre-wrath allows Matthew 24 and 25 et al to be read completely chronologically, verse 1 then 2 then 3 . . .

Greetings in the name of the lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, like you, many fail to see that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the second half of the seventieth week. The first is great tribulation upon the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers. The second is tribulation from God upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers. Get this figured out will go a long ways to leading you to a Biblical understanding of the end time order of events. The passages below emphasize the fact that there are two different unparalleled periods of tribulation. The first, the great tribulation (Daniel's time of trouble, Jacob's troubles) is the persecution of the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers; the second, the beginning of the day of the Lord, is God's wrath upon the those who had persecuted the elect and Israel. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When Jesus returns, the great tribulation, that time of trouble that Daniel spoke of (Dan 12:1) will be cut short (Matt 24:22). It is at that time that He will resurrect the dead in Christ (Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:4-6, 1Cor 15:23, 51-52) and send the angels to catch up those who are alive and remain together with them, into the clouds (Rev 1:7), to be with Him (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31). It is after we are safely at the Father's house (John 14:3), before the throne of God (Rev 7:9-17) that His wrath begins to be poured out (Rev 8, 9, 16-19) suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) on the very same day (Luke 17:26-30). It can be shown that there are two periods of tribulation which make up the second half of the week, the last 3½ years prior to Christ's literal, physical, millennial reign, upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. The explicit statements of the Scriptures below make it clear that there are two distinct unparalleled periods of tribulation in the second half of the week. When does the great tribulation begin? In the middle of the week Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. What comes after the great tribulation? The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel which is the precursor to Christ's return. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ---- Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. ---- Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. ---- Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? ---- Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ---- Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. --- Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. “If these passages describe the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31, and they do, then it is an indisputable fact that the day of the Lord cannot begin until the great tribulation is over.” God's wrath, at the beginning of the day of the Lord, doesn't begin until the elect (all believers in Jesus Christ) are removed from the earth, after the great tribulation. God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. When considering this verse, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. Here, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (ghay and katoikeo). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12). Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD: Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Note: Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints. John records concerning the two witnesses: Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ... Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Note: The earth-dwellers here rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do. Again, John uses this technical term concerning those who are deceived by the false prophet: Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Note: The earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24). Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the beast and receive his mark. Recognizing that the focus of the temptation is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation. What verses show that the great tribulation is the persecution of the elect and Israel? The persecution of Israel can readily be seen in many passages. The most spoken of today is likely Jer. 30:7 where the term “Jacob’s troubles” appears. Dan 12:1 can also rightly be speaking of the believing remnant of Israel. Jesus’ instruction in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, 25) has a decidedly Jewish flavor which must include the Jews. However, we must remember it is only believers who listen to the Master’s voice. Rev 12, decidedly shows us that Satan persecutes both the Israelites and believers in Jesus Christ when he is cast from Heaven to the earth in the middle of the week. There are many references to Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation. Rev 6:9-11 describes those martyred souls under the alter in Heaven crying out for vengeance, that would have to wait, until the rest of their brethren and fellowservants should be killed as they were. The innumerable multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are said to have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They are saved by the blood of the Lamb just like we are. The saints are said to overcome the wrath of Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death” (Rev 12:11). The deliverance is to be for those whose names are in the book (Dan 12:1). He will come the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). Jesus said that those that endured to the end shall be saved, and the context was the great tribulation. Again and again, we see deliverance or salvation in a physical sense for those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (1Th 4:16-). One of the best ways to know that the church is here during the great tribulation, is that the first resurrection involves the tribulation saints (Rev 20:4-6). Paul makes it very clear that there are only two resurrections to come (1Cor 15:23-24). “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power…” All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

I know Daniel, that that is the pre-trib narrative, but the one small problem with that narrative is that it is nowhere to be found in scripture. You say, the pre-trib changing will take place first, but you offer no verse that says that. That is understandable, since there aren't any. Asserting something to be true, does not make it so. Wanting it to be true, does not make it so. Inferring something to be true, does not make it so. The unfortunate thing about the pre-trib doctrine, is that is is not found in scripture, it is merely inferred by those who believe it, and who read the Bible through pre-trib spectacles looking for a way to support their faith in the doctrine. You say, the order is: 1 The pre-trib changing 2 those who become believers during the trib 3 they will be killed in the trib 4 they will be raised immortal at Rev 20 5 some of those believers during the trib will later populate the millennial kingdom as unchanged mortals. When I read the Bible, I see no trace of item 1. For item 2., I do agree that there are those, who come to faith during the trib, but the Bible does not say, that existing believers do not enter the trib, so I am forced to say there might be some who come to faith during the trib, in addition to those who were alive at it's beginning, and were not caught up beforehand in a pre-trib rapture which the Bible never describes. Item 3. I agree that at least some believers die during the tribulation, that is clear in scripture, and only those not paying attention to the New Testament, think otherwise, so good for you on that one. Item 4. Yes, not a problem. Rev 20 describes the first resurrection thusly: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." So good for you again. Item 5. Hmm, not sure where you are getting the idea, that it is surviving believers who are in the Millennium. I would say it is likely that there are survivors of the trib, who populate the Millennium. I doubt it is believers though, here is why: In 1st Thess 4, Paul tells his readers: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. So here Paul says that those Christians who have already died, God will bring with Jesus. Don't grieve no worried, God has it covered and Christ's return. 15 For this we say to you by the Lord's own word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. There it is stated in no uncertain terms, that those believers who were dead, will be with Jesus and God is bringing them with Jesus, at the coming of the Lord, before the believers alive at the time will be. Dead in Christ first, then the living. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Again, clear as a bell. Sequence is there spelled out as: 1. Jesus returns, coming on clouds, 2. the dead Christians will rise and meet, Jesus in the air, 3. the believers alive at that resurrection, will join risen believers in the air and be together with the Lord forever. Notice that nothing had to be imagined into that, it was all spelled out, all literal. Of course there are a few things missing here so far, no worries, the Bible spells them out also. For example: 1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. So, now we see the changing you spoke of, except that it is and the rapture that Paul spoke of in 1st Thess 4, that we just read, and that Paul says happens to believers after the resurrection. To bad we do not know when that resurrection happens, in th sequence of thing. Wait a minute, we do! You mentioned that in Rev. 20, let's look: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. OK, what element do we see here in the participants of the first resurrection. The were beheaded Why, because they had a testimony of Jesus, so they are Christians. They were in the tribulation, we can tell, because the refused to worship the beast and did not receive the mark. So, now we have the following sequence, according to scripture: 1. Daniel's 70th week, which includes the great tribulation 2. As discussed earlier in the thread, the abomination of desolation, that will occur in the middle of the week, and that is where Jesus called it great tribulation. 3. the antichrist is in power, and demands worship 4. believers refuse to worship the beast, and are martyred. 5. immediately after the tribulation of those days: Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, we see the glorious return of Christ, so Paul agrees with Jesus (I think we should also) that He will return after the tribulation, and that then, we have the resurrection, and the gathering of the saints, who meet the lord in the air, etc. This scenario contradicts nothing. It's sequence is testified to by scripture. It takes nothing out of context, and it does not imagine things like secret and or invisible comings of Christ, that the Bible never mentions. However, experience suggest, that most who object to this Biblical scenario, do not care that it has evidence that supports it without invention, or contradiction, many will reject it anyway, preferring manmade, ear tickling, doctrines of teachers that we were told to expect, in the last days. 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires I know this has to happen, so it is okay, but I do not have to be an ear tickler, so I do not mind posting this for those, who have not yet, invested in the pre-trib rapture. Daniel, I am curious though, you cited verses Rev 14:12,13 as though that was suppose to reveal that God will not protect His chosen, I guess? 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them. If that is you point, I do not disagree, what I see there, is that the church WILL suffer persecution, and there is not pre-trib rescue event. I also see, that there is a blessing for those saint, who do persevere, and die. I don't think I will be around for that, but if it is God's will, I would like to have the honor of suffering and dying for him, beats wasting a perfectly good death on old age!

What makes you so sure? I make questions and statements the go against the grain so we may see the error of thinking taught by the established Church No one corrects me which shows there are errors. This puts me outside the click of established thinking. I would like Gideon's view but he seems to stay with in the click. A click Is like a wall that shuts others out even if they speak the truth.